solar installers

niffle

anyone have experience of solar installation companies have to decide between two and not sure. dont know if i can name them here but would like to hear from any one who has already experience of having solar panels installed am more interested in installation experience who is good who isnt etc:cool:

homer911

It would help if you told us where you are, or where they are based

quentingargan

One guide to their integrity might be to ask them are they putting in a heat dump, and if so, what system they use.

Best practice is to use a heat dump to stop the system stagnating when the cylinder is full of hot water. Yet very few installers do this. Systems without a heat dump will boil at temperatures between 160 and 220 degrees C on a fairly regular basis, putting pressure on compression fittings, degrading the anti-freeze and damaging pipe insulation in close proximity to the panel itself.

If they say they never use heat dumps, move on.:cool:

niffle

based in meath Installers from leinster ! thanks for info on heat dump will take that into account when making decision

SolarHome

I just wanted to take up the comment on the last post about heat dumps! I am involved in solar installations and have in excess of 400 units installed with anything from 2 to 8 panel systems, I rearly ever use dumps unless its a holiday home, stagnation only happens i extreme weather conditions if the house has an over specified number of panels for the # of people in the house. I generally only install plates which will only go to 150c (max) during stagnation and I use high temp washers with these systems (speced to 400C). Remember the most important thingto balance when selecting a solar panel system is product quality and cost . Quality because the system shouls last over 20 years so cheaper systems may not have the life expectancy & Cost if you over pay for your system you end up having a slower payback on the system

rayh

It is interesting to note the variances in opinion between quentengargan and SolarHome. Both suppliers and installer’s. I suppose the typical “doctors differ and patients die”.

To add to this confusion as a consumer and advocate of Solar systems, I would comment:
a) Solar systems should not be based on the number of persons in a house – very few households maintain the same numbers over time of say 30 years or the expected life of a solar system.
b) Stagnation results from an imbalance between supply and storage of energy and a major contributor to reduced system performance.

Against this background, I would suggest that any proposal should be configured to provide optimum performance in meeting the total energy needs of the dwelling

quentingargan

SolarHome wrote: »

I just wanted to take up the comment on the last post about heat dumps! I am involved in solar installations and have in excess of 400 units installed with anything from 2 to 8 panel systems, I rearly ever use dumps unless its a holiday home, stagnation only happens i extreme weather conditions if the house has an over specified number of panels for the # of people in the house. I generally only install plates which will only go to 150c (max) during stagnation and I use high temp washers with these systems (speced to 400C). Remember the most important thingto balance when selecting a solar panel system is product quality and cost . Quality because the system shouls last over 20 years so cheaper systems may not have the life expectancy & Cost if you over pay for your system you end up having a slower payback on the system

Many good quality flatplates stagnate at temperatures of 190 degrees and more, not 150 degrees.

Regardless of balancing supply to demand, people do go on holidays during the summer. Some installers suggest dumping back to the panel at night - a setting on most controllers - but this only dumps a small amount of heat from the bottom part of the cylinder.

To some extent, it also depends on the system you want. If you have a well insulated house, with no requirement for central heating from March to October, you will want to maximise solar gain during that time. This will mean surplus heat in the summer months. If you only want enough hot water for the three best months of the year, (and you hate holidays) then you may not need a dump.

Allowing the system to regularly go into stagnation will degrade the glycol used as anti-freeze, it will accellerate the aging of the panel because if the panel is at a high temperature, it may reduce the longevity of the rubber seal around the glazing. It also may damage the pipe insulation in close proximity to the panel because this insulation is not rated to 190 degrees.

Stagnation may occasionally happen as a result of a power cut, but it is not good practice to design a system knowing that the maximum pressure on it will happen while the family is on the beach in Portugal for two weeks...:eek:

RVR

Well, I'd like to weigh in as another counterpoint to quentingargan's view (agreeing with SolarHome)

We are a company with over 30 years in heating equipment manufacture and supply in Ireland and a sizable share of the national solar market. We have many many thousands of m2 of collector installed in Ireland.

The majority of our installers do not use heat dumps. We do not advocate them. None of our suppliers advocate them either.

Stagnation is an integral part of solar thermal and the system should be sized so that it stagnates in the height of summer only. As long as quality materials are used then the equipment can handle this.

