Christianity killing traditions

랴연

Very simple question.

I'm living in an Asian country with a unique and beautiful culture. For one simple example, they bow to eachother on the street (small bow) and they bow to very high level people or dead people to show respect with a big bow (think buddhist style).

This bowing culture is not religious in any way, its related to confucianism.

Most of the Christian churches have banned their members from taking a bow (big one) because its unchristian.

I'm really looking for an honest answer here. Do you agree with this ?

conbhui

there is bowing in catholic churches. when you pass the alter you must neel on one nee and bow.

랴연

conbhui wrote: »

there is bowing in catholic churches. when you pass the alter you must neel on one nee and bow.

Sorry I forgot to say, not the Catholic church, they are ok with it. Its most other Christian churches, I'm not sure which ones exactly but all the evangelists at least.

Fanny Cradock

I personally have nothing against bowing. I, too, am living in an Asian country and take no offence when people bow to me with their palms placed together in front of their face. Sure I'll probably be doing it myself in a while.

However, I find the thread title to be quite sensationalist. Christianity isn't killing the tradition of bowing. According to yourself, some denominations (you don't know how many but still maintain that it is most of them) appear to be actively dissuading their congregations from bowing. And what of it? If Christians choose not to bow then so be it. If they like bowing then I'm sure they will go on bowing no matter what the church says. And non-Christians will continue bowing irrespective of whatever a Christian church says.

As for bowing being based on Confucianism - I'll take your word on that - why would anybody take exception to certain Christian denominations not wanting to promote aspects of a philosophical, political and quasi-religious system that, according to my admittedly limited understanding, is largely incompatible with Christianity?

I don't believe that anyone should be a slave to traditions, especially if the tradition is superseded by a new way of living.

랴연

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

However, I find the thread title to be quite sensationalist. Christianity isn't killing the tradition of bowing. According to yourself, some denominations (you don't know how many but still maintain that it is most of them) appear to be actively dissuading their congregations from bowing.

If by dissuading you mean telling their congregations that its akin to devil worship then yes.

And what of it? If Christians choose not to bow then so be it.

Because its hurting noone and the only reason I can see that they are doing it is because the Confucianism traditions are closely associated with buddhism which most Christians denominations here hate.

If they like bowing then I'm sure they will go on bowing no matter what the church says.

My mother in law, who has been a 'little' buddhist all her life has stopped bowing because her new daughter in laws church says its wrong. The woman herself doesn't care.

I find it extremely disturbing because I don't want to see the traditions and culture to disappear here. Yes I care more about it then a lot of the locals, use that if you want.

And non-Christians will continue bowing irrespective of whatever a Christian church says.

I really am feeling completely beaten down here.

As for bowing being based on Confucianism - I'll take your word on that - why would anybody take exception to certain Christian denominations not wanting to promote aspects of a philosophical, political and quasi-religious system that, according to my admittedly limited understanding, is largely incompatible with Christianity?

Its not religious, there is nothing in the world stopping one from being a muslim, jew, buddhist, taoist, christian etc and also having confucian ideas.

And even if confucianism was religious, I am not talking about confucianism, I am talking about the simple act of bowing to show respect to the dead (in particular) which is a tiny part of confucian idea's. This is something that everyone in this country including atheists/muslims/buddhists except of course most christians do.

If an atheist for example does it how is that religious ?

I don't believe that anyone should be a slave to traditions, especially if the tradition is superseded by a new way of living.

Taking a big bow to the dead is akin to shaking someones hand in the west to say how sorry you are for their loss. Its not religious.

The only reason some people are stopping it is because of the christian churches.

I really am upset by this and I honestly do not want to argue, I just want someone to understand what I'm trying to say.

Fanny Cradock

Well, with all respect, this is a discussion board, so you must expect to have your views challenged.

Do I personally think that bowing is akin to devil worship? No. But then again, it is up to the individual to accept or reject such a notion if that is indeed what they are being taught. I've done a quick search on this and I haven't been able to find anything. Perhaps you could provide some links?

I never stated that bowing was religious. Rather, I said that Confucianism could, amongst other things, be considered semi-religious. As you where the first to mention how bowing was associated with Confucianism (despite later admitting it is also associated with religions such as Buddhism), I'm unsure why you are now puling back form that position and focusing on bowing to the dead.

