Indefinate ban unless I contact helpdesk?

T runner

Hi

Received the following by PM form OscarBravo on Politics when I asked about the duration of a ban.

The ban is indefinite, and will not be lifted before you take the issue up on the Help Desk.

I won't enter into any further PM correspondence with you. Take it to the Help Desk, or drop it.

I was banned for criticising his moderation on a post. The infraction was worth "1 point". Surely it is up to me whether I take this matter to the helpdesk and he cannot threaten me with an indefinate ban in this way?

Beruthiel

Link?

T runner

Beruthiel wrote: »

Link?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=3685145

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=3686721

Original ban and reply

BuffyBot

We can't see your private messages.

I think Beruthial was looking for a link to the threads/posts in question. (You can log out to see them and find the link).

T runner

BuffyBot wrote: »

We can't see your private messages.

I think Beruthial was looking for a link to the threads/posts in question. (You can log out to see them and find the link).

I cant see those threads as Im banned from accessing the forum.

Sorry. Just read that post properly. Will log out now and get that URL for you.

T runner

My post seems to have been deleted.

Here is the URL

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055574430&page=13

BuffyBot

T runner wrote: »

Hi

Received the following by PM form OscarBravo on Politics when I asked about the duration of a ban.



I was banned for criticising his moderation on a post. The infraction was worth "1 point". Surely it is up to me whether I take this matter to the helpdesk and he cannot threaten me with an indefinate ban in this way?

Well - I take it your not objecting to the infraction, as such, because I can se why that was issued.

With regard to PM's - we're not party to what was, or was not said. If you're agreeable, and so is oscarBravo, then they may be published. oscarBravo may yet have comments on this in due course, which he'll be invited to give. Depending on the content of the PM's, referring you to the Help Desk was perfectly fine. Indefinite banning - well, it's extreme, but again it depends on how you conducted yourself.

Judging by the content of your post, and your personal attacks on the mod etc, I don't hold up much hope for the tone of the PM's.

oscarBravo

The ban is indefinite, as distinct from permanent, because T runner was refusing to take complaints about my moderating to this, the correct channel, and insisted on bringing them up in the Politics forum, where it is explicitly forbidden by the charter.

I don't have a difficulty with PMs being published.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

The ban is indefinite, as distinct from permanent, because T runner was refusing to take complaints about my moderating to this, the correct channel, and insisted on bringing them up in the Politics forum, where it is explicitly forbidden by the charter.

I don't have a difficulty with PMs being published.

I did not go to the helpdesk immediately because Oscar Bravo threatened me saying that I had better have proof. What did he mean by this?

Thus, I required time to collect his proof. He then posted saying I had not gone to the helpdesk yet (I have a job to hold down) also added that my claims were vague. As this was on the open forum the only way to challenge this inaccuracy was to reply.
As I felt forced to reply so that my position was not misrepresented by oscarbravos post, and knowing (as oscar bravo did) that any reply would result in a ban. I decided to speak out.

This has in accordance with your rules resulted in an infraction. I require to know the lenght of this infraction for the action I have committed.

(I will make my complaint about Oscar Bravo in due course when my ban is lifted.)


Perhaps when oscarbravo is issuing a post on moderation he should stick to saying the basics: ie: you must take this claim to the helpdesk if you challenge a moderator here again you will be banned.


In this case he also commented on my posts, comments I could not reply to without technically receiving a ban.

Could you show me where exactly the rule is that a moderator can ban a poster indefinately for
questioning his moderation?

I would also like a copy of the post in question, if possible, as it is no longer on the thread.

oscarBravo

Some background (still visible in the thread):

T runner wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's right, I deleted this thread as soon as it appeared.

Oh wait, I didn't. I expressed an opinion that differs from yours. My god, I'm such a fascist.

Interestingly, before you edited your post, it simply read "Unionist Scum" - I'm sure dlofnep would have been along like a shot to complain that you've never had anything bad to say about "nationalist scum" - right dlofnep?

No, but you have warned people in the past and locked threads when things havent gone your way.

For instance, you locked a thread previously over whether citizens in the North were called "Irish" or "British". This was part of an argument showing that the Irish identity was supressed in NI (no Irish history taught in Northern schools etc).
You called this "pedantics."

Someone was threatened with a 6 months ban who legitimately objected to the poster "futurehope" incorrectly (and deliberately) referred to the republic of Ireland as Ireland. You stated that anyone who brought that up again would get the 6 month ban. In this case you should have stated that the correct way the call the relevant entities as a guide for all to follow. (You couldnt ofcourse as the rep of Ireland is the correct name).