Allowing the system to regularly go into stagnation will degrade the glycol used as anti-freeze

This is correct - if you REGULARLY allow this. A properly designed system should not do this as it will be sized to meet the summertime needs of the household. Summer holidays once a year are not going to cause catastrophic failure of the system.

This often occurs because too much aperture area of panel has been installed relative to the size of the thermal store. What this means is the tank will heat more quickly but once it is hot the panels will enter stagnation quickly also (and often!).

One solution to this problem is of course a heat dump. But do you want a radiator on in your home when it's up to 30 degrees outside and you're trying to keep cool?!?

Of course to each installer his own but to suggest that you should avoid an installer because he doesn't use a "heat dump" is nonsense. Likewise this doesn't mean that if an installer uses one you should not consider him (or her).

You should choose a supplier because he is reputable, has good technical knowledge, offers a good price and uses quality materials.

Des

quentingargan

Its good to have a debate like this about heat dumps. I know they are very seldom used - indeed most installers have never installed one, but that doesn't mean that they aren't needed. The total component cost of a heat dump is less than 10% of the total system cost in most cases. Yet putting one in provides huge benefits.

RVR wrote: »

A properly designed system should not do this as it will be sized to meet the summertime needs of the household.

There is no such thing as constant use or "summertime needs". Some families may regularly have a bath every night, but in most cases water use is not constant, nor is sunshine. For a system to be effective, there needs to be some surplus production - you can't avoid that. It doesn't push the price up by very much to fit an extra panel and a heat dump, but it will hugely extend the effective period that the system will provide all your hot water needs.

RVR wrote: »

One solution to this problem is of course a heat dump. But do you want a radiator on in your home when it's up to 30 degrees outside and you're trying to keep cool?!?

It is common practice in Austria to fit the dump radiator outside the house under the eaves of the roof. However, often the bathroom in an old house will benefit from a small amount of heat to reduce condensation and damp so it can be beneficial.

RVR wrote: »

As long as quality materials are used then the equipment can handle this.

You sell insulated pipework for solar with a max temperature rating of 120 degrees. The default settings for controllers allow much higher temperatures than this in a pressurised system, especially if there is no heat dump.

RVR

quentingargan wrote: »

Its good to have a debate like this about heat dumps.

It sure is - thre is a lot of misinformation out there about many issues. Any debate that educates people who are buying solar a little better lets them make a more informed choice. This can only be good for the industry!

There is no such thing as constant use or "summertime needs".

This is correct. Each system should be sized correctly. For instance there sould be no point having a 300 litre tank and 5m2 of panel with only one or two people in the house taking one shower a day each.

This is simply where our approaches differ - we prefer to size so that there is the minimum excess of heat produced. Our approach is that the simpler the system is the less there is to go wrong.

Others (using heat dumps) prefer to oversize the system and then have to deal with the excess heat. Why have to solve a problem you create yourself?

(PS - Others again just oversize the system and do nothing to deal with the excess heat - options one and two will work out ok but this option would be disasterous!)

It is common practice in Austria to fit the dump radiator outside the house under the eaves of the roof. However, often the bathroom in an old house will benefit from a small amount of heat to reduce condensation and damp so it can be beneficial.

Well if an installer wants to use a heat dump then that is their choice. It's not necessarily the most elegant engineering solution but to each their own

You sell insulated pipework for solar with a max temperature rating of 120 degrees. The default settings for controllers allow much higher temperatures than this in a pressurised system, especially if there is no heat dump.

We make all our information available because we have nothing to hide. When the panel is stagnating at 180 degrees, then the temperature of the fluid half a meter down the pipework is at approximately 130 degrees. go another half a meter and the fluid drops to ~100 degrees or below. This is in actual testing during stagnation of our equipment.

We require the use of 1 metre external tails with a rating of 150 degrees (e.g. standard Armaflex HT). Since the pump stops and prevents fluid from being brought down from the panel during stagnation, the 120 degree rated "internal" pipework we sell will not contain temperatures above their maximum rating.

As a result there is no need to install costly 150 degree UV stabilised pipework all the way to the tank - saving money without cutting quality.

--

Any other solar installers or suppliers care to weigh in on the heat dump issue?!?

Evergreen

My hat is off to you Quentin, you really do know how to heat things up

Most of your comments in this forum over the past few years are usually excellent and well informed. However, in this instance I have to agree with RVR, choosing an installer solely on whether or not they plan to install a heat dump or not seems a little rich. It really is down to system design, I mean these days in Austria and Germany the amount of people using plain water instead of glycol as the heat transfer fluid is becoming the norm rather than the exception – in these cases you do not even have to worry about degradation of heat transfer fluid.

