Cavity Insulation Question

themullet

Hi There,

I was just wondering if any one might have any opinions on this. At the moment I am planning to build my own house and I am hoping to have an A Rated home by the time I am finished. But recently somebody told me that when I am building I shouldn't bother putting any Kingspan in the cavity. Instead I should finish all blockwork and then have it pumped full of insulation. I was told that if the Kingspan insulation gets wet or damp during the build, that it loses some of it's insulating properties. Is this true?

Also could anybody recommend the best insulation to use. thanks

sydthebeat

themullet wrote: »

Hi There,

I was just wondering if any one might have any opinions on this. At the moment I am planning to build my own house and I am hoping to have an A Rated home by the time I am finished. But recently somebody told me that when I am building I shouldn't bother putting any Kingspan in the cavity. Instead I should finish all blockwork and then have it pumped full of insulation. I was told that if the Kingspan insulation gets wet or damp during the build, that it loses some of it's insulating properties. Is this true?

Also could anybody recommend the best insulation to use. thanks

In order for you to have an A rated dwelling, you need to look at a lot more than just insulation. To be honest, you will have to comply with 2008 regulations and there is NO way of knowing of you are going to comply without first doing the DEAP calculations off the plans with your proposed specifications.

You must know the minimum requirements before you start, or it could end up costing you a fortune, after completion, to comply with the regulations...

themullet

I am aware of this. At the moment I am looking at several different elements, trying to assess the best material for each. I know it is going to be more expensive, but I am hoping that it will pay back in the long run.

sydthebeat

but have you had a DEAP assessment done to assertain exactly what level of u values are required, what level of heating and control, ventilations?

themullet

No I haven't. Do I need to get a professional to do this or can I use the documentation & software on the SEI website?

sydthebeat

themullet wrote: »

No I haven't. Do I need to get a professional to do this or can I use the documentation & software on the SEI website?

The software and the manual is available on the SEI website.... its a very intensive manual so if you have the time, go for it... otherwise id advise engaging a professional. I would recommend and architect or architectural technician who is SEI registered. This professional should have the ability to:
1. use the DEAP software
2. have the ability to manipulate the data to ensure compliance
3. have enough construction knowledge to understand what materials work well together to reach the level required, and also how best to use your budget to achieve the levels required.
4. advise on how to meet minimum regulations
5. advise on how to upgrade the specification to a rating as required ie A3

(to be honest, 2008 regs levels are high, it does not take much to get a 2008 reg compliant house to an A3 level.)

In an ideal situation this professional should also be the preson you engage to sign off compliance with building regs and planning permission at the end of teh build. They should be SEI registered in order to furnish you with a final BER certificate on completion.

My point about this is... if you do not have this specific assessment done on your plans and specifications before you even start pricing up materials, then you do not know whether you are building in compliance with regulations or not.

d'Oracle

themullet wrote: »

Hi There,

I was just wondering if any one might have any opinions on this. At the moment I am planning to build my own house and I am hoping to have an A Rated home by the time I am finished. But recently somebody told me that when I am building I shouldn't bother putting any Kingspan in the cavity. Instead I should finish all blockwork and then have it pumped full of insulation. I was told that if the Kingspan insulation gets wet or damp during the build, that it loses some of it's insulating properties. Is this true?

Also could anybody recommend the best insulation to use. thanks

Chances are "somebody" hasn't a clue what they are talking about.
The vast majority of somebodies don't. Better off speaking to an architect or engineer

This is partially true but there are countless thousands of houses with kingspan/xtratherm insulation in the walls which did not have the material get wet during construction. This is not a good reason to decide against it.

Its a reason to take care that the material doesn't get wet.

topcatcbr

I think the reason that fullfill insulation gets any good recomendations is due to the ease of instalation and the idea that you are using "more" insulation. The truth is that some insulations perform better than others and 100mm thickness of Fullfill pumped "polystyrene based" is roughly equal to 65mm of Kingspan "polyurethane based" The condition and instalation of any insulation will effect its performance. My opinion would be that Fullfill pumped insulation is a good option for a retrofit and that cavityboard or external insulation or a combination of cavity and internal lineing boards is the better option for newbuilds. Be carefull to avoid thermalbridging and interstatial condensation.

Professionals (most) are employed because they know about these things and are versed in these issues. There are many ways to get things wrong and what might be suitable for one set of conditions will not be suitable for another.

Also the way the new regulations are written it is not a matter of complying with min u-values and the job is done. Often to comply with new regulations these min u-value standards have to be exceeded greatly.

