Was Alice Kyteler guilty?

Chris Lowe

Not of witchcraft - of murder. She was accused of poisoning her four husbands. In his biography of Erzsébet Báthory Tony Thorne suggests this on the basis of her last husband, John le Poer, suffering the loss of his hair and nails which may be symptoms of slow poisoning.

The only other evidence of this, as far as I can see, is the contemporary account of the trial and a reference to an earlier accusation in the patent rolls of Edward 1 (1303) which says that accusation was malicious. The account of the trial was written by her enemies so it would obviously be biased against her.

So was she a serial poisoner? I've wondered about this myself, strip away the witchcraft and it is a plausible explanation. On the other hand the charges could have been trumped up.

What does everyone else think?

Chris Lowe.

Joe1919

I cant give you a direct answer to this question but there are some sources available on 'Google Books'. Examples of background material are worth checking are James Graves and John Prim, The history, architecture, and antiquities of the cathedral church of St. Canice, Kilkenny, (Dublin, 1857). Also Graves, James and Prim, John, 'The history, architecture, and antiquities of the city of Kilkenny', in The journal of the Kilkenny and south-east of Ireland archaeological society, Vol II, new series, (Dublin, 1858-59) also A contemporary narrative of the proceedings against Dame Alice Kyteler ...
By Alice Kyteler, Richard de Ledrede, Thomas Wright, all freely available.
The historian John Bradley is a native and his books might be worth checking out.

I do have have some knowledge of Kilkenny, in terms of its origins.
A castle and bridge is said to have been erected by the Earl in the twelfth century and the town is said to have received its charter around 1207. The traditional starting date for St. Canices Cathederal is thought to be 1250 , it was completed in 1275.. ..... The Normans had made a landing on Ireland and Ireland was in the process of change. The new Cathedral at St. Canices represented the scale and grandeur of a different church, a new episcopacy and the power and social rank of the bishop. "It was normal policy for the invaders to replace part or all of the existing cathedrals with larger and grander structures." .... The new bishop would be immersed in affairs of the state, in administration of royal and ecclesiastical courts and in finance and diplomacy.

The point I'm making is that Kilkenny had really only just gone throuigh the process of becoming a Norman town and with their new Cathederal and Castle, there were some cultural changes. The last 'Irish' bishop was Felix O' Delany and he was replaced by a Norman Bishop. (Many years previously)
However, its possible to read to much into things and it may be just the old story of the wife fed up with the husband.

Chris Lowe

Thanks

Joe1919 wrote: »

A contemporary narrative of the proceedings against Dame Alice Kyteler ...
By Alice Kyteler, Richard de Ledrede, Thomas Wright,

Thanks I'm familiar with this one it's in Latin (do any smileys represent the aww sentiment maybe this one:() I have read a translation of it and it's very useful.

Joe1919 wrote: »

it may be just the old story of the wife fed up with the husband.

or three of them

Joe1919

The period (around 1300) is very interesting in terms of Ireland having gone through a 'building boom' and Renaissance period. This period would end with Edward Bruce's invasion in 1315 which brought some famine and general ruin and this, followed by the Black Death in 1349 brought building to a standstill for over half a century.

Dont forget to read The Malleus Maleficarum before going witch hunting.
http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/
There is a full online English edition under 'downloads'.

Nitochris

OK this threads been dead for a while, I'm just reviving it to let people know that today's Irish Independent has a Halloween themed story on Dame Alice.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/art-may-be-imitating-life-in-one-uncanny-portrait-1929946.html

convert

Was actually just about to mention Claire Nolan's book when I saw the thread title, and post a link to the article. A bit freaky....