As I have stated, bowing doesn't bother me at all, but maybe the Christian denominations in your neck of the woods feel they have a justification for encouraging their congregations to stop the practice if they believe the act carries with it something more than a simple formality or an age old tradition. In other words, maybe they feel that bowing isn't always equivalent to a handshake.

I'm sorry that this upsets you so deeply and causes you pain. But it seems to me that there are much greater injustices in the world then Christians choosing not to bow. Sadly, some of these injustices are even perpetrated by apparent Christians in the name of their belief. Maybe the attitude of some Christians towards Buddhists could be considered an example.

I do understand what you are saying, I just don't share your concerns.

dvpower

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't believe that anyone should be a slave to traditions, especially if the tradition is superseded by a new way of living.

One might direct that advise at Christianity itself.

I can't see anything wrong with this tradition of bowing; seems like a small respectful act that should be encouraged if anything. Christianity has a history of incorporating other's traditions. I'd have to wonder if discouringing it is policy/doctrine or just some local over zealous preachers.

Mickeroo

Big difference between choosing not to bow and being told not to methinks.

JimiTime

If the bowing is a mannerly mark of respect, then it would be actually be 'unchristian' not to pay respect where it is due. If the bow is somehow taking glory from God, or is an acknowledgement of a false god etc, then the Christian may be in a pickle. Paul says, when he is in Greece he is Greek. In Rome he is Roman etc. A Christian is called to be respectful to their cultural surrounding obviously within reason. By the sounds of it, this particular group sound like they want to be a bit rebellious. Then again though, I don't know what how innocuous the bowing is, so I don't want to condemn them in my ignorance.

Tabnabs

Christianity has historically had many intolerant adherents who will attempt to eradicate the customs and beliefs of the indigenous peoples. Theodosius I, Charlemagne, Olaf Tryggvason, Francis Xavier, the Inquisition, the London Missionary Society (Tahiti 1797), The Dawes Act of 1887 to name but a tiny few.

The list goes on and on and even today we see evidence of this behaviour continuing.

PDN

Culture (and traditions) change all the time. I don't see any problem with that - unless we want to live in a museum.

랴연

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Perhaps you could provide some links?

Will do tomorrow.

I never stated that bowing was religious. Rather, I said that Confucianism could, amongst other things, be considered semi-religious. As you where the first to mention how bowing was associated with Confucianism (despite later admitting it is also associated with religions such as Buddhism), I'm unsure why you are now puling back form that position and focusing on bowing to the dead.

In Buddhism, bowing to the Buddha is a huge part of the religion. For example, when you go to a temple, you should bow to the buddha.

I didn't say bowing came from buddhism or confucianism. I said bowing is related to confucianism in that confucianism is about respect for elders/people in higher authority and you must bow to them to show that respect.

Confucianism, in its true form has nothing to do with religion. In practice, some people mix Confucianism idea's with other religions, including Christianity but this is not the point.

People here who are completely 100% atheist will bow to show respect, its polite. When I meet someone bowing (small bow) is the equivalent of shaking hands.

Bowing to the dead (or grandparents during special occasions) is a large bow, again its 100% about showing respect. It has nothing to do with buddhism or any other religion.

It 'CAN' have something to do with religion if performing a particular ceremony here which could be considered ancestor worship, but it also can mean nothing more then showing respect for your dead ancestors.

Maybe the attitude of some Christians towards Buddhists could be considered an example.

I believe thats one of the main causes. Many of the christian churches here are extremely anti-buddhist.

랴연

PDN wrote: »

Culture (and traditions) change all the time. I don't see any problem with that - unless we want to live in a museum.

Probably going to get me banned but why am I not a bit surprised with your response ?

Would you be happy if the entire world were Christian and all these age old practices, religious and philosophical were abandoned completely ?

Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that people are using your religion to force people to stop an age old practice for the simple fact its not 'western' and it is an action traditionally related to Buddhism/Confucianism and not Christianity ?

My wife is an atheist and she bows because its her culture, not anything to do with her religion. But if she ever took up with one of these Christian churches she could no longer bow.

Please show me just once that Christians are not as fanatical as I think.

O'Coonassa

랴연 wrote: »

Many of the christian churches here are extremely anti-buddhist.

They're just sore that Siddhartha beat Jesus to the whole walking on water sideshow.