There are many more examples.

Ive tried PMing you before as as seem to be the rules but you ignored this.

In my view your political opinions on the Irish issues are too strong and are interfering with your ability as an impartial moderator.

I will be passing my views onto the relevent people.

oscarBravo wrote: »

<snip irrelevant bits>

T runner wrote: »

No, but you have warned people in the past and locked threads when things havent gone your way.

If you're accusing me of biased moderation, take it to the Help Desk, and be prepared to offer evidence.

This is the deleted post:

T runner wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

Stop accusing people of condoning murder. If you have a problem with a post, report it. For the record: no, I don't see a problem with it.

Are you ordering me to stop as a moderator? Please clarify.

But if you want, I'll start banning people for using any phrases that any other person might find offensive in some way - and I'll be very even-handed about it.

Dont be misleading. Show some integrity. Someone using the term "British Ulster" ( a loyalist slogan) in a deliberately antagonistic manner on a thread about a murder by loyalists should be warned. I cant report the post because you choose not to answer reports that dont suit you. I have proof of that.

Also, I've told you that if you have a problem with moderation, to take it up on the Help Desk.

Incorrect. I told you I had a problem with your biased moderation and I would report it, but if it makes you feel more masterful to have it the other way then eat your heart out.

Despite your vague threats earlier, you don't appear to have done so. If you complain about moderation here again - even obliquely - I'll ban you.

Again you deliberately mislead. I gave two specific examples earlier of your biased moderation, nothing vague. I have not reported yet because you threatened me that I had better have proof if I reported (in order to deter me I assume). I will take my time, research and do this right. (Unless you ban me then I cant research I guess)

I have no choice but to complain here as you dont answer PMs from me (and others I assume) unless they fit in with your very pro-British world view.

The ban is in place because you insisted on breaking the forum rules, and seem to believe you have a right to do so. The ban may be lifted when you acknowledge that the rules apply to you, and agree to comply with them.

I'm still happy for PMs to be published.

T runner

Can one of the admins please clarify how long the ban is for complaining about moderation on a post?

If a mod can indefinately ban me for my post I would like to see this rule. Otherwise I would like to know the duration of my ban and get on with it.

I will be making a seperate complaint against Oscar Bravo about what I perceive to be a bias he holds which is interfering with his ability to moderate fairly on issues of Irish politics.

seamus

T runner wrote: »

Can one of the admins please clarify how long the ban is for complaining about moderation on a post?

Oscarbravo clarified it here:

The ban may be lifted when you acknowledge that the rules apply to you, and agree to comply with them.

If a mod can indefinately ban me for my post I would like to see this rule.

The length of a ban is at the moderator's discretion, but is generally as long as is necessary to ensure that the poster does not continue to be a disruptive influence in the forum.

T runner

seamus wrote: »

Oscarbravo clarified it here:


The length of a ban is at the moderator's discretion, but is generally as long as is necessary to ensure that the poster does not continue to be a disruptive influence in the forum.

Can you show me where this is written please? So I am completely at the mercy of oscarbravo?

Some more background:

If you're accusing me of biased moderation, take it to the Help Desk, and be prepared to offer evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarBravo
I don't know why I even read threads like this, never mind participate in them. All they do is (a) raise my blood pressure, and (b) cement ever more firmly my conviction that I never, ever, ever want that basket case of a province in my country.

The reason you dont want that province in your country is because you believe it to be "British" as you have implied many times on related threads.

T Runner

To denounce NI and all the people in it as "basket" cases is simplistic and insulting. When you have an endemic sectarian society it is usually the people at the lower margins who carry out the murder. It is up to those who have power (including all civilians who can) to try and weed out sectarianism from that society and from future societies.

As Irish people from the republic we should have a huge interest in this succeeding. Your Ostrich like comments smacks of ignorance of Irish history.

This type of large gang murder has been a recurring theme for over 200 years in Ulster. Contrary to all hopes the sectarianism that drives this has not gone away. On the contrary it is festering.

From Futurehope

I hope this can happen for the good of all who live in British Ulster.

I objected to this as deliberate antagonism. He is using a known loyalist slogan on a thread about someone being murdered by loyalists and this is allowed???????

This was oscarbravos response:

For the record: no, I don't see a problem with it.

I'm afraid that's more Irish junk.

Another post by this poster which is blatant racism, again unchecked.

Can you explain why these were not moderated on?

