Memetic Engineers Required, Apply Within

Zillah

No I haven't completely lost my mind. Allow me to explain.

A new friend and I were talking not long ago. He comes from a Catholic family, would describe himself as a Catholic and yet openly disagrees with almost every belief that makes Catholicism distinct from Christianity (or arguably even theism/deism). What prompted our civil discussion (really ) was when I heard he had recently decided to start going to weekly mass again. Eventually he boiled his position down to this: Even though he disagrees with Catholicism it is the medium by which he practices his faith.

Afterwards it occurred to me that I had in fact encountered dozens of people who share an almost identical position. And yet all of these people, perhaps millions around the world, are adding their numbers to the authority of Christian churches, Muslims churches and various others simply because they had nothing else.

And so I had an idea. A socially concerned atheist more devious than I should create a tailored, satisfying, socially responsible but utterly inoffensive religion as a means by which to indulge these people's longing for structure, prayer, God-talk etc, but also thereby remove the horrendous baggage that most atheists so strongly oppose (religious influence on matters such as gay rights, evolution, sex, morality etc).

Let's be honest, few posters here (if any) are in any practical sense bothered by simple theism in a fairly pure form. It's the utterly unnecessary, ancient and outdated nonsense that comes with most religions that actually cause problems.

So here's a (very rough) outline of the shape I'd think would work for such a church:

- God exists.
- God created the universe.
- God has great love for his creation and wants the best for you, though sometimes you may not understand how or why.
- Upon death, those who have lived good lives enter into a heavenly communion with God where they experience timeless joy.
- "Good" is defined in the most generic wishy washy sense. It allows for people to feel obligated to treat others well but doesn't result in a Catholic style inner guilt and suppression.
- Upon death, those who have lived wicked lives simply cease to be, as they have rejected the joyous nature of communion with God.
- "Wicked" is similarly defined in generic wishy washy terms. This is to allow people the sense of justice they so desire when they see things like rape and murder go unpunished by temporal authorities.
- I chose oblivion over hell as hell is far too vindictive and nasty for such an innocuous belief system and is difficult to reconcile with the notion of a loving God.
- An alternative to oblivion could be some variety of penance where the soul is punished for a while or allowed to redeem themselves in some fashion, after which they may enter the joyous communion.
- Historical figures viewed as prophets, saints and messiahs were often simply wise and virtuous people, but who usually allowed their own beliefs and opinions to influence what was otherwise a close relationship with God.

In relation to mass and prayers, I'm think that we should take the approach that people are imperfect creatures, and that although God can and does speak to humans, we cannot be sure which texts are real and which are fabrications, so you should turn away from such misleading things and focus on building a personal relationship with God.

Praying to God is an emotional experience whereby you gain strength and a sense of well being from coming close to him. Don't pray to win the lottery, have your enemies hit by lightning or for Jack's cancer to go away. God does not perform miracles. Praying to God is about building a relationship, asking for guidance and focusing upon being a happy and moral person.

Now, while we're specifically engineering a new infectious memetic structure, let's add some traits that suit our purposes:

- One must come to God and form a relationship in one's own time and of one's own free will. Don't try to convert atheists and agnostics, they must find the truth themselves (cuts down on proselytizing; remember, we want to convert religious people to a safer and more reasonable religion, not increase the net amount of theists in the world)

- Even atheists and those of other religions may go to heaven if they have lived good lives, as upon death they see the truth and are presented with the choice of entering heaven. They got some things wrong but the most important part, being good to your fellow humans, they got spot on. (further reduces proselytizing, family and friends will be happy to believe that their atheist loved ones will see the light and meet them in heaven)

I'm sure there's loads more I could go into but this post is already pretty huge and I think that's enough description for you to get the idea.

The most devious amongst you may have noticed that all of these principles are tailored so as to be unfalsifiable in such a way as to ensure an absolute minimum of conflict between the Church and any real world endeavour, such as science. NOMA could become a reality.

NB: I of course view this as the lesser of two evils. I'd prefer if everyone became responsible and rational atheists but most people aren't ready for that. I'd much rather see a religion like this stimulating the God-spot of the brain that any of the current super-religions.

To Our Resident Believers: Please don't be too offended at my duplicity. Perhaps take this post as an opportunity to see which parts of your faith that I think are beneficial and positive.

Now, obviously I'm not going to run out tomorrow and rent the new Church premises, but I think this could make an interesting thought game.

Dades

Interesting. Sounds a bit like the Unitarians.

My question is how would you get people on board without some kind of a Holy Book they can grasp? Methinks you need to write a bestseller first.

Rev Hellfire

You need an enemy as well, nothing creates a community better than a common opponent. Hate fosters a fine community spirit.

You'll also need to set someone (perhaps yourself) up as a spiritual guide, a leader of sorts to prevent the faithful veering off the side of righteousness. After all some people actually like leaving the difficult decisions to their betters, better you than one of the 'bad' religious leaders.

toiletduck

Sounds like Wayism from Andromeda ( ). A mish mash of all religions, which included other religions founders/main guys as wise teachers.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

My question is how would you get people on board without some kind of a Holy Book they can grasp? Methinks you need to write a bestseller first.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if it's possible to get by without one?