PDN

랴연 wrote: »

Probably going to get me banned but why am I not a bit surprised with your response ?

Why should anyone be banned for being surprised or not surprised?

Would you be happy if the entire world were Christian and all these age old practices, religious and philosophical were abandoned completely ?

I would be happy if everyone in the world became a true Christian, but I doubt very much if it will happen, so it's about as relevant as wondering whether I would happy if all the mountains in Ireland were made out of chocolate.

I am absolutely indifferent as to whether customs about bowing to each other etc. die out or not.

Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that people are using your religion to force people to stop an age old practice for the simple fact its not 'western' and it is an action traditionally related to Buddhism/Confucianism and not Christianity ?

I don't see that anyone is being forced to do anything. If they make those choices then that's up to them. I don't expect Asian Christians to pass judgement on my cultural habits, and I don't pass judgement on them.

My wife is an atheist and she bows because its her culture, not anything to do with her religion.

Good for her. If it makes her happy then long may she continue.

But if she ever took up with one of these Christian churches she could no longer bow.

If she chooses to make those choices then more power to her elbow. I'm a live and let live kind of guy.

Please show me just once that Christians are not as fanatical as I think.

I doubt if anything I say or don't say will make any difference to your stereotypes.

Handsome Bob

랴연 wrote: »

Very simple question.

I'm living in an Asian country with a unique and beautiful culture. For one simple example, they bow to eachother on the street (small bow) and they bow to very high level people or dead people to show respect with a big bow (think buddhist style).

This bowing culture is not religious in any way, its related to confucianism.

Most of the Christian churches have banned their members from taking a bow (big one) because its unchristian.

I'm really looking for an honest answer here. Do you agree with this ?

When you say high level what exactly do you mean? Do you mean in the sense of social class? If so, it sounds like a tradition inspired by the caste system, and I can't for the life of me understand why you would begrudge christian churches telling their followers that they don't have show signs of inferiority by bowing to their "superiors".

랴연

LZ5by5 wrote: »

When you say high level what exactly do you mean? Do you mean in the sense of social class? If so, it sounds like a tradition inspired by the caste system, and I can't for the life of me understand why you would begrudge christian churches telling their followers that they don't have show signs of inferiority by bowing to their "superiors".

Confucianism is not a caste system in the sense of the Indian system, its not about being inferior or superior. Its having respect for someone because of various factors. e.g > In English you wouldn't talk to the president of Ireland like you would talk to Paddy down the road.

The big bow for example is reserved only for the dead or if to show respect to ones parents/grandparents. Theres a 'medium bow' (my term for it) where you bow your head quite noticeably to someone if they are much older then you or in a much higher position (the CEO of your company for example).

And the Christian churches objections to the big bow has nothing to do with the above anyways. The Asian language here has an informal, a formal, a polite and an honorific system wherein they have different verbs or the verb changes depending on how polite your supposed to be to someone.

informal - only friends
formal - strangers
polite - strangers (more polite than formal)
honorific - elder people/people with very high status (your grandparents or CEO/Boss of your company)

The Christian churches have no problem with the above and in fact use it themselves. i.e > The pastor and God would be referred to using the honorific style of the language.

랴연

PDN wrote: »

I am absolutely indifferent as to whether customs about bowing to each other etc. die out or not.

Even if they are been forced out because of people misusing your religion to do so ?

I don't see that anyone is being forced to do anything. If they make those choices then that's up to them. I don't expect Asian Christians to pass judgement on my cultural habits, and I don't pass judgement on them.

So their pastor telling his congregation that if they do so they are going against God is not been forced ?

I doubt if anything I say or don't say will make any difference to your stereotypes.

Howabout showing some tolerence and at least show people you don't agree when people are misusing the religion you hold so dear ?

philologos

랴연 wrote: »

Even if they are been forced out because of people misusing your religion to do so ?

As PDN said, traditions change, they've changed in the West and they are likely to be changed in Asia too. I do however think that you are being incredibly sensationalist. Your posts have merely consisted with groans about Christianity in South Korea I take it, is there no good done in the name of Christianity in South Korea? Is that the image you are leading us to believe?

랴연 wrote: »

So their pastor telling his congregation that if they do so they are going against God is not been forced ?

No, they aren't being forced. They can choose to either, listen to the pastor, or investigate for themselves.

