A "knowledge economy" or a "who you know economy"?

avalon68

Im a recent PhD graduate currently faced with the soul destroying task of trying to find a post doc in academia. The task is made all the more frustrating by witnessing several people from my old department recieve jobs which a) were not advertised and b) they got because they knew someone in the lab. Now this may sound like sour grapes, but truly it isn't. I believe the best person for the job should get the job. How can we ever hope to emerge as a knowlege economy, leaders in multiple fields etc, when we cant seem to get past this "hire the most convenient person/person who knows the most people" mentality? I'm interested to hear peoples views on this matter

2Scoops

That sucks. What field are you in? (just curious)

It happens everywhere - employers often go for 'proven quantities' rather than taking a chance on someone who is better on paper but may be difficult to work with. AFAIK, it's not legal to offer a non-advertised position if it's for a state-funded institution. I know you can have "internal" competitions though, which amounts to the same thing. Can anyone clarify that?

avalon68

2Scoops wrote: »

That sucks. What field are you in? (just curious)

Biochem originally, then leaning towards immunology for the phd. Have been in Dub so long it feels "odd" having to move on :rolleyes:, but no sign of a job there so had to cut my losses and retreat to corcaigh for now

KP81

Avalon,

Having finished up a PhD 3yrs ago I can sympathise with your frustrations. However, the attitude, common amongst students, that disdains networking is something that will have to be jettisoned if you want to progress in any career. This is not some sleazy or underhand activity but an essential skill that really should give you a start in launching your career. Also, it is something anyone can do. It just means swallowing pride or overcoming shyness and putting yourself out there. You ALREADY have a network in place if you've done a PhD. You mention colleagues that have gone on to land postdocs. Give them a call, ask them how they are getting on and oh by the way have you heard of any openings? Just keep calling not email or internet searching. Go drop into a lab to have a look at what they do, knock on doors ask questions then follow up with a thank you. Don't directly ask for a job that is NOT networking. It's a quid pro quo, if people feel you can help them they will help you.
By the way post doc is NOT considered a real job by industry and should only be done if you have a realistic chance of tenure, if not just go straight to industry. Good luck and don't give up.

avalon68

I guess its the idealist in me - I believe the best qualified person for the job should get the job :rolleyes:. If a job isn't even advertised then it is unlikely that the best person is being hired. I look at it this way - In however many years time when my (as yet imaginary) kids go to college I will probably be paying fees for them.....now do my children deserve to be educated by leaders in their field, or by people who got the job because they knew someone?.

However as you point out, this is the way the system works here and I will prob have to resort to such tactics to find employment in Ireland - but there will always be a nagging doubt in the back of my mind....did I get the job because I deserved it/was the best candidate or because I networked/butt kissed my way into it .

avalon68

KP81 wrote: »

Avalon,

By the way post doc is NOT considered a real job by industry and should only be done if you have a realistic chance of tenure, if not just go straight to industry. Good luck and don't give up.

This is interesting. I would prefer to stay in academia but have recently been considering a few posts I have seen advertised for industry positions. Im just wondering - did you make the leap to industry? If so how did you find it in comparison to academia?

KP81

Avalon,
Regarding you last post: I did make the transition to the pharma industry and have found it great. The longer I stay the less hands on research I do as there is a lot of regulatory paperwork to put in place. Not too disimilar to what happens to lecturers when they have to start grant writing. However, there is a genuine feeling of progress and projects move forward in a faster way than academia. Projects can also get cut based on business needs which can be frustrating. A couple of big differences: You have to be a lot more professional, calibrating equipment every day, wearing all safety gear and working regular hours and doing formal training on each piece of kit. I think the quality of the science is maybe better than that done in academia but a lot can't be published for intellectual property (IP) reasons. Things can get political with managers and departments but this also goes on at universities. Unfortunately there has been a lot of layoffs in industry at the moment and getting in could be hard. Try a small niche place that is not based near an urban centre. You'd be surprised how many small companies and suppliers there are. Catch 22 is that you only get to know these companies when working in industry.

On your first reply regarding the ideal that the best qualified person gets the job. This is a highly subjective notion. In my experience the person with the best FIT gets the job because how does a hiring manager know you are in fact best. Another point would be that a PhD should be sold as a demonstration of your ability to filter large amounts af data and arrive at a conclusion of some sort (Not necessarily the best or right solution). You will have to continue learning all your life so even if you are the best at something now you will not be when that has been superseded by some new hot topic. However, by being able to keep abreast of new developments you will be able to swim with the tide. That is the value of a PhD. Of course if you are a budding genius like Einstein then you can discount this advice. Although even he had to work as a clerk in a patent office for 10yrs. It didn't stop him form producing top notch science though.
Faithfully,
KP