RVR wrote: »

We do not advocate them and we are the only company from the Republic with our own panel on the european solar keymark list.

RVR, I’m not really sure how this declaration actually contributes to the debate. It’s not really that big a deal to get on the keymark list, all you need is a cheque for EUR 350 and a letter from the manufacturer saying it is ok to re-register their panels in your name. If I am not mistaken you may even be breaking the forum rules and Quentin, or other, may well be within their rights to report you…..

Me thinks there is too much of one company trying to get the upper hand of the other in this thread :pac:

RVR

Evergreen wrote: »

If I am not mistaken you may even be breaking the forum rules

Well in hindsight it probably wasn't necessary and a bit over the top... I'll remove the reference from my original post.

But then telling people to avoid installers because they don't use heat dumps seems a bit much to me too :eek:

Sorry guys!!! I'll be a bit more tactful next time :rolleyes:

homer911

As a consumer, can I chip in and say that in almost 3 years of using 40 evac tubes with a 300l tank, facing almost due south and having a heat dump installed, it has operated a total of 15 hours

I should add that I'm in a soft water area and have my stagnation temp set to 85C. May Bank Holiday weekend my tank got up to 79.5C

quentingargan

homer911 wrote: »

As a consumer, can I chip in and say that in almost 3 years of using 40 evac tubes with a 300l tank, facing almost due south and having a heat dump installed, it has operated a total of 15 hours

Thanks for that Homer - (philosopher or Simpson?). That 15 hours may represent somewhere between 5 and 15 occasions on which the panel might have gone into stagnation. However, once the panel goes into stagnation, it may well remain at that high temperature for a long time - especially with vacuum tubes.

By the way, depending on tube size, many people are fitting 6 sq m to 300L as standard, or 60 tubes if they are the 47mm size. That would stagnate more often.

While we are all eating humble pie here, lets say yes - it is a bit OTT to say no to an installer because they don't do heat dumps, but I personally believe they should almost always be used. I suppose if you get the HUH factor when you make the suggestion, it gives some guide to integrity.

BullBauld

If I may hijack this thread and interupt the infromative debate going on above.

Like the original poster I am currently shopping around for solar planels and I'm a confused to be honest. Companies throw different specs etc at you and I'm left scratching my head.

I'm building a 2 sotrey circa 2000sq feet. There will be 2 of us occupying the house(for the first few years!!!) The back of the house faces south which is ideal cos I intend on using tubes which I gather are the most efficient??

The last company I spoke to said that a panel of 18 tubes with a 300l cylinder is ample and to be wary of companies trying to sell 36 or more tubes to me. This would be just too much than whats needed. Is this correct??? Is a 300l cylinder too much or good to have for the future???

Anyways that company quoted me approx €2,600 + vat for 18 tube collecter, cylinder and all the other bits n bobs need for fitting. Does this sound reasonable?? Any replies welcome.

Quentin does your company supply/install solar systems? Maybe you could pm if so??

Evergreen

BullBauld wrote: »

The back of the house faces south which is ideal cos I intend on using tubes which I gather are the most efficient??

Hi BullBauld, this statement would be the general consensus but is not always correct. It is heavily dependent on the quality of the tube collector that you install.

I have seen evacuated tubes with an ouput yield of 780 kWh/m2 (which is pretty good) and others with as low an output as 400 kWh/m2 (which is rubbish). Most flat plate panels come in between 500 and 595 kWh/m2.

To confuse you even more the figures above are based on the aperture area of the panel and not on the gross area. Here is an example that might help you out.

Evacuated Tube Panel
Gross Area 2.32 m2
Aperture Area 1.33 m2
Output 780 kWh/m2 aperture
Total output 1037.4 kWh/ panel
Gross output 447 kWh/ covered meter on your roof

Good Flat Plate Panel
Gross Area 2.40 m2
Aperture Area 2.22 m2
Output 577 kWh/m2 aperture
Total output 1280.94 kWh/ panel
Gross output 533.73 kWh/ covered meter on your roof

This is data from panels that I have used during the last few years and as you can see it is not just as simple as looking at the output per aperture area, or believing that all evacuated tube panels are more efficient than flat plate.

Tube collectors have certain advantages over flat plate collectors and to be honest each installation should be looked at on a case-by-case basis to see which solution suits best.