JuniorB

The software and the manual is available on the SEI website.... its a very intensive manual so if you have the time, go for it... otherwise id advise engaging a professional. I would recommend and architect or architectural technician who is SEI registered. This professional should have the ability to:
1. use the DEAP software
2. have the ability to manipulate the data to ensure compliance
3. have enough construction knowledge to understand what materials work well together to reach the level required, and also how best to use your budget to achieve the levels required.
4. advise on how to meet minimum regulations
5. advise on how to upgrade the specification to a rating as required ie A3

I have got a quote as per above from a so called energy assesor
Comes in at over a grand incl VAT.

My architectural technician recommended that I have this done. To be frank I will be telling him that this is his job and what he's paid for. It's up to him to ensure that the house is built to the current regs.

BTW I'm not bothered what rating I get - I intend to live in my lovely new house for a very long time.
The house will be very well insulated, air tight, HRV, condenser boiler, solar, enclosed stove etc and if this is not good enough for an A3 rating then so be it....

I love the line....
have the ability to manipulate the data to ensure compliance
Says it all really..

sydthebeat

JuniorB wrote: »

The software and the manual is available on the SEI website.... its a very intensive manual so if you have the time, go for it... otherwise id advise engaging a professional. I would recommend and architect or architectural technician who is SEI registered. This professional should have the ability to:
1. use the DEAP software
2. have the ability to manipulate the data to ensure compliance
3. have enough construction knowledge to understand what materials work well together to reach the level required, and also how best to use your budget to achieve the levels required.
4. advise on how to meet minimum regulations
5. advise on how to upgrade the specification to a rating as required ie A3

1. I have got a quote as per above from a so called energy assesor
Comes in at over a grand incl VAT.

My architectural technician recommended that I have this done.
2.To be frank I will be telling him that this is his job and what he's paid for. It's up to him to ensure that the house is built to the current regs.

BTW I'm not bothered what rating I get - I intend to live in my lovely new house for a very long time.
The house will be very well insulated, air tight, HRV, condenser boiler, solar, enclosed stove etc and if this is not good enough for an A3 rating then so be it....

3. I love the line....
have the ability to manipulate the data to ensure compliance
Says it all really. .

1. i hope you havent taken him up on this. That quote is ridiculously expensive if he is only taking your plans and inputting data.

2. You are completely correct. If your technician is certifying the work its up to them to understand the requirement to check compliance.

3. Im not sure what you mean here. I mean 'manipulate' in a purely technical manner, not in any underhand fashion. Data manipulation is what is required to ensure compliance ie i could have 1.4 u value windows with an 85% efficient boiler... but if i had a 92% boiler i might be ok with 1.6 u value windows.. .etc etc...

JuniorB

No offence meant Syd with the last point.
From reading the other threads here it just appears that there is a lot of 'manoeuvre' room on inputting the data and the resulting rating that is produced.

What would you regard as a more realistic price for producing a provisonal BER cert and energy report with the target of an A3 rated house from the plans for a 3000 sq ft house? I can't see it taking more than a day so 400/500?? Copy and paste job as far as I can see.

I assume a provisional BER cert is not required anyway and I can just get the full one done for 200/300 when the house is completed? That's the plan for now anyway...

sinnerboy

JB - it could take a fair bit more than a day

But 400/500 would be a fair cost to input all data ( can take up 1 day ) and then advise on various spec options .... may be a little open ended - depends on how much you need "to explore" .

BUT - where you will get real value will be if you carefully select an assessor who is also an experienced construction professional .

A provisional cert is required when selling off plans .

In your case you would start off with " Cert option 1 " or whatever you would like to term it i.e. the BER assessment not published on SEI site .

After that comes the ( honest ala Syd description ) manipulations . You would see in calculated energy / CO2 terms what Spec A vs Spec B means in terms of BER - and B Regs compliance

sydthebeat

JuniorB wrote: »

No offence meant Syd with the last point.
From reading the other threads here it just appears that there is a lot of 'manoeuvre' room on inputting the data and the resulting rating that is produced.

What would you regard as a more realistic price for producing a provisonal BER cert and energy report with the target of an A3 rated house from the plans for a 3000 sq ft house? I can't see it taking more than a day so 400/500?? Copy and paste job as far as I can see.

I assume a provisional BER cert is not required anyway and I can just get the full one done for 200/300 when the house is completed? That's the plan for now anyway...

my answer to the 'quotation' question would be similar to SBs above... the 'terms of reference' as such need to be figured out...

now, the confusing bit.....

In order to certify compliance with building regulations a DEAP calculation must be done on the completed house. Also a BER certificate is legally required before occupation. As both of these are pretty mush the same thing, then it makes huge sense that it is the same person who certifys the build and also produces the cert, if not you are paying twice for the same service.

