Is TM overated?

Flecktarn

I was just wondering why Tokyo Marui are so expensive?

There guns are all ABS due to Japenese law so that problem cant be solved but what about stock fps rates?

Personally myself I think you'd be better off with JG or Dboys with metal exteriors and stronger power.

I know I'm contradicting myself here because most clone companies copy TM gear but surely they dont copy all that TM release?

I know that they basically invented airsoft but are they not up against stiff competion with the amount of companies making all sort of AEG's and they also do have unique pieces but I dont really see them being much more reliable or dazzling than other companies.

Thanks.

(Mods move if needed)

Stercus Accidit

Yeah, tm are behind on innovation lately, but have gotten moving on new ebb aegs and some new gbbs.

But for realism of build and strength they can't compete with other high ends, g&g, vfc and even dboys and jg beat them on a lot of counts but due to being chinese low cost companies.

mle1324

They will never be good as G&G.Cant wait to get meself one of them:rolleyes:.

Masada

I would say the oposite, they are the most inovative of all the manufactures and all their stuff always performs well. the plastic body thing is a little off putting but there is a lot more of their guns being made from metal these days, their blowback AK and Sopmod as examples.
there internals are all good bar the gears. they'll be perfectly reliable at the standard fps but once you up that power a little the gears wear a lot faster. dboys and JG do some of the best standard gears out there at the moment. they use that typical XYT gears and they are stronger than TM, CA (lol) and some of the more fancy brands like VFC etc.
build quality is usually very good with the TM too and the barrels are good aswell as the hopup. their pistons are known as some of the best out there but overall when you take into account their price i would say they are over rated. their metal guns tend to be way overpriced when compared to similar from other makers. their more common ABS guns are priced similarly to a lot of very good guns that come with full metal receivers. most guns can be brought up to a respectable spec for not a lot of money these days so i dont rate TM that highly really. their pistols are good too but as they are all plastic.

mle1324

I suppose we cant really argue with Richie's post considering he would probley know more than most of us when it comes to the insides and outsides of an airsoft gun.
If i was going to buy a TM i would only buy the MP7 and MK23.
But when im buying my next assult rifel type AEG it will be a G&G

Flecktarn

mle1324 wrote: »

If i was going to buy a TM i would only buy the MP7 and MK23.

Yeah thats what I like about TM they have nice fiddly bits like the LAM on the mk.23

Stercus Accidit

My point was they were sitting on their arses with regards innovation, they can't compete price wise with the cloners, so thats why they are bringing out new stuff now, like the l96, and the ebb's.

Masada

Well in fairness they are made in japan and thats not really a country you could compare to china, its like if an irish company started tomorrow. theres no way to compete with the cheap labour and materials of china. As far as inovation goes, its difficult to say TM dont do inovation when pretty much everything out there is copied from their basic designs. all the gearboxs and parts were copied and now we have things like the Sopmop, (which im not really that big on but hey, its an inovation. ) the L96 etc etc. rather than copy existing designs they start from the beginning and do things their way.

CrazyRabbit

TM are not as reliable as people seem to think.

But they were, and perhaps still are great innovators.

And they are overpriced.

Toasty113

Another point for TM is that almost every after market product is made with their specs. Doesnt seem a big deal but miniscule size variations in clones can render it impossible to use certain add ons. I've even had trouble with someone elses mags once!.

That said, its hard to justify the large price differences. Even if there happened to be lower quality internals most people can have them fixed for less, or fix them themselves.

I bought CA and regret the 170 extra on top of JGs G36k. Its all the same really

mle1324

Toasty113 wrote: »

Another point for TM is that almost every after market product is made with their specs.

thats true aswell i mean like my WE 1911 broke on me and the shop that is repairing it for me is getting a TM part for me as far as i know.

Harlequin Wolf

In my opinion TM aren't worth the price, certainly not for the ABS bodies anyway. My primary concern when getting an AEG is the build of the body and companies like Dboys make good metal bodies at cheap prices. Getting a good body is the primary concern because the internals are the easiest to replace, it's more cost effective to buy a metal Dboys and beef up it's internals than buy a TM.