랴연 wrote: »

How about showing some tolerance and at least show people you don't agree when people are misusing the religion you hold so dear ?

Are you addressing PDN here or?

Christians do tolerate others, what your issue seems to be here is that South Koreans who follow Christianity are deciding not to carry out this practice any more. So what? Anyone else is still entitled to do this bowing thing. Why must you insist that Christians should have to do it? From what I have read from you, I don't think this is misuse. I'd love to go to South Korea and see for myself mind.

How about showing some tolerance, eh?

PDN

랴연 wrote: »

Even if they are been forced out because of people misusing your religion to do so ?

I don't see how anything is being forced out.

BTW, do you wax indignant about Irish traditions getting 'forced out' - like people crossing themselves when they walk past a church? Or is your passion for preserving traditions confined to exotic foreign customs that appeal to the tourist in you?

So their pastor telling his congregation that if they do so they are going against God is not been forced ?

No, it's not. Evangelical Christians know that they can disagree with their pastor and, if they want, they can always vote with their feet and go to another church. It happens all the time over different issues.

In the end, if people choose to stop bowing then they do it because that is their decision - and who are you to condemn them for that?

Howabout showing some tolerence and at least show people you don't agree when people are misusing the religion you hold so dear ?

I'm the one who is being tolerant in this debate. I am perfectly tolerant of those who wish to continue bowing and also of those who choose to stop bowing.

You, unfortunately, are the one who appears to be extremely intolerant. You are condemning Asian Christians because they make a perfectly reasonable choice to jettison a tradition that they no longer wish to be bound by.

wolfsbane

I'm ignorant of the cultural nuances involved, so forgive me if this is irrelevant.

Seems to me the only justification on a ban would be if a bow were meant as a religious act rather than a token of respect for those in superior postitions to ourselves - parents, rulers, etc.

A religious bow would violate the commandment to worship God alone. Some cultures worship their ancestors and/or heads of state. Christians can never justly say, Caesar is Lord.

Mickeroo

PDN wrote: »

You, unfortunately, are the one who appears to be extremely intolerant. You are condemning Asian Christians because they make a perfectly reasonable choice to jettison a tradition that their pastor no longer wishes them to be bound by.

Fixed that for you.

I agree with you in that some people would not do everything their pastor says, but there's also people who would flip everyone the bird if they thought it would keep them out of hell because their pastor told them so.

OP, would it be seen as highly disrespectful not to bow to people in these situations?

PDN

Mickeroo wrote: »

Made a balls of that for you.

Two can play at that game.

Mickeroo

PDN wrote: »

Two can play at that game.

I am in awe of your vastly superior linguistic skills yet again. :P

랴연

Jakkass wrote: »

As PDN said, traditions change, they've changed in the West and they are likely to be changed in Asia too.

Of course they will and thats not an issue at all. The issue is that they are been forced to change or at very least coerced.

....is there no good done in the name of Christianity in South Korea? Is that the image you are leading us to believe?

Of course there is. It gives people hope and honestly I'm very impressed with the amount of aid given and work that Christians do here for homeless people and other groups. I actually used to work with an organisation (almost all members are Christian although thats not really by design .. sort of) which work to help North Korean refugees adjust to life in a capitalist country such as South Korea.

Even evangelists who I really have a lot of other problems with do an enormous amount of good charitable work which other religions don't do. I work with an evangelist who spends every weekend he has in a soup kitchen/other work for the homeless.

I'm quite aware of the good Christianity does here and has done all around the world and continues to do.

And I'll admit it freely that Christianity are head and shoulders above any other religion in this regard.

No, they aren't being forced. They can choose to either, listen to the pastor, or investigate for themselves.

Thats not the point. Their pastor is coercing them.

Christians do tolerate others, what your issue seems to be here is that South Koreans who follow Christianity are deciding not to carry out this practice any more. So what?

No, SOME of the Christian churches are deciding that their congregations shouldn't carry out an old tradition because its not a part of western culture and not a part of Christianity. This all relates back to the deep anti-Buddhist sentiments here by Christians. The big bow is a part of Asian culture, its a sign of respect, its not religious. It's USED in religions such as Buddhism for one example to show respect to the Buddha but its not a Buddhist tradition. They are calling it anti-Christian simply because its not pro-Christian.