The rules are the rules but a loyalist slogan was not moderated on a thread about a murder committed by loyalists. Perhaps my upset is more understandeable now to the admins of boards.ie.?

T runner

??????

seamus

T runner wrote: »

Can you show me where this is written please? So I am completely at the mercy of oscarbravo?

It's not written anywhere (yet) afaik. But you're pretty much at the mercy of oB unless you can provide good reason why he's being unfair. I don't really see any unfairness here - he's provided a means by which you can get unbanned, and he's not asking anything unreasonable.

The reason you dont want that province in your country is because you believe it to be "British" as you have implied many times on related threads.

Irrelevant.

I objected to this as deliberate antagonism. He is using a known loyalist slogan on a thread about someone being murdered by loyalists and this is allowed???????

You can object to it if you like. You didn't report it (afaik). Instead you tried to complain on-thread (again) that the moderators weren't doing their jobs. If you reported it, the moderator will look at it and decide if action is required.

The content of the thread is irrelevant - it's your actions which resulted in this ban.

The rules are the rules but a loyalist slogan was not moderated on a thread about a murder committed by loyalists. Perhaps my upset is more understandeable now to the admins of boards.ie.?

Loyalist slogan or not, it's not your place to moderate the thread or comment about moderation on the thread. I understand why you're annoyed by that poster's comment, but it has nothing to do with the price of pineapples.

If that reference is lost on you, what I mean is that comments made on that thread are irrelevant to the reason why you received the ban. You received the ban because you questioned the moderator on-thread. Does that make sense to you?

BuffyBot

Can you show me where this is written please? So I am completely at the mercy of oscarbravo?

I would have thought the word "discretion" might hint at it not being written in stone anywhere...

As for being completely at the mercy of a mod: no, you have the Admins to look at your complaint and adjudicate. So far, it's not looking all that well as your "evidence: might be classed as flimsy at worst, circumstantial at best..

Coupled with the chip on shoulder you seem to be carrying..you're doing yourself very few favours.

T runner

seamus wrote: »

It's not written anywhere (yet) afaik. But you're pretty much at the mercy of oB unless you can provide good reason why he's being unfair. I don't really see any unfairness here - he's provided a means by which you can get unbanned, and he's not asking anything unreasonable.

I dont understand what is required of me. I have posted on the athletics and Sligo forum with never a problem which is proof that I obey the rules. Please give me a time limit for this ban or else make it permanent.

You can object to it if you like. You didn't report it (afaik). Instead you tried to complain on-thread (again) that the moderators weren't doing their jobs. If you reported it, the moderator will look at it and decide if action is required.

That is not correct. I previously reported 2 posts I had issue with to Oscar Bravo who failed to reply in each case. I had no choice but to act on this post which used the slogan used by the brutal murderers of that innocent man.

I am making a complaint that a loyalist slogan was allowed remain on a boards.ie thread even though a moderator was aware of it. Do I need to start a new thread to make this complaint?

Loyalist slogan or not, it's not your place to moderate the thread or comment about moderation on the thread. I understand why you're annoyed by that poster's comment, but it has nothing to do with the price of pineapples.

I am now complaining about the moderatuon on that thread see above.

If that reference is lost on you, what I mean is that comments made on that thread are irrelevant to the reason why you received the ban.

Less of the condescention please. I am one of the thousands of users who you need to make this site a success. Please cut out the disrespectful tone.

You received the ban because you questioned the moderator on-thread. Does that make sense to you?

Thanks for patronising me again. I understand why I got the ban, crystal clear. I would like however a clear time limit for the ban and not to be forced to play some ridiculous question and answer game with a moderator. A time limit for the ban please or else make it permanent.

seamus

T runner wrote: »

That is not correct. I previously reported 2 posts I had issue with to Oscar Bravo who failed to reply in each case. I had no choice but to act on this post which used the slogan used by the brutal murderers of that innocent man.

OK. It might be a bit of misunderstanding then. You used the "Report Post" button here I'm assuming? When you report a post, the moderator sees it and takes action if necessary. They are under no obligation to respond to it or take action where none is required. You may have been expecting a response where none was forthcoming. If moderators had to respond to every reported post, there would be a lot of time wasted.

I am making a complaint that a loyalist slogan was allowed remain on a boards.ie thread even though a moderator was aware of it. Do I need to start a new thread to make this complaint?

Yes, quite frankly. And you'll need to outline the reasons why you think it's a bad thing and what you think should be done about it and we will respond. That issue is entirely separate to this one and a separate thread would be appropriate.

