This may seem like a new idea

STBR

... but I was just wondering; is the only thing the church has on you stating that you're a Christian a baptismal cert. [Is there a confirmational cert. also?]

I, like the thousands of other Irish people wanting to do this (maybe more in light or recent events), wish to no longer have any connection to the Catholic/Christian church.

I'm not sure if the whole Defection by Formal Act will do it for me since they apparently still count/claim you, and I don't like the idea of my name being in any way connected to an organisation such as this.

So what I am prepared to do is physically retrieve my baptismal cert. and dispose of it.

Seems like a better idea than having them putting a little "note" on it.

I'd be very appreciative of your answers and views on this.


P.s. Please don't start the "where's the point?" discussion.
I have countless reasons, and I don't want any connection with the organisation protrayed in the news lately.

Coriolanus

Well, they can't claim you as a congregant for statistical purposes afaik. Then again who pays attention to the whole 4m Catholics in Ireland thing anyway, when you can take a look at the attendance figures to get a better idea.

I think a record of the actual Christening is legally allowed. The analogy I was given was that say you worked for GlobCorp and they were involved in a scandal so you quit. You wouldn't have a right to expunge all records mentioning that you were once an employee.

Basically, I don't think you have a legal right to all paper or other copies of your baptism.

STBR

Nevore wrote: »

Well, they can't claim you as a congregant for statistical purposes afaik. Then again who pays attention to the whole 4m Catholics in Ireland thing anyway, when you can take a look at the attendance figures to get a better idea.

I think a record of the actual Christening is legally allowed. The analogy I was given was that say you worked for GlobCorp and they were involved in a scandal so you quit. You wouldn't have a right to expunge all records mentioning that you were once an employee.

Basically, I don't think you have a legal right to all paper or other copies of your baptism.

Thanks for the reply.

Are you sure they can't claim you? I suppose the census is still something to go by anyhow, more than what they say - not as if they're into facts.

I understand what you mean with the analogy, but the thing is you would have applied for the job consensually.

Not like being forced into it before you can even speak.

I was wondering about the legalities too.

Wonder what the Data Protection stance is on this?

Are you legally entitled to anything with records on you, or is it just legally entitled to a copy of it?

EDIT: As far as I know, you're legally allowed to view and correct any document/record referring to you.

Coriolanus

After looking into it, you might have some hope of getting the records expunged rather than altered.

5. Right to change or remove your details If you discover that a data controller has details about you that are not factually correct, you can ask them to change or, in some cases, remove these details.
Similarly, if you feel that the organisation or person does not have a valid reason for holding your personal details or that they have taken these details in an unfair way, you can ask them to change or remove these details.
In both cases, you can write to the organisation or person, explaining your concerns or outlining which details are incorrect. Within 40 days, the organisation must do as you ask or explain why they will not do so.

From:
http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/rights/RightsPlainEnglish.htm&CatID=16&m=r

As to not being allowed count you as a member, yeah, I'm pretty sure they can't. Digging about but the best I can find is a Priest saying that while someone who makes the defection is no longer a member of the church, they're still christian.

Zillah

We should really sticky a thread about this, it's come up at least 8 times in the last couple of years. Someone with more energy than I will no doubt link to the more useful threads.

STBR

Nevore wrote: »

After looking into it, you might have some hope of getting the records expunged rather than altered.


From:
http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/rights/RightsPlainEnglish.htm&CatID=16&m=r

As to not being allowed count you as a member, yeah, I'm pretty sure they can't. Digging about but the best I can find is a Priest saying that while someone who makes the defection is no longer a member of the church, they're still christian.

Wow, that's an amazing find actually.

But would this case study void that?

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case_Study_8/03_Catholic_Church_Baptismal_Records/107.htm

Then again, that was back in 2003 - Maybe it's time to suggest a recheck?

STBR

Zillah wrote: »

We should really sticky a thread about this, it's come up at least 8 times in the last couple of years. Someone with more energy than I will no doubt link to the more useful threads.

Yes it should seriously be stickied.

And I'm aware of the other threads, but this is a different question.

I don't want it amended, I want them to get rid of my personal information altogether.

Coriolanus

This

Cast Study 8 wrote:

With regard to his request to have his data deleted from the Register, should the relevant record be identified by him, it is my understanding that the data could not be deleted from the Register as it is essential for the administration of Church affairs to maintain a register of all the people who have been baptised.

seems to clash with this.

1.5 What is excessive information?

The Data Protection Acts require that only the minimum necessary personal data should be sought and used to allow for the performance of the function to which it relates. This requires a Data Controller in all situations to be certain that the data that is being sought is appropriate to the reason for which it was sought. A data controller must be able to show that each piece of personal data sought from a person is needed for a legitimate reason. Where data is not needed for the reason for which it was sought this would constitute a breach of the Data Protection Acts.

Since one would be stating ones intention to leave the Church, I can't see any legitimate reason that they would need to retain the Baptismal information.

Though I'd suspect that they'd argue that the Baptism itself is immutable and they'd need to retain a copy incase you ever wanted to rejoin the congregation or something.

lostexpectation

this is the depatism thread on atheist.ie http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=413&p=24099#p24099

has anybody seen their baptismal cert in church,

http://www.freewebs.com/dublinstreams/DefectCCCover003.jpg

you see in this he refers to a baptismal register, so is there a register with just a list of names and dates or a register and then filing cabinet with copy of baptismal cert?

i'd have feeling they'd again say, you can't deny the event happened, but you could say well you have my details in the register you don't need the cert too.

they may concede to shredding it themselves.