Many religions have named gods, and some of these evolved into religions where you couldn't name the gods (eg, Yaweh), and a number of these evolved into religions where the gods had no names and few (if any) attributes that you can actually pin down.

What about a religion in which the founder (founders?) provide "teachings" orally and to require the flock to transmit them orally too (ie, no fixed recordings). This should accelerate the the evolution of the religion, since religious propagators will be forced to tell their recruits what the recruits want to hear, without fear of contradiction by some fixed text or media clip.

The downside of this being that a substantial section of religious believers fixate upon holybooks to start with and it looks like you end up with a divine tradeoff between losing recruits who require a holybook versus gaining recruits because of an infinitely variable message.

Oh yes, and a good symbol's needed too. Self-destruction seems to go down well, so what about a razor blade, a noose or a jar of sleeping tablets?

toiletduck

A 6 pack of Bavaria and a pack of Marlboro Reds perhaps?

What about a religion in which the founder (founders?)....

I think it best to stick with the one founder. Lessens the chances of a split/schism in the early stages of the religions growth.

Goduznt Xzst

We'll need someone to lay out a rough 1 year, 5 year, 2000 year forecast.

You also need to have an end game scenario in mind, one which will make every generation feel they are so close to it that they hold their faith. Say, a prediction that death and sickness will be abolished when there are hurricanes, earthquakes and US teen-idol scandals all in the same year.

The Mad Hatter

robindch wrote: »

Now that you mention it, I wonder if it's possible to get by without one?

Buddhism seems to have coped ok for the last 2600 years...

Red Hand

I think I posted recently somewhere in an offhand manner about inoculising people against harmful religions, and this is an example of a vaccine that Zillah has come up with.:)

For such a vaccine to be effective, you'll need to get them young. Children believe adults, even if what they say is often illogical which makes them really susceptable to religions.

So, how'd you get hold of them? How about using something like Harry Potter books phenomenom with the religion being a central part of the book?

Plus, would it be a good idea to have martyrs as examples of decent people who are persecuted for their, in this case, harmless beliefs?

Any ideas for a name? Soul Snatchers, Flesh Reapers...how about Niceism?:pac:

studiorat

It would need to have crystals and smelly candles involved though. Pull the new age crowd in too.

studiorat

and beads, like beads.

robindch

Zillah wrote: »

a tailored, satisfying, socially responsible but utterly inoffensive religion as a means by which to indulge these people's longing for structure, prayer, God-talk etc, but also thereby remove the horrendous baggage that most atheists so strongly oppose

Well, what about grabbing Tolkien's works and adding organs, incense and prayers? There's a moderately coherent theology in the books and at least the main man isn't a homicidal maniac.

Or do the same with the Jedi nonsense. There's a good following there already amongst the spotty males with anoraks.

Or might be better to drop the idea -- Isn't L Ron Hubbard reputed to have started Scientology as a bet?

Zillah

Huh...the Star Wars thing could work. The whole Light Side thing is a perfect basis for a wishy washy 'good' way of life.

AtomicHorror

I reckon this is what Jesus was aiming for. Take the useful stuff and ditch the irrational BS. He'd have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky Jews.

Bduffman

I reckon you're on to something there - I think there are quite a number of 'catholics' like the friend Zillah mentioned. And there are even more who think they are catholic but actually aren't
Just this week I was in conversation with a group of work colleagues about the abuse scandals. One stated that he drifted away from the church recently because of his lack of some basic beliefs like transubstantiation. Another colleague stated with some conviction that transubstantiation was 'only symbolic'. When I explained what he was supposed to belive as a catholic his face went visibly white when he realised he might actually be a protestant:D.
He might be looking for a new church as we speak.

The Mad Hatter

robindch wrote: »

Well, what about grabbing Tolkien's works and adding organs, incense and prayers? There's a moderately coherent theology in the books and at least the main man isn't a homicidal maniac.

There's already a bunch of people who do this. Some kind of subset of wiccans.

Zillah wrote: »

Huh...the Star Wars thing could work. The whole Light Side thing is a perfect basis for a wishy washy 'good' way of life.

That was largely based on Buddhism anyway, I think.

What you need is a charismatic leader. Which could be a problem if you state that people aren't supposed to be converted.

dvpower

Do you accept paypal?

What's this about engineers?

darjeeling

Zillah wrote: »

A socially concerned atheist more devious than I should create a tailored, satisfying, socially responsible but utterly inoffensive religion as a means by which to indulge these people's longing for structure, prayer, God-talk etc, but also thereby remove the horrendous baggage that most atheists so strongly oppose (religious influence on matters such as gay rights, evolution, sex, morality etc).

The Church of England comes very close: scones - yes; Revelation - no thank you. Even Richard Dawkins finds it hard to get worked up about them. Pragmatism hasn't stopped the fall in congregations, though.