You will probably see lot's of posts claiming one system is better than the other, but in most cases you will see that these guys deal in just that particular system they are promoting and not both.

My advice is take your time looking at what is on the market, never compare aperture output to aperture output and talk to past customers of the installer that you intend to use to make sure that the quality of installation is up to scratch and any after service (if required) was good.

Kashkai

I was about to get a solar system installed when my house was being built 2 years ago but the wife thought solar panels were "unsightly" and so we didn't go ahead with it.

However, with 4, soon to be 5 kids, the requirements for showers and baths in our house is going to expand exponentiently over the coming years and as we have 2 pumped showers (they're brill by the way and far stronger than the puny Triton type electric showers) they will empty our 300 litre hot water tank in no time whatsoever, and so I don't want to have our oil burner going on a constant basis to heat water. This is why the idea of "free" solar water heating is gaining interest from me. However, as this thread demonstrates, there is a lot of confusion out there amongst consumers (and differing views from suppliers) about what type of system to get installed.

In our case, the house is south west facing, and currently uses a combination of a wood pellet stove and an oil boiler for central heating and hot water. However, we don't have the rads on from end April until early October and just use the oil burner for a half hour to heat water in the morning, which is a waste of oil and money. So which way to go, flat plate or tubes, costs of maintenance, life expectancy of system etc. Very very confusing subject and the lack of a firm "way to go" is making me hold off on committing myself (to a solar system that is, not an institution!:D)

quentingargan

Hi Prosperous Dave (with a name like that, I hope you aren't asking to be suckered...).

Since you already have a 300L cylinder, I wonder if it already has a solar coil by any chance? Awful shame if it hasn't. There are work-arounds, but they are always a bit of a compromise, but I think on balance, if it is a good well insulated 300L stainless cylinder, I would try to avoid changing it.

If you do this by using something called a Solar Syphon, it will require the panel to work at higher average temperatures than would normally be the case, and that would push you towards vacuum flasks or tubes.

The good news is that changing the cylinder is usually almost half the cost of the job. If your roof is accessible, and there is a straight pipe run to the cylinder and you can get the grant, this whole project should be very cost effective for you.

But if you keep your cylinder, it means that you will have a non-standard package, and really someone would have to call and discuss the options and have a clost look at the cylinders and the existing heating systems. You are unlikely to get a solution on the bulletin board as such. PM me if you'd like us to do that. Q

PeteHeat

Hi,

Advantages of the heat dump to be considered :

It can help future proof your system, for example a two person household with plans to extend the family do not have factor in an extra solar panel when considering school fees when junior reaches the age of 5

The larger array can extend the performance of the system eg earlier in Spring, later in Autumn.

Even in winter we have some diffused radiation (sun light), the larger array may contribute by pre-heating the water in the bottom of the cylinder to as much as 35c > 40c, a lot better than the 10c direct from the attic storage tank.

Very few homes use the same amount of hot water everyday, the cost of a slightly larger system is easy to meet during the initial installation instead of adding on later or worse running out of hot water after spending a lot of money on a solar system.

Most of the other benefits such as stagnation, holidays etc have been covered by Quentin.

There are many other suppliers / installers who agree with using some form of heat dump who don't post here, one importer I know of had them as a condition of the warranty on his systems.

.

Kashkai

My existing cylinder is a 300 litre dual coil (one for oil and one for the wood pellet stove) foam insulated type and naturally enough I wouldn't be so lucky that this expensive 2 year old glass lined cylinder could be used as part of a new solar system. On the plus side, its a bungalow and there would be a straight run from the roof down through the attic to the hotpress, just a case of drilling a hole to get the new pipe down.

We get through a lot of hot water in this house through baths for the kids and the pumped showers for myself and the wife which do empty the tank quite quickly. With the price of oil going to increase due to a carbon tax and global shortages in the future, I think its a no brainer getting a solar system installed now. I would personally go for an oversized system cause when my kids get older, the requirement for hot water will be greater than today (I've 3 girls who'll probably spend hours in the bath like their mother!).