Less of the condescention please. I am one of the thousands of users who you need to make this site a success. Please cut out the disrespectful tone.

Thanks for patronising me again. I understand why I got the ban, crystal clear. I would like however a clear time limit for the ban and not to be forced to play some ridiculous question and answer game with a moderator. A time limit for the ban please or else make it permanent.

My apologies if it appeared condescending, that wasn't my intention, I was asking you a serious question.

Assuming oscarBravo is satisfied by your above assertion, he should then be able to tell you when the ban is lifted.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

I dont understand what is required of me. I have posted on the athletics and Sligo forum with never a problem which is proof that I obey the rules. Please give me a time limit for this ban or else make it permanent.

Let me make this as clear as I know how.

You were banned for persistent and deliberate breaking of the rule prohibiting the discussion of moderation on the Politics forum. As far as I am concerned, there is only one forum on this website where complaints about moderation will be entertained, and that is this one.

If you acknowledge that you understand that rule, and agree to abide by it, I will lift the ban. If you refuse to agree to abide by that rule, I will not. There is no time limit.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

Let me make this as clear as I know how.

You were banned for persistent and deliberate breaking of the rule prohibiting the discussion of moderation on the Politics forum. As far as I am concerned, there is only one forum on this website where complaints about moderation will be entertained, and that is this one.

If you acknowledge that you understand that rule, and agree to abide by it, I will lift the ban. If you refuse to agree to abide by that rule, I will not. There is no time limit.

I dont understand. When I asked him the lenght of the ban, OscarBravo stated in a PM to me that the ban was indefinite until I brought the issue up with this helpdesk. (You have my permission to check my personal messages). I have duly contacted the helpdesk and brought this issue up.

Now I seem to be required to fulfill yet another obligation. The only thing that has changed since Oscar Bravo made the stipulation to contact the helpdesk is that I have actually contacted the helpdesk. I feel that I am being punished for contacting the helpdesk as requested.

I have fulfilled the moderators original condition and am more than willing to sustain a time ban in addition.

If Oscar Bravo is not prepared to abide by the initial conditions he set me and or add a time limit then I request that the admins overrule oscarbravos decision on this indefinate time limit.

Otherwise I would repeat my request to make this a permanent ban.

oscarBravo

My PM to T runner:

oscarBravo wrote:

T runner wrote:

The rules also state that moderators reply to complaints about posts via PMs. Do the rules not apply to you?

Any chance of letting me know the duration of this ban so I know when to collect my proof for the helpdesk? (or whatever other means are actually available to me. I have no wish to discuss anything with you on the helpdesk I have no faith in your integrity)

The ban is indefinite, and will not be lifted before you take the issue up on the Help Desk.

I won't enter into any further PM correspondence with you. Take it to the Help Desk, or drop it.

I have nothing further to add to my last post on this thread.

T runner

T runner wrote: »

I dont understand. When I asked him the lenght of the ban, OscarBravo stated in a PM to me that the ban was indefinite until I brought the issue up with this helpdesk. (You have my permission to check my personal messages). I have duly contacted the helpdesk and brought this issue up.

Now I seem to be required to fulfill yet another obligation. The only thing that has changed since Oscar Bravo made the stipulation to contact the helpdesk is that I have actually contacted the helpdesk. I feel that I am being punished for contacting the helpdesk as requested.

I have fulfilled the moderators original condition and am more than willing to sustain a time ban in addition.

If Oscar Bravo is not prepared to abide by the initial conditions he set me and or add a time limit then I request that the admins overrule oscarbravos decision on this indefinate time limit.

Otherwise I would repeat my request to make this a permanent ban.

Hi Admins

Could you reply to this post when you have a minute?

thanks

T Runner

T runner

Just to note (from another thread on this forum) that GuanYin has infractioned and banned posters from that very thread warning that a one month ban will ensue on a repeat. How about I get the same ban as them or the equivalent for the particular misdemeanor? Im willing to accept a one month ban if the admins think that fair?

BuffyBot

We'll get back to you when we can get back to you. We're not paid to be here

I'm not going to overrule the mod, and I think he's laid out quite a simple condition that you decide to adhere to, or don't. The choice here is ultimately yours

T runner

But youve missed the point. I have alreday adhered to his condition which was to take my complaint to the helpdesk! I have done this.
He is now requesting another condition.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Let me make this as clear as I know how.

I think its clear from this condescending tone that this seems to be personal for oscarbravo.