Flyboy!!!

studiorat wrote: »

and beads, like beads.

Are you talking Rosaries or Sex toys or maybe a strange hybrid of both? Can't imagine a cross being too comfortable...

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I reckon this is what Jesus was aiming for. Take the useful stuff and ditch the irrational BS. He'd have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky Jews.

And I thought that was Longines sticking him with that spear...



Besides all that, why just one God, we could put forward an acceptance of multiple Gods like Hinduism?

Created the Universe? Why not "is the Universe?" Like the all permeating Jedi "Force?"

God's Love is our own love and that we'll only get the best for eachother by wanting the best for eachother and by helping eachother to get the best out of life?

"God is Love." You can't get much more New Agey than that.

Good would be better described as what's "Good for the Soul." That would deal with any niggly negative feelings like guilt, jealousy or others that lead to negative urges or points of view like revenge, superiority, racism so on and so forth. If people have feelings that lead to negative thoughts, about them selves or others, or negative actions like self harm or hate crimes, they'll know that these thoughts are counterproductive and that they should find ways to explain life in a positive light.

Heaven and Hell are just controls by Churches saying you can only get to Heaven through us so do as we say or else. Probably better going with Reincarnation, saying no matter how you live life you'll always be back but unless you improve things now, you'll be coming back to sh1thole. This would urge collective struggle to improve things to bring about "heaven on Earth." The otherside of that is if people don't try to improve things and live life selfishly, they'll be coming back to "Hell on Earth."

Even the Catholic Church abolished their penance period, Purgatory, there a few years ago, I think that's a Nonrunner. People start thinking they may aswell act as they like and just work it off in limbo ala Paulie Walnuts in The Sopranos.

Historical figures and Saints? The way just on their way to realising this but were acting within the constraints and belief systems of their own times times.

It could be put across that this point of view is just inevitable and it might be merely a way of life instead of a Religion as such and that it's where we're all heading anyway so why not jump on the bandwagon sooner than later coz if you do we may have our Heaven on Earth by this time next year type of thing.

Just putting that out there!

The Mad Hatter

Flyboy!!! wrote: »

Are you talking Rosaries or Sex toys or maybe a strange hybrid of both? Can't imagine a cross being too comfortable...

I did actually recently come across (har, har) a website that sold religiously-themed sex toys. Strangest thing I've ever been linked to from Twitter.

marco_polo

What is your expected turnover in the first year?

Húrin

Most Catholics who don't agree with Church doctrines know nothing else, so they have no other medium to practice their faith through.

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Buddhism seems to have coped ok for the last 2600 years...

Buddhists have their scriptures.

The Mad Hatter

Húrin wrote: »

Buddhists have their scriptures.

Yes, but they don't have any central holy book or text, and they do have a rule (insofar as Buddhism has rules) that you question everything and don't accept that which you don't find to be true.

The scriptures are generally approached with a you-can-take-it-or-leave-it attitude.

bou

Buddhism has plenty of scriptures. The discourses and sayings of the Buddha fill a bookshelf. And then there's the commentators, a library full.
And it isn't exactly take it or leave it. The thinking is that you should examine and analyze it deeply and try to test it out in practice.
Apologies for intruding on your quest.

The Mad Hatter

bou wrote: »

Buddhism has plenty of scriptures. The discourses and sayings of the Buddha fill a bookshelf. And then there's the commentators, a library full.
And it isn't exactly take it or leave it. The thinking is that you should examine and analyze it deeply and try to test it out in practice.
Apologies for intruding on your quest.

Yes, my phrasing was a bit glib, but my point was that in Buddhism scriptures are generally to be questioned, and rejected if necessary, rather than taken at face value, and that some Buddhists go through their lifetime(s, if you want to look it that way) without ever reading them.

ScumLord

I've always said the world needs a new religion and that religion isn't bad it's just corrupted. I'd base it on the assumption God created everything so the only way to truly understand god is to study his work.

The only problem is that if your religion isn't well established already everybody's going to think it's some crazy made up hippie craze.

The Mad Hatter

ScumLord wrote: »

I've always said the world needs a new religion and that religion isn't bad it's just corrupted. I'd base it on the assumption God created everything so the only way to truly understand god is to study his work.

The only problem is that if your religion isn't well established already everybody's going to think it's some crazy made up hippie craze.

Please - that's not gonna stop a religion in its tracks.

*coughmormonismcough* *coughscientologycough*

Excuse me, I just had the strangest phlegm.

ScumLord

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Please - that's not gonna stop a religion in its tracks.

*coughmormonismcough* *coughscientologycough*

Excuse me, I just had the strangest phlegm.

Ya but who takes them seriously? Do you know any sceintologist that isn't ridiculed for it?

The Mad Hatter

ScumLord wrote: »

Ya but who takes them seriously?

Er, scientologists and mormons?

Valmont

If we run with this we can finally get rid of the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster! analogy. All hail Zillahism!