Anyone else is still entitled to do this bowing thing. Why must you insist that Christians should have to do it? From what I have read from you, I don't think this is misuse. I'd love to go to South Korea and see for myself mind.

Of course no one should HAVE to do anything. Thats my whole point, they are not stopping it naturally, they are being TOLD to stop doing it.

랴연

PDN wrote: »

BTW, do you wax in dignant about Irish traditions getting 'forced out' - like people crossing themselves when they walk past a church?

Thats a religious tradition not cultural so if I became a Protestant/Muslim/Buddhist of course I would have to stop it.

You know its not the same thing.

Or is your passion for preserving traditions confined to exotic foreign customs that appeal to the tourist in you?

Nicely played PDN. Regardless of my answer I'm going to come across as a twat who is all mesmerised by the natives.

But just to answer you anyways, No. I would be just as annoyed if I heard the Christian church had told the Spanish to stop bullfighting or my grandmother to stop looking for 'cures' from the 7th son of a 7th son.

No, it's not. Evangelical Christians know that they can disagree with their pastor and, if they want, they can always vote with their feet and go to another church. It happens all the time over different issues.

I am been 100% truly honest here. Please read this and accept I'm been sincere because I really am very annoyed about this. I'm more then annoyed, I'm genuinely upset because I would hate to see all this diverse and beautiful customs and traditions disappear.

The people being told to stop bowing do not care. The only reason they are stopping is because of their pastor but its not a big issue to them anyways.

Instead of bowing (big bow) Christians just stand and bow their head slightly and show respect that way. Because to them its all about showing respect, not about the action.

The point here being, they don't particularly care about bowing or not, its all about showing the respect. They would be still doing the bow if they weren't told not to do it.

I am annoyed because they shouldn't have been told not to do it for religious reasons in the first place.

This is all about the Christian churches attitudes here, they are anti-Korean tradition/culture and very pro-American/west.

In the end, if people choose to stop bowing then they do it because that is their decision - and who are you to condemn them for that?

Because they were TOLD to stop. And I am not condemning them at all, my mother-in-law is one. I am condemning the pastors and churches who have done this.

You, unfortunately, are the one who appears to be extremely intolerant. You are condemning Asian Christians because they make a perfectly reasonable choice to jettison a tradition that they no longer wish to be bound by.

They are NOT choosing to jettison it, they are being TOLD to jettison it for religious reasons which you yourself have said is nonsense.

philologos

랴연 wrote: »

Of course they will and thats not an issue at all. The issue is that they are been forced to change or at very least coerced.

They are not being forced or coerced, I think that is the main part of my point that you are missing. They can decide to do otherwise than what their pastors suggest should they feel fit, if they don't want to carry out Confucianist practices then that is their ultimate choice.

랴연 wrote: »

Thats not the point. Their pastor is coercing them.

The pastor isn't. They can decide to do as they wish. If they don't want to carry out these practices that is their choice.

랴연 wrote: »

No, SOME of the Christian churches are deciding that their congregations shouldn't carry out an old tradition because its not a part of western culture and not a part of Christianity. This all relates back to the deep anti-Buddhist sentiments here by Christians.

Of course Christians are going to be opposed to people following Buddhism. That's the same here, however it is wrong to promote hatred of Buddhists, and if that is happening in South Korea it is wrong.

As for this bowing thing that you're getting so sentimental over, if people feel that Confuscianism is contradictory to Christianity in other respects they may not encourage the bowing practice as it associates them with other beliefs which are contradictory to the Christian faith. I again understand this.

랴연 wrote: »

The big bow is a part of Asian culture, its a sign of respect, its not religious. It's USED in religions such as Buddhism for one example to show respect to the Buddha but its not a Buddhist tradition. They are calling it anti-Christian simply because its not pro-Christian.

People can decide to show respect in whatever way they want. Cultures and traditions shift and change the whole time. Are you out canvassing against wearing t-shirts because it goes against the former style of Far Eastern dress?

랴연 wrote: »

Of course no one should HAVE to do anything. Thats my whole point, they are not stopping it naturally, they are being TOLD to stop doing it.

They aren't being forced to accept their views though, they have freedom of thought and conscience and as such they are able to use their own minds to discern what is right.