The problem with having mods decide what a punishment is is that the punishment can vary greatly for the same misdemeanor giving inconsistancies. I am willing to accept a ban but I am not going to grovel to oscarbravo which is what in essesnce he is demanding. I have fulfilled the initial condition he set out, I have contacted the helpdesk.

Why am I being treated differently to the other posters who were banned from the very same thread. Why am I being singled out in this way?

When you say you will not overrule a mod do you mean that you cannot, or that you will not?

I would like to request that an admin look at what I have done wrong here and give me the appropriate ban. I will give them any guarantee of conduct they require.

BuffyBot

Will not.

Other people, and the actions taken against them are irrelevant. One size does not fit all in moderations, and each case has it's own circumstances surrounding it.

You've had your answer - it's not one you like, it seems, but that's unfortunate. It sometimes can't be helped, however.

oscarBravo has given you a choice - it's now up to you to make it.

T runner

BuffyBot wrote: »

Other people, and the actions taken against them are irrelevant.

I would have thought that the ban given to people for similar misdemeanors should be similar? Are they? Why is my punishment different from the punishment of other posters for similar misdemeanors in the exact same thread? Can I ask to be given examples of their misdemeanors and their punishment to see if I am being treated fairly please?

One size does not fit all in moderations, and each case has it's own circumstances surrounding it.

According to Oscarbravo my circumstances were: " banned for persistent and deliberate breaking of the rule prohibiting the discussion of moderation on the Politics forum."

That should warrant a specific time-ban. Yet I have been firstly told to contact the helpdesk to lift my ban and now being given an extra condition?


I have been told by a politics mod that if I contacted the helpdesk my ban would be lifted. I have done this. Now I have been given yet another condition to fulfill. Why?

You've had your answer - it's not one you like, it seems, but that's unfortunate. It sometimes can't be helped, however.

Could I also request that you please keep the condescention out of your tone to me from now on?

BuffyBot

There is no condescension, just simple statement of fact. We're under no obligation to sugar the pill for you.

You have a choice to make. If, in your next post, you haven't made that choice, the thread will be closed

T runner

BuffyBot wrote: »

Will not.
You've had your answer - it's not one you like, it seems, but that's unfortunate. It sometimes can't be helped, however.

I did not ask you to sweeten the pill I asked you to stop adding poison to it, by being unnecessarily condescending. (The above is quite clearly condescending)

BuffyBot wrote: »

There is no condescension, just simple statement of fact. We're under no obligation to sugar the pill for you.

You have a choice to make. If, in your next post, you haven't made that choice, the thread will be closed

I have made my choice. At 10.07 yesterday OscarBravo informed me by PM that I would get my ban lifted if I contacted the helpdesk.

At 10.30 I contacted the helpdesk.

I have done what was requested of me.

I also stated that I would be complaining about Oscar Bravos moderation on the thread about the murder in Coleraine. (The whole thread was a shambles.)
Unfortunately, Oscar Bravo returned to the forum yesterday afternoon with a new condition.

If a person in authority kept moving the goalposts on a subordinate in a work place situation like this they could rightly be accused of bullying or at least abusing their position of authority.

I notice you have also not commented on OscarBravo not answering my PMs of complaint about posts? Or have you even checked after requesting permission to access my PMs?

I have every intention of obeying the rules on this forum but I see no reason to convey this directly to oscarbravo as I believe he has abused his discretion as a moderator by deliberately moving the goalposts after I did what he asked of me.



I now have stated in this post that I will obey the rules. If that will not suffice then please make the ban permanent. If you refuse that also then please disable my boards.ie. account. I have integrity and you can rest assured I will not return under any other guise.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

I have made my choice. At 10.07 yesterday OscarBravo informed me by PM that I would get my ban lifted if I contacted the helpdesk.

Incorrect. I've already posted the PM above. Once again:

oscarBravo wrote:

The ban is indefinite, and will not be lifted before you take the issue up on the Help Desk.

T runner wrote: »

I have every intention of obeying the rules on this forum...

Thank you. The ban has been lifted.

...but I see no reason to convey this directly to oscarbravo as I believe he has abused his discretion as a moderator by deliberately moving the goalposts after I did what he asked of me.

The problem here is that you decided on a narrow interpretation of what was asked of you. Unfortunately, that interpretation was also an incorrect one.

You broke the rules, and gave every indication that you believed you were entirely within your rights in doing so. You were not. You have said that you intend to obey the rules in future; I'm taking you at your word - but be aware that I will not accept any sophistic attempts to misinterpret your way around them.

BuffyBot

And now that that is done, the thread closes.