Its just a question of getting a solar system within our budget. Oh and my Board's name "Prosperous" is based on where I live and DEFINITELY not my current financial circumstances :D. And as for possibly being "suckered", I could refer you to a landscaper who tried to cut corners on our patio and whose will to live was sorely tested by my insistence that he do the job as agreed.;)

muffler

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Oh and my Board's name "Prosperous" is based on where I live and DEFINITELY not my current financial circumstances

You cant fool us Dave

Kashkai

muffler wrote: »

You cant fool us Dave

Au contraire mon capitain but I have given up work to be a full time house husband minding my 4 kids (the childcare costs were greater than what I earned, and crazy as it sounds, I am better off not working) and thus we are down to getting by on the wife's pay. So Prosperous might be the name but it definitely is not applicable to the vacant hole where my bank account used to be :eek::P

Back on topic - I think solar heating is a good investment if it is done right which is why I'll research the hell out of the subject before I commit myself. As Muffler knows, I was badly bitten before by a dodgy contractor and so I will be very cautious about spending several thousand euro on something that could go badly wrong if not done right.

Carlow52

Just reading todays Sunday Times and the above gets a write up on page 3 of the business section.

Given that we cant name names i wont, suffice to say that, on the surface, the panels look as if they have the power to be a force to be reckoned with.

PS: On mature reflection:) and re-reading the article in the light of the incisive comments from QG (24 and 26) and PH (25) below, all I can say is CAVEAT EMPTOR as to
where they are made
how closely they have been aligned to the 'Irish weather'
their performance claims

quentingargan

Carlow52 wrote: »

Given that we cant name names i wont, suffice to say that, on the surface, the panels look as if they have the power to be a force to be reckoned with.

There is only one manufacturer of vacuum tubes in Ireland that I know of, and again, not naming names, they would be more akin to male royalty and the length of a wing. On the surface, it would seem that these guys are truly winging it in hyping up their manufacturing status of a product that is available off the shelf from about 1,000 manufacturers in China. I think that's called re-branding:rolleyes:.

PeteHeat

Hi,

While I haven't seen the article, I have seen the product, to be honest I was not impressed, as to being manufactured in Ireland what a joke

Careful wording by the marketing department does give the impression the product is made here, in another mail shot they were giving the impression the panels were manufactured specifically to suit the Irish climate.

The company in question should have ensured they have sole import rights for the Irish market as I was recentley offered the same product by the manufacturer in China.

.

quentingargan

Got that article. A disgraceful piece of spinning and PR. I've nothing against Chinese panels, we sell them ourselves. China has been a front runner in the development of vacuum flask systems and I reckon they have by far the best products (in most cases, but not all)... But this article is a load of hype which is quite normal for press releases from this company who have a unique ability to tell downright lies with a straight face.

They even claim to be late entrants to the market who held off selling for the last six years. Eh, what were they doing at all the self-build shows where for the last few years they claimed their vacuum flasks and wind turbines were Irish made?

This isn't sour grapes - I welcome competition in a market which is doing work that we all believe should be done in improving the energy performance of Irish housing. But when double glazing sales techniques and barefaced lies are used to sell products it does huge damage to this industry and its reputation.:mad:

Evergreen

I agree 100% with Quinten's sentiments, this kind of PR spinning is going to do untold damge to the image of solar panels in Ireland. After successful marketing over the past number of years it is now takne as gospel by most people that if the panel has tubes then it is certainly better.

An example of this: I was in Killarney last week taling to an agent and he showed me a flyer from the local hardware store. It offered 5.2 square meters of tube panels with a 300L cylinder for just EUR 1700 including VAT. The agent was wondering how he was everg going to compete with this kind of product until we looked at the small print. The output for the entire 5.2 square meters was 1080 kWhr/year, or when worked out in relation to square meters of roof covered this is a shocking 207 kWhrs/m2. Even a poor quality flat plate panel can give an output of 449 kWhrs/m2 gross with top quality flat plate coming in at 545 kWhrs/m2 gross.

I was speaking to another guy in the area who had installed a similar quality system, I asked how happy he was with the panels and his reply was this, "They are great, I hardly have to switch on the immersion at all in the last couple of months, during the really hot days the cylinder gets up to 50°C"

Let the buyer beware.......

I feel a rant coming on :mad:

........I think that it is a disgrace that SEI only exmaine the drop test results of solar panels when allowing them up on the approved list with absolutley no requirement to have a minimum output level per square meter. Also, SEI's insistance on constantly referring to the Aperture Area output instead of the Gross area output results in very mislaeading data that is being banded about in front of the consumer..........