랴연

wolfsbane wrote: »

Seems to me the only justification on a ban would be if a bow were meant as a religious act rather than a token of respect for those in superior postitions to ourselves - parents, rulers, etc.

A religious bow would violate the commandment to worship God alone. Some cultures worship their ancestors and/or heads of state. Christians can never justly say, Caesar is Lord.

Exactly.

There is a situation here because the big bow is traditionally 'seen' as Buddhist, not because it is a buddhist tradition but because it isn't part of Christianity/western culture. i.e > The bow is NOT religious, but it is used in religions such as Buddhism and Islam to show respect/worship God

랴연

Jakkass wrote: »

They are not being forced or coerced, I think that is the main part of my point that you are missing. They can decide to do otherwise than what their pastors suggest should they feel fit, if they don't want to carry out Confucianist practices then that is their ultimate choice.

1. The bow is not confucianist, its much older then confucianist.Its simply a sign of respect, its PART of confucianism because they use it, but its not theirs alone.

2. My mother-in-law started attending Christian services and has stopped bowing because of the pastor. No other reason. She didn't see an issue with been christian and bowing until her pastor told her there was. This guy holds a level of responsibility and power.

You seem to be suggesting that pastors/priests hold no power over their congregations ?

Of course Christians are going to be opposed to people following Buddhism. That's the same here, however it is wrong to promote hatred of Buddhists, and if that is happening in South Korea it is wrong.

Its a minority and this isn't what I'm talking about here. I'm only talking about a cultural tradition here. Please, I am not attacking Christianity here.

As for this bowing thing that you're getting so sentimental over, if people feel that Confuscianism is contradictory to Christianity in other respects they may not encourage the bowing practice as it associates them with other beliefs which are contradictory to the Christian faith. I again understand this.

In the middle ages in Europe, people bowed to Lords/Knights and still do to royalty today. Is it anti-Christian ?

People can decide to show respect in whatever way they want. Cultures and traditions shift and change the whole time. Are you out canvassing against wearing t-shirts because it goes against the former style of Far Eastern dress?

They shift on their own. Why are you happy to let them be forceably changed because of religion ?

랴연

I think I've discovered the root of some of the churches heres objections to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowing

Bowing to other human beings is frowned upon in Muslim cultures as all human beings are considered equal and bowing is only supposed to be done to God in Islam. Similarly, in Judaism the second of the Ten Commandments is generally interpreted to forbid bowing before anyone but God.

The bow performed here is entirely cultural, not religious. It is to show respect but its used in the same way as we would shake hands or talk politely.

The bow I am talking about is number 5 in the diagram below.

PDN

This stuff about being 'forced' to do things is a total nonsense and a red herring. those who do the bowing are also 'forced' - forced by their parents when they are growing up.

Parents influence us to do one thing, teachers influence us to do another, and religions also influence us - but in the end we choose to do what we want.

Now, if we were talking about foreign missionaries imposing their cultural customs onto poor benighted natives then maybe there might be a slight justification for using the word 'forced' - but the evangelical church in South Korea is very much an indigenous church. there are a few foreign missionaries in South korea - but in fact South Korea sends more missionaries overseas than it receives.

What we are talking about here is one group of Koreans interpreting Christianity in a way that leads them to disregard traditions that some other Koreans hold dear. I'm sorry, but that is the way of the world. It's just the same as Ireland becoming more secularised so that irish people choose to disregard many of the old religious traditions that held sway a generation ago.

I'm amazed by the paternalistic intolerance that I see in this thread. If Korean Christians want to follow a version of Christianity where they don't choose to bow to each other then fair play to them. If they want to keep on bowing then, no doubt, they will choose to attend churches where bowing remains part of the culture - and again I would say fair play to them. Live and let live.

MooseJam

I can see why 랴연 is concerned however I believe blaming the christian churches is pointless as they are always going to be saying things that most reasonable people would object to, it should be down to the locals to act sensibly and ignore everything that comes out of these institutions.

PDN

MooseJam wrote: »

I can see why 랴연 is concerned however I believe blaming the christian churches is pointless as they are always going to be saying things that most reasonable people would object to, it should be down to the locals to act sensibly and ignore everything that comes out of these institutions.

Er, I think these institutions are the local people.

Maybe foreigners should stop telling the local people what they should and shouldn't be doing?