Toasty113

Makes you wonder where all these people are coming from when they say "clones sre sh*te, they just break, you have to pay for what you get" etc.

kevteljeur

Perhaps, without TM doing the basic design and investing in development, there would be no cheap clones. So with them you're paying for the design work and the cost of production in a developed nation (trading standards, consumer law, health and safety), where as with the clones you're literally just paying for cheap manufacturing in China.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall G&G being also more expensive, and also doing their own hardware designs. It costs money to design good equipment.



.

AirsoftEire.com

The quality speaks for itself, you get what you pay for. In 2 years, we've had 1 Glock 17 come back. Not one other Marui item.

Steve

Toasty113

kevteljeur wrote: »

Perhaps, without TM doing the basic design and investing in development, there would be no cheap clones. So with them you're paying for the design work and the cost of production in a developed nation (trading standards, consumer law, health and safety), where as with the clones you're literally just paying for cheap manufacturing in China.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall G&G being also more expensive, and also doing their own hardware designs. It costs money to design good equipment.



.

That may be, but design is a one-off expense, why dont prices drop after a while. And CA are located in china but they still maintain high prices even thought alot of their gun are just copting mauris design too

hoplite

Toasty113 wrote: »

That may be, but design is a one-off expense, why dont prices drop after a while. And CA are located in china but they still maintain high prices even thought alot of their gun are just copting mauris design too

CA being over-rated deserves its own thread :pac:

I've been happy with my TM purchases to date

VSR-10 g-sec
TM MP7
AK47

Flecktarn

Oh I'm saying that I havent been happy with their products

I've had problems just that the seem to be talked about a lot while other brand have some better qualities

NakedDex

CA were a clone company that became rather good. Up until about three years ago that is, when they suddenly started becoming ridiculously bad again, to the point where their reputation precedes them and people just laugh when you say you bought a CA. They kept their pricing up because of a number of reasons;

1) They have a big American market, who seem to somehow still have a love affair with CA (which makes me think this is where all CA's good stock is going, and we're getting the cack)
2) They're still getting sales based off their old reputation of good gear so they don't need to change the prices.
3) Prestige pricing. Pricing their rifles up at the same level as the big players like TM, VFC, G&G etc means they can imply the same status. If you saw a new brand of car in a show room that you had never seen or heard of before in your life, but it was the same price as a Ferrari F430, you'd be forgiven for assuming it's a bloody amazing car. It could, however, be a Morris Minor with a body kit and a shiny new name.
Most people who start out in airsoft pay a lot of attention to the price. They hear about brands like TM and G&G and see the average price of their rifles. Seeing another brand producing a similar gun in the same price bracket would give you the impression that it's just as good as it's similarly priced, high-end counterparts.

hoplite

Many would agree that they tend to have the best stock hop-ups.

FPS can be low-ish but is often compensated for by the aforementioned hop-up. They shoot really smoothly in my experience.

Now where is my fanboi t-shirt.

Shop around and there is good value to found in the TM range as well.

zero19

I wouldn't say tm is overrated personally, their accuracy is excellent stock, the tm m14 is a great example, their p90 is also great for a cqb weapon. Their gbb's though are definitely my favourite especially their meu, it's horribly accurate compared to lower end kjws etc. The vsr series are THE bolt action rifle to have as well as any sniper will tell you, I think i'm one of few who doesn't mind the plastic bodies though, i think that's why people feel they are overpriced and overrated.

andros

In my humble opinion TM are not over rated. They are item ready for a Japanese this is why they have ABS bodys and low stock FPS. Interiors and wiring is superior comparing to LPGs.

The main selling point for brands like CYMA and JG is their stock fps. Ususally they clock between 350 - 420 fps out of the box. (which doesn't make a difference here).

But there is a reason why those AEGs are cheap:

1. Big inconsistancy in quality. (lack of proper QA, makes them more price competitive) It happens, LPGs just don't work out of the box or break after 3rd skirmish.
2. Low operational cost.
3. They don't manufacture own components, just assamble them. Most of Low-End companies uses components manufactured by the same company.
4. Quality of materials and parts being used is low.

