Can POC pass the ball????

steelbar

Every time POC takes it into contact, it goes to ground, is he capable of passing??????

RichTea

steelbar wrote: »

Every time POC takes it into contact, it goes to ground, is he capable of passing??????

No it doesn't, yes he is.

zAbbo

I wouldn't be totally dismissive of POC, but there are certainly doubts over his ability under pressure.

His handling has always been a weak point, his supposed strengths are lineout and leadership.

Being serious, I think he's a poor leader and at times when he's let himself down have been Lions05 and RWC07 - you could also point to individual games but I don't think he is good enough to be the captain or starting lock on this tour.

bleg

zAbbo wrote: »

Being serious, I think he's a poor leader and at times when he's let himself down have been Lions05 and RWC07 - you could also point to individual games but I don't think he is good enough to be the captain or starting lock on this tour.

troll

RichTea

zAbbo wrote: »

I don't think he is good enough to be the captain or starting lock on this tour.

Shaw? Donners? Hines? Croft? Don't see any of them doing the job at lock that Paul O'Connell could do.

thomond2006

zAbbo wrote: »

Being serious, I think he's a poor leader and at times when he's let himself down have been Lions05 and RWC07 - you could also point to individual games but I don't think he is good enough to be the captain or starting lock on this tour.

Okay, we'll arrange to send Steve Borthwick instead.

Podge_irl

POC is clearly an excellent lock forward, but the team have to be playing the right kind of game for his real skills to shine through. He's not especially capable of playing a fast tempo offoading game for example, as though he can sometimes pull if off, he simply doesn't have the hands to do it consistently.

zAbbo

zAbbo wrote: »

I wouldn't be totally dismissive of POC, but there are certainly doubts over his ability under pressure.

His handling has always been a weak point, his supposed strengths are lineout and leadership.

Being serious, I think he's a poor leader and at times when he's let himself down have been Lions05 and RWC07 - you could also point to individual games but I don't think he is good enough to be the captain or starting lock on this tour.

I agree with alot of that but to say he isnt good enough to be starting is crazy talk.

spoon

In my opinion, POC has near enough the perfect skill set for a 2nd row forward. He is brilliant in the line out and is a menace in the ruck but he's never going to run from his own 22 out pacing poeple or throw a pass to the quality of a good scrum-half.

zAbbo

Some of you guys are a bit touchy

Not much point debating this one.

/me leaves thread.

zAbbo

zAbbo wrote: »

Some of you guys are a bit touchy

Not much point debating this one.

/me leaves thread.

Dont leave but please explain why he shouldnt be starting,I really want to know who you would start in second row ahead of him?

Podge_irl

spoon wrote: »

throw a pass to the quality of a good scrum-half.

I'd be happy if he could throw a pass to the quality of a good second row. Its pretty much the only clear weakness to his game.

wixfjord

Just looking at matfield, who basically set up a try, and botha, for the bulls, both these guys are great ball carriers and lineout operators and have better hands than o connell, and the other lions second rows.

thomond2006

Stupid thread imo.

Enough player bashing.

If POC doesn't pass well all tour, fair enough. It was only one game.

In fairness, apart from ROG, Roberts, Byrne at the start and Wyn Jones, Flutey and Phillips coming off the bench, nobody was good.

danthefan

He's not really a skillful player imo, that's not his game. He does a lot of other things well though, and he's been a shoe-in to start the tests since the 6N.

thehighground

wixfjord wrote: »

Just looking at matfield, who basically set up a try, and botha, for the bulls, both these guys are great ball carriers and lineout operators and have better hands than o connell, and the other lions second rows.

Matfield & Botha are playing together for years. That is the first game that POC has ever played with that tight 5. New hooker, new lock partnership, new lifter.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Matfield & Botha are playing together for years. That is the first game that POC has ever played with that tight 5. New hooker, new lock partnership, new lifter.

I'd say O'Connell's the third best lock in the world. After those two. They're unnaturally good.

O'Connell's not a bad player, having a go at him's a tad silly. Grand there might be doubts, but he's proven himself on many an occasion.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'd say O'Connell's the third best lock in the world. After those two. They're unnaturally good.

O'Connell's not a bad player, having a go at him's a tad silly. Grand there might be doubts, but he's proven himself on many an occasion.

Gert Small has no doubt about POC (& DOC) in a Q&A one some SA website.

Q: What are your thoughts on Ireland’s pack?
A: (Gert Smal): They’ve done well over the course of the season, although there is room for improvement. There’s a good balance of senior and junior players which the world’s best teams strive for. Our lock pairing is one of the best in the world and we’ve got a solid front and back row. The ingredients are there for sustained success.