MickLimk

Haven't posted here in a while (thankfully been busy installing!) but was keeping an eye out for details of this 'Irish made' panel. I install panels from many different suppliers including some of those who post on here and I really wanted to give that Irish company the benefit of the doubt. However I was sceptical from the outset at the claims especially when I couldn't find any of the certified performance figures for their panel.

I finally came across the figures yesterday on the SEI HARP database and I'm totally at a loss as to how the 'manufacturer' came up with the claims they made about their panel. This table is something that was discussed before. It gives a Collector Performance Factor figure for a panel based on the zero loss efficiency and heat loss coefficient. These are independently certified figures for each panel and the equation used to calculate the CPF is the one used by the SEI in the DEAP software. I'm not saying that this CPF figure is the best way to compare panels (no IAM taken into account etc) but it is at least some figure of merit that can't be easily talked around by PR/Marketing bull....

Have a look and see for yourself where this 'Irish made' panel ranks in the list. As I said, I've no axe to grind as an independent installer not tied to any supplier but agree with Quentin and Evergreen about this kind of press potentially damaging the industry. I'd like to see the ASAI's take on it: "The Essence of Good Advertising: All marketing communications should be legal, decent, honest and truthful. "!

Carlow52

MickLimk
Evergreen
quentingargan
PeteHeat
Thanks to u all who feel the same way as I do: if someone more tech savy than I wants to write something for the ASAI I am glad to front it, send it by PM

I am not in the game so have nothing to lose if I p.. sei off

quentingargan

Would be nice, but as far as I know, ASAI only respond in relation to printed or media advertising. You can do what you like in terms of PR and media spin, and journalists are often too pressurised to check the info that they are given. They can't be expert in everything.

I've emailed the journalist who wrote this article and directed them to this post. But as was said before on this post, caveat emptor. Q

jfromk

Dave did you make any decision in the end. I am from kildare too and have an existing house and also am considering going the solar route.
Any info you have uncovered would be appreciated .

Kashkai

I'm still at the "thinking quite strongly about it" stage as funds are tight and if I do go ahead and get a solar system installed, it will have to be done right first time as I couldn't afford to get someone else in to correct the mistakes of others (sorry that I appear to be on the verge of a rant but I have had some bitter experiences with contractors in the past).

I've gotten some rough quotes of between €5,000 and €6,000 which admittedley were over the phone/web and therefore there haven't been any site visits yet to firm up these quotes (as I'm still not ready to go ahead, I'm not going to waste anyone's time by dragging them out to my place just for an idea of what it will cost).

One of my neighbours has gotten the tubes installed and they do tend to er, "stand out" on their tiled roof. I've a black slate roof and therefore I'd be more inclined to go for the flat panels which would blend in more and mollify the wife's objections, notwithstanding that the tubes appear to have better year round functionality over the flat panels which appear to work best in our summer time.

Evergreen

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

One of my neighbours has gotten the tubes installed and they do tend to er, "stand out" on their tiled roof. I've a black slate roof and therefore I'd be more inclined to go for the flat panels which would blend in more and mollify the wife's objections, notwithstanding that the tubes appear to have better year round functionality over the flat panels which appear to work best in our summer time.

Hi Dave check out the picture attached, they blend in prefectly with black slate roofs.

quentingargan

Hi Dave,

Important to check if you are being quoted for flatplates that they are roof-integrated rather than "on-roof". I've no axe to grind as we sell both, but unless it is a very sheltered area, I reckon the wind loading for flatplates mounted 1" off the roof is too high for Irish conditions. They also look pretty gruesome by comparison with roof integrated ones. All quality flatplates come with flashings for either slates or tiles so they fit in nicely, but more importantly don't compromise your roof integrity.

The reason you see so many "on roof" systems around is because many plumbers don't like installing roof integrated systems - they have to go cutting tiles and fitting flashings, but it really is as simple as fitting a Velux window.

I have seen some cheap "on roof" systems that I reckon will be "on the ground" and downright dangerous in a good gale

PeteHeat

Hi Dave,

I fully agree with Quentin, knowledge of roofing is essential for retro fitting flat panels into slate roofs or it could look terrible and worse again leak !

A lot of the tube systems can survive a poor installation of the brackets because the wind goes through them reducing the load in high winds.

The system in the photo provided by Evergreen is a good design as the wind loads are no different to the slate they are in place of, I know Quentin's system is similar.

There are some that do not have a good flashing system so they compromise and fit a metal sheet under the panels as the waterproofing basically replacing the slate roof with a metal one.