I'm not saying LPGs are bad, I've two JG G36c myself (one is for spares), but I also have Star G36K and differences are very easy to spot.

1. Much better quality wiring, robust mechbox.
2. Quality of ABS used is of higher standard.
3. Injection moulds used to prepare parts of much better quality.
4. Magwell feeds mags way better.
etc.

I got my first AEG over 6 years ago. TM MP5A4 and had no problem with it for 4 almsost 4 years. Friend of mine got the same TM roughly at the same time and is still using it. Our other friend have TM G3 now moded to a sniper rifle. Never slightest problem with it.

I've to dissagree TM is overated.

Masada

andros wrote: »

I'm not saying LPGs are bad, I've two JG G36c myself (one is for spares), but I also have Star G36K and differences are very easy to spot.

Star use XYT gears too. so its very likely your JG and Star have the same gears.

TheDoc

I always get confused when people cast aside tm as a good brand. So they dont have metal bodies. That is hardly a bad point. Internally they seem pretty solid. But when you buy a tm you are paying for one of the best hopup units around. Because of there relatively low fps they come with a soft hop rubber as standard. This creates a more efficent hop up effect. My first and only tm gun is their mp7. Ive no problem equalling or outranging most assault rifles on the field and clone rifles havnt a chance. Id say the could drop their prices a bit. Most new people wont consider a tm because they are mostly plastic which is unfortunate.

Stercus Accidit

But a hop up costs a tenner! Fact is TM aren't worth the extra money, a lot of the time there is a much better value for money JG version.

Beast ASI

Overrated? Certainly not - Still the most reliable gun you can buy today in my opinion. Sure they don't have uber l33t metal bodies and 320fps, but they're built fantastically, have excellent range due to their hop system, which at 280fps usually equals the same range as some Chinese copies.

Overpriced? This is the main problem. NO, they are not overpriced, the majority of you are comparing them to Chinese clones. I started airsoft just over 3 years ago, there were no clones, TM's were £400ish and some people would have considered that a fair price compared to the competition at the time and the quality of the product. They're built in Japan, and obviously have a far superior manufacturing process compared to some of the stuff coming out of China. They're not going to drop their prices by 50% over a few years just to compete on price (Which they will never be able to do) so as someone above said they're releasing new models hoping to compete on quality.

TM Hi-Cappa - Probably the best pistol available on the market right now?
TM VSR-10 - Probably the best sniper available on the market right now?
TM MP7 - Easily the best AEP out now.
TM Gearbox - Always perfectly shimmed, all parts fit perfectly with each other. One of the best pistons available and the most reliable motor on the market too. Only poor point about them is the gears, which are in fact, fine, as long as you don't want to upgrade.

They are still world market leaders in pistols etc, they tend not to care much about what's happening outside of Japan, as that's their largest market obviously, which is why they don't really take into account a lot of people's opinions about them. But they are showing innovation - Their blowback range, looks like it will spawn a whole new generation of guns.

senordingdong

My only AEG is a TM and I bought it over a year ago.

It hasn't given the slightest bit of trouble, but I see people left right and centre using clones and high ends like G & G, and have them literaly fall apart in their hands.

CrazyRabbit

If you consider that the average TM AEG probably costs about €40 to manufacture, then they are very overpriced and therefore overated.

thermo

iv a tm meu and without a doubt its the BEST pistol iv ever owned or used!
when repairing or upgrading my aegs i try where possible to use tm parts (motors ect) and always have fantastic results on reliability!

GrumPy

Hmmm... I recently bought a TM M4A1 and have to say, the build quality and ACCURACY over an old clone I had is head over heals. Only issue I have with it is low fps. Most Iv'e seen it fire at was .77, it's usually about .58 though. Maybe the hopup was on when I got it chrono'd recently.
Unfortunately, can't check it again as the FEDS took all my gear.
But from using it about the garden, and the two times I did manage to skirmish with it, I was very happy with the extra cash I spent on it. Really solid quality about it. Wonder if it's worth getting a spring upgrade to push it up nearer the .90+ mark?

Mate of mine bought an M92FS and MP5A5 both TM. And again, both weapons are very accurate and seem solid. That's my two cents anyways!