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/05/13/smals-slam-success/

themont85

thehighground wrote: »

Gert Small has no doubt about POC (& DOC) in a Q&A one some SA website.

Q: What are your thoughts on Ireland’s pack?
A: (Gert Smal): They’ve done well over the course of the season, although there is room for improvement. There’s a good balance of senior and junior players which the world’s best teams strive for. Our lock pairing is one of the best in the world and we’ve got a solid front and back row. The ingredients are there for sustained success.

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/05/13/smals-slam-success/

Eh one of the best, not the best. Botha and Matfield are the best pairing going atm.

bigeasyeah

He s barely able to catch it.

danthefan

I think it would be sensible to see how the tests go before declaring who the best locks in the world are.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Gert Small has no doubt about POC (& DOC) in a Q&A one some SA website.

Q: What are your thoughts on Ireland’s pack?
A: (Gert Smal): They’ve done well over the course of the season, although there is room for improvement. There’s a good balance of senior and junior players which the world’s best teams strive for. Our lock pairing is one of the best in the world and we’ve got a solid front and back row. The ingredients are there for sustained success.

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/05/13/smals-slam-success/

One of. ^^

thehighground

themont85 wrote: »

Eh one of the best, not the best. Botha and Matfield are the best pairing going atm.

Well there are a couple of posters here who are fairly critical of POC (and just don't rate his partner DOC, at all). Smal, as Irish coach, by picking the POC & DOC partnership out of the whole pack, says a fair bit about the pair of them, considering how highly rated most posters would regard Ferris, Wallace & Heaslip and Smal think they are just 'solid'.

7mountpleasant

This thread is just another example of why i look at this forum less and less,

Judgement Day

When can we expect a thread on how bad ROG was today?

Stev_o

Judgement Day wrote: »

When can we expect a thread on how bad ROG was today?

ROG was one of the best players on the pitch couldn't really fault him.

Stev_o

Stev_o wrote: »

ROG was one of the best players on the pitch couldn't really fault him.

Its never stopped people moaning about him before!

Stev_o

Deleted User wrote: »

Its never stopped people moaning about him before!

Well if the Lions lost he'd be first on the list to blame then

Gelio

Please block this thread

anonymous_joe

ajeffares wrote: »

Please block this thread

Meh.

It's not a great thread, in fact it's silly, but we can't be so precious.

What annoys me about the Earls and O'Connel threads today are how knee-jerk they are - both threads have a point, but are ruined by exaggeration.

No, Paul O'Connell doesn't pass as well as Johnny Sexton or O'Driscoll, that's obvious, but it's viable to say that he doesn't have the hands to play a high tempo off-loading game as the New Zealanders or Saffers might. That will begin to effect tactics, etc, and how we approach games. It's worth talking about, talking about O'Connell being shíte or something is silly though.

zAbbo

Aarav Sweet Backgammon wrote: »

Dont leave but please explain why he shouldnt be starting,I really want to know who you would start in second row ahead of him?

Thought I'd offer some explanation.

Just a quick note, I don't agree with these type of knee jerk threads, and my opinion on POC is not based purely on yesterdays game alone.

With this tour, and POC being captain and presumably a starter as well - I think that the balance of the back row and his second row partner needs to be absolute spot on, along with a game plan that suits.

In my opinion, AWJ is the best lock on tour, a more rounded player and someone who can lead his forwards.

Yesterday POC was silent and one dimensional, sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't - and taking the ball up every time you touch it isn't going to work against SA, it doesn't even work against teams like Namibia and Georgia (RWC07).

He was good in the lineout, as you'd expect - but as a captain, no plan B and certainly no inspiration to those around him who were really struggling(Blair, Earls, Rees, Sheridan even D. Wallace).

I hope POC gets a chance to see the Bulls in the S14 yesterday, he'll know he needs to improve himself and inspire his forwards to produce something a hell of a lot better than yesterdays inept performance.

As for who I'd start instead of POC, AWJ obviously, partnered with one from the rest - whoever puts their hand up and puts in the best performances over the warmup games. Also depends on the backrow lineout option, as Croft could start at 6 or even force himself in a lock position.

NickNolte

You've got to love the boards.ie rugby forum. Where the unwashed masses come to sprout their opinions based on a single game of rugby.