랴연

PDN wrote: »

Parents influence us to do one thing, teachers influence us to do another, and religions also influence us - but in the end we choose to do what we want.

Then call it whatever you want, force, coercion, advice.

The fact is that some churches pastors are influencing their congregations into stopping a perfectly harmless tradition.

Like it not PDN but most people look for religious guidance from their church leaders, not from reading and interpreting the bible. These people believe their pastor is right, hes right when he talks about Jesus's life and hes right when he says what to do and what not to do.

And if you don't see anything wrong with an organisation been so anti-another group of people and so anti-their own culture that they actually 'give advice' to their congregations to stop a perfectly harmless, ancient tradition then I honestly know now without a doubt I could never be a Christian because whatever way you paint this, it is intolerance.

I came here even though I am not a Christian, hoping, even begging in my mind that Christians here would have some sense of decency to at very least condemn people telling others that bowing is anti-Christian, because we both know it isn't.

But no, you don't care because the way you see it, these people are promoting your religion so you don't care what traditions or what culture they destroy if you believe that doing so will help the promotion of Christianity.

If they want to keep on bowing then, no doubt, they will choose to attend churches where bowing remains part of the culture - and again I would say fair play to them. Live and let live.

You really don't listen do you ?

The Churches that are "OK" with bowing don't promote it, they have no opinion on it at all.

The driving force behind destroying this tradition is some evangelist churches whose idea of a 'good' Korea is a westernised Christian Korea.

PDN

랴연 wrote: »

And if you don't see anything wrong with an organisation been so anti-another group of people and so anti-their own culture that they actually 'give advice' to their congregations to stop a perfectly harmless, ancient tradition then I honestly know now without a doubt I could never be a Christian because whatever way you paint this, it is intolerance.

So, because you find a guy on a message board who doesn't agree with you that causes you to know you could never be a Christian? That's hardly a rational approach to making major decisions, is it? I think you're being a bit overly dramatic there.

You really don't listen do you ?

I listen, but so far all I'm hearing is a guy who can't seem to tolerate anyone holding a different viewpoint to his own.

I don't give a toss whether Koreans bow to each other for the next thousand years or if that custom goes the way of most other traditions and customs the world over. Either way, I think that's up to Koreans to decide for themselves, not for me or you to impose our views on them.

philologos

랴연 wrote: »

1. The bow is not confucianist, its much older then confucianist.Its simply a sign of respect, its PART of confucianism because they use it, but its not theirs alone.

Right.

랴연 wrote: »

2. My mother-in-law started attending Christian services and has stopped bowing because of the pastor. No other reason. She didn't see an issue with been christian and bowing until her pastor told her there was. This guy holds a level of responsibility and power.

She clearly decided that she wants to not do this anymore. She could have done one of two things: 1) Accept the advice, 2) Dismiss the advice. I don't think this is a "power" issue, I accept advice from my friends, and I can either accept or reject this advice. It depends on whether or not I trust it is the best thing.

랴연 wrote: »

You seem to be suggesting that pastors/priests hold no power over their congregations ?

I'm suggesting that it is ultimately her decision to take the pastors advice.

랴연 wrote: »

In the middle ages in Europe, people bowed to Lords/Knights and still do to royalty today. Is it anti-Christian ?

I'm personally glad that I don't live in a monarchy now, and you can hardly say that is a practice that is widely followed in Europe to the present day.

랴연 wrote: »

They shift on their own. Why are you happy to let them be forceably changed because of religion ?

I'd argue that religion would represent a natural change of culture rather than a forced one. People think and decide to change their norms for themselves in the end though.

hiorta

"""My mother in law, who has been a 'little' buddhist all her life has stopped bowing because her new daughter in law's church says its wrong. The woman herself doesn't care."""
The new daughter in law should simply refrain if that is how she has been instructed - what others choose to do is hardly her concern.

Surely a 'live and let live approach' is adult, mannerly and sensible?

Of course it could simply be theologians exercising their control.

postcynical

랴연 wrote: »

The bow performed here is entirely cultural, not religious. It is to show respect but its used in the same way as we would shake hands or talk politely.

The bow I am talking about is number 5 in the diagram below.

To each their own, but personally I would be happy to cast aside such a cultural hangup if I were Korean. It seems some Koreans think likewise. It comes across as subservience, IMO.

A nod is good enough.