A provisional BER is not legally required before you start work (only as Sb says, if you want to sell off the plans)..... however, a DEAP assessment should be done before you start to ensure you are complying with B regs.

The perfect scenario is one where your designer is also your certifier and is also architecturally educated to specify construction and is also SEI registered to produce a BER certficate... .thats not too much to ask, is it??

JuniorB

Thanks for the replies lads and for making it all a bit clearer.

My designer will be doing detailed construction drawings for a tender process so I would assume that he has the technical knowledge to comply with building regs. He will be 'signing off' on the house too.
I think he is covering his behind by getting an energy assesor to do the donkey work ref BER ratings etc. and assumes that I want a good rating where in fact I just want an energy efficient house which is what I am paying him for i.e. to tell me what insulation etc is required.

where your designer is also your certifier and is also architecturally educated to specify construction and is also SEI registered to produce a BER certficate... .thats not too much to ask, is it??

My man is all of the above but said something about it being 'cheaper' to get someone to do BER that does it everyday !??:) If his buddy is cheaper I'd hate to see what he charges himself !!

No6

Junior you're possibly building at one of the worst times due to changes in regulations not everyone is up to speed, your house will have to be as syd mentioned earlier a B1 just to comply with the new regs so an A rated house isn't the same massive leap it has been up to now, whle your quote for 1000 from an enery assessor seems excessive check to see if it includes pressure testing (which you will need) as that is around 400 per test leaving around 600 (if it is included) for doing the assessment off the plans and then tweaking the specifications to achieve the result you want at a relatively affordable price.

Excluding the pressure test thats around what I would charge for providing that level of service, there is quite a lot of work involved expecially if you are going around pricing all sorts of insulations etc and want to see what each element you pick will do to your rating.

JuniorB

Thanks for your input No6
Pressure test not included I'm afraid !

As I said previously I'm not overly worried about the rating I get - I just want to make sure that it is done right the first time and that's what my Arch Tech is paid for.
I've no problem paying for professional advice but when that is overlapping with what I'm paying for already then I get slightly peeved.:mad:

Thanks again for everyones opinions....
BTW I mailed 3 Energy Assesors in total for quotes and only one replied. Recession... what recession ??

No6

JuniorB wrote: »

Thanks for your input No6
Pressure test not included I'm afraid !

As I said previously I'm not overly worried about the rating I get - I just want to make sure that it is done right the first time and that's what my Arch Tech is paid for.
I've no problem paying for professional advice but when that is overlapping with what I'm paying for already then I get slightly peeved.:mad:

Thanks again for everyones opinions....
BTW I mailed 3 Energy Assesors in total for quotes and only one replied. Recession... what recession ??

The whole energy rating thing is a new requirement and service and most people if they provide it are charging extra for it, I know I am. I do give people the option of getting someone else to do it as your own AT has but I generally end up doing it for my clients. All assessors have spent a lot of money on training and registration to be able to provide the service so its hard to see how you can expect it to be inculded for free by your AT. There's a number of AT/Assessors posting here i don't think any would offer it for free unless they were on a very high overall fee!!.

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

The whole energy rating thing is a new requirement and service and most people if they provide it are charging extra for it, I know I am. I do give people the option of getting someone else to do it as your own AT has but I generally end up doing it for my clients. All assessors have spent a lot of money on training and registration to be able to provide the service so its hard to see how you can expect it to be inculded for free by your AT. There's a number of AT/Assessors posting here i don't think any would offer it for free unless they were on a very high overall fee!!.

To be very honest, we use it as a sweetener if we are asked to quote for 'doing the inspections'.... we quote what we have been quoting over the last few years, and do the BER 'for free'....

I would not certify compliance myself, without doing a DEAP assessment anyway...

I would be very wary of accepting an external professionals DEAP calculation in order to certify compliance with Part L.... i wonder how that would stand up in court if challenged...?? Would a BER assessor have the required professional competance to offer an opinion on compliance with Part L??? ....and would their PI insurance cover this service??? ... i doubt it...

sinnerboy

The BER assessor alone cannot offer this opinion . On the other hand an AT can learn DEAP to demonstrate compliance and not register as an SEI Assessor .

If the client wants his BER cert - he should expect to pay for it .

To clarify , I hope , to the OP -

DEAP serves 2 functions

1. To demonstrate compliance with B Regs

2. To generate a BER cert from SEI - to obtain that additional burdens are placed ( SEI regisration , code of conduct , training to pass SEI exams etc ) - which must be paid for

.