Serenity Now!

anonymous_joe wrote: »

What annoys me about the Earls and O'Connel threads today are how knee-jerk they are - both threads have a point, but are ruined by exaggeration

Its typical of the fickle, ever-mind-changing, Irish rugby union afficionado.
I can remember folk knocking Elsom and Mafi when they shockingly didn't produce the goods in their first games for Leinster and Munster respectively (oh the horror! :eek: ). Hayes was a joke of a prop to many but now is a legend. Fitzgerald "can't tackle" yet is one third of a monster tackling back-three for Ireland. Bowe "has no pace". O'Driscoll has been "found out" yet is now coming to the conclusion of his greatest season ever.

Its pathetic and a good reason to just post on day before a match and day after given that people will post any old tosh (journos included) in the interim.

steelbar

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Its typical of the fickle, ever-mind-changing, Irish rugby union afficionado.
I can remember folk knocking Elsom and Mafi when they shockingly didn't produce the goods in their first games for Leinster and Munster respectively (oh the horror! :eek: ). Hayes was a joke of a prop to many but now is a legend. Fitzgerald "can't tackle" yet is one third of a monster tackling back-three for Ireland. Bowe "has no pace". O'Driscoll has been "found out" yet is now coming to the conclusion of his greatest season ever.

Its pathetic and a good reason to just post on day before a match and day after given that people will post any old tosh (journos included) in the interim.

The reason why I started this thread was not to bash POC, who has been a great servent to Irish rugby and deserves all the caps he has and is going to get.

But I think he is very one dimensional and predictible as a ball carrier. You know he is going to take a crash ball as first receiver and go to deck. Having said that he retains the ball 9 times out of 10 and it does tie in a few of the opposition.

In the set pieces,clearing out rucks, he is good,no one can deny that

He is a good leader (but at the risk of annoying a few people) he has been leading a winning team for a long time now, and Im not sure how well he reacted when his team started losing, ie the semi against leinster, what munster were doing wasnt working and still they didnt change their game plan, and then similairly yesterday. Where as BOD as been through the mill,between Leinster and Ireland

I know you cant judge a player on one game and yesterday would of been tough,alot of new bodies, new calls etc, but then look at the Baa Baa's.....


But he is a great player, he deserves his shot as Lions captain, I just hope he learns from this expierence and maybe doesnt look to carry as much ball!!!

Serenity Now!

steelbar wrote: »

But I think he is very one dimensional and predictible as a ball carrier. You know he is going to take a crash ball as first receiver and go to deck. Having said that he retains the ball 9 times out of 10 and it does tie in a few of the opposition.

In the set pieces,clearing out rucks, he is good,no one can deny that

So he breaks the gainline, keeps possession, tackles endlessly, clears out rucks, calls and wins lineout ball? Thats his job. He's a lock forward and he's excellent at those facets of play hence his being a natural starter for the side as skipper or not.

anonymous_joe

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Its typical of the fickle, ever-mind-changing, Irish rugby union afficionado.
I can remember folk knocking Elsom and Mafi when they shockingly didn't produce the goods in their first games for Leinster and Munster respectively (oh the horror! :eek: ). Hayes was a joke of a prop to many but now is a legend. Fitzgerald "can't tackle" yet is one third of a monster tackling back-three for Ireland. Bowe "has no pace". O'Driscoll has been "found out" yet is now coming to the conclusion of his greatest season ever.

Its pathetic and a good reason to just post on day before a match and day after given that people will post any old tosh (journos included) in the interim.

You're right there. I've been guilty of it before too, I think we all have.

I think it's simply the fact that it's very hard to think in terms of games over game. Like, it's easier to say X had a good game against ITaly in the 6 Nations, and a bad game against Y, rather than to say overall they were ok. O'Gara in particular has had a lot of that - people focus on one game as proof that he's either the worst player in the world or the best. There's no middle ground.

NickNolte wrote: »

You've got to love the boards.ie rugby forum. Where the unwashed masses come to sprout their opinions based on a single game of rugby.

What you have to remember is that most people are seeing a side of O'Connell in a game like this they've never seen before. How often have Munster lost with O'Connell captaining them? How often has O'Connell needed to prove himself to a new group of players? (And before anyone says he doesn't need to prove himself, well, duh, everyone knows he's amazing at what he does, but it's up to him to prove that he's a cut above. As a captain, there's a lot of pressure on him in particular, because he can't really be dropped. I'd love to see what AWJ beside DOC could do, but that can't happen in the big games, because O'Connell's the captain - he has the added burden of extra attention and pressure.

Do I think he'll cope? Probably.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

So he breaks the gainline, keeps possession, tackles endlessly, clears out rucks, calls and wins lineout ball? Thats his job. He's a lock forward and he's excellent at those facets of play hence his being a natural starter for the side as skipper or not.

He's a fantastic player, but a lot of people expect him to be more than that during this tour.