Beast ASI

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

If you consider that the average TM AEG probably costs about €40 to manufacture, then they are very overpriced and therefore overated.

If your going to use that concept (and take into account that they have to pay for Japanese labour etc, it's going to be more than that), then think about how much Chinese guns cost to produce.....?

I'm guessing they're now overpriced too.

senordingdong

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

But a hop up costs a tenner! Fact is TM aren't worth the extra money, a lot of the time there is a much better value for money JG version.

How can you of all people say that?

I remember the first time we played together at the Gathering 1.
You spent the whole weekend, in your tent, fixing your clones.

My TM rocked all weekend.

I recall it was something similar for Gathering 2 aswell.

TheDoc

Irony


Tm P90 just got dropped in stripped

GrumPy

TheDoc wrote: »

Irony


Tm P90 just got dropped in stripped

P90 though, ffs. :rolleyes:

Toasty113

GrumPy wrote: »

P90 though, ffs. :rolleyes:

Why would that was make a difference?

Beast ASI

He's being sarcastic

senordingdong

TheDoc wrote: »

Irony


Tm P90 just got dropped in stripped

'cos the owner took it part or what?

GrumPy

Toasty113 wrote: »

Why would that was make a difference?

Iv'e never seen a p90 that worked properly. Even mid-caps (68 round clips on the p90 if I recall correctly?) suck, and break after a while. Dont get me started on 300 round mags. Its mainly the clips, nothing wrong with the actual gun. But aeg pretty useless if it wont fire corrrectly. :rolleyes:

senordingdong

GrumPy wrote: »

Iv'e never seen a p90 that worked properly. Even mid-caps (68 round clips on the p90 if I recall correctly?) suck, and break after a while. Dont get me started on 300 round mags. Its mainly the clips, nothing wrong with the actual weapon. But weapons pretty useless if it wont fire corrrectly. :rolleyes:

I have eight of the 68rd mags for a year and they give me no trouble.

GrumPy

Guess the 6 or so p90's Iv'e seen were just a bad bunch so!

Even still, I'd be reluctant to invest in one.

senordingdong

No, it's perfectly possible mine are the exception.
What exactly went wrong with the mags?

kdouglas

GrumPy wrote: »

Iv'e never seen a p90 that worked properly. Even mid-caps (68 round clips on the p90 if I recall correctly?) suck, and break after a while. Dont get me started on 300 round mags. Its mainly the clips, nothing wrong with the actual weapon. But weapons pretty useless if it wont fire corrrectly. :rolleyes:

also, please read the forum charter, airsoft guns are not weapons.


Other than that, TM P90 has been going strong for about two years now, never had a problem, mags are fiddly sometimes, but grand when you take care of them.

zero19

P90 mags are excellent once looked after, my 4 hicaps feed flawlessly, the gun has NEVER let me down and it's the quietest aeg i own with that excellent suppressor

Head_Hunter

My TM P90 never game me any issues, neither did any of the 6 mags.

CrazyRabbit

Beast ASI wrote: »

If your going to use that concept (and take into account that they have to pay for Japanese labour etc, it's going to be more than that), then think about how much Chinese guns cost to produce.....?

I'm guessing they're now overpriced too.

They are all overpriced in comparison to their production price. In the case of the Chinese clones, it's also a case that the people on the manufacturing lines aren't paid enough for the work they do. The company still makes a massive markup profit though.

It's a bit like bottles of wine. Some are better than others, but you can't justify the €40-€500+ cost per bottle for all the decent ones.

TM guns may be better than some, or worse than some, but they all cost a lot more than they should, and are therefore overrated.

mechwarrior

i don't think TM are overrated just because they use very good quality - outside the box they're relatively better than a lot others - that said, i also think they're not as powerful as some others (like A&K or G&G)...

... my opinion, I rather go for a G&G than for a TM - not as expensive and they perform as good out of the box..

Irishmaster

I dont think TM are overated. They are very good internally and expecially externally. Obviuosly they arent full metal but they smack of quality! When you hold a TM its nice. I do think they are overpriced now seeing what you can get nowadays! I suppose you can see TM as being a Ferrari not well tuned!:)