.

Kashkai

The flush fit flat panels are what I had envisaged for my place and the photo provided by Evergreen could just as easily be my roof as the slates on that roof are an exact match to mine.

I agree that placing flat panels "on top" of the existing roof is plain silly as a strong wind will get under them and rip them off imo. The wife is dead set against the tubes as she thinks they look like a row of fluorescent tubes bolted onto the roof of our neighbour's house.

PeteHeat

Hi,

What can I say ?

The Lady has taste

.

soldsold

Hi Dave,

What type of slates are they? They look good.

Steve

Aeneas

Has anyone, anywhere - in Ireland or abroad - heard of solar panels being ripped off by high winds?

PeteHeat

Hi Aneas,

I understand some fixing methods are no longer allowed in the UK based on experience from both insurance companies and building control.

I have seen items a lot heavier and more robust than solar panels blown off roofs, the one thing every item had in common was a poorly installed or badlt designed fixing method.

Some of the fixing methods supplied as standard with solar leave a lot to be desired.

Good quality systems tend to have good fixing methods and should not present problems.

.

Evergreen

Aeneas wrote: »

Has anyone, anywhere - in Ireland or abroad - heard of solar panels being ripped off by high winds?

I've not heard of anybody getting solar panels blown off

Carlow52

Aeneas wrote: »

Has anyone, anywhere - in Ireland or abroad - heard of solar panels being ripped off by high winds?

Off topic a bit: in Germany the Gov did a subsidy scheme for farmers with large farm buildings for large solar PV arrays. Theft levels are frightening.

My friend spent 400k on an array: gone the next weekend.

Yes, you will ask was it the installers......

muffler

Carlow52 wrote: »

Off topic a bit: in Germany the Gov did a subsidy scheme for farmers with large farm buildings for large solar PV arrays. Theft levels are frightening.

My friend spent 400k on an array: gone the next weekend.

Yes, you will ask was it the installers......

And the follow up film was called..........gone with the wind

Kashkai

Aeneas wrote: »

Has anyone, anywhere - in Ireland or abroad - heard of solar panels being ripped off by high winds?

No to answer your question, but if tiles or slates that are interlocked and nailed to a roof can be blown off in a gale, then it stands to reason that a strong wind can also get under a solar panel (thats not fitted into the roof structure) and lift it and probably some slates as well off the roof.

I used to work in the airport and during one particular storm, they had to tie down several aircraft as the winds were causing them to "take flight" on their own by getting under the wings and causing lift. Never underestimate the power of moving air!!

quentingargan

Aeneas wrote: »

Has anyone, anywhere - in Ireland or abroad - heard of solar panels being ripped off by high winds?

There was one case of flatplate panels on a flat roof where they got ripped off their frame. I think it was the west of Ireland - it was one of the slides on the BPEC course in Derrry many years ago.

However, the fact that it doesn't regularly happen is not a reflection of the superb workmanship. It is simply that only one roof in a hundred (if that) has a solar panel.

Likewise, I have never heard of anyone dying of Legionnaires contraced from a solar water heating systems.

But when every house has a solar panel, we may find entire housing estates becoming hard hat zones...

ferngreen

Again in relation to the question of solar panels being blown off a roof it comes down to the simple and most important thing about any piece of renewable technology

The technology is only as good as the quality of installation!!

rayfitzharris

Hi evergreen,

My bro and I are looking at installing these integrated flat panels at the moment.
The roofer has said that he's seen terrible problems with leakage around the panels/flashing, yours have been in for a while now, any issue with leakage?

That's the last thing we want to be worrying about in a few years time, they do look tidy though. Any feed back on the performance would be appreciated too.

thanks,
Ray

Evergreen

Hi Ray,

The only time that we have seen leakage is when the roofer has used the wrong flashing for the type of roof - for example uses a tile flashing on a slate roof or visa versa. Or if the flashing has not been installed in accordance with intsructions.

I know plenty of people that have in-roof systems installed over a number of years and have never had a leak. Likewise, I also know people with over-roof systems that have leakes becuase the anchor bolts have not been sealed correctly.

Hope this helps?

rayfitzharris

Thanks Evergreen,
That's what I thought, I couldn't find much mention of this problem anywhere, boards or otherwise. Might need to revisit the roofer selection rather than the panel selection :rolleyes:

Best regards,
Ray