Rip Off Solicitor

il gatto

Hi. Don't know if this is the appropriate forum. Mods can move as they see fit.

Basically, my fiance's father died in 2007 following a short illness. He left no will. His wife is alive and he has two children. Anyway, the estate went to probate and his widow left it in the hands of his solicitor. There's a small bungalow, a small farmyard, about 25 acres of land and around €60,000 in cash to be divided up.

Now that the whole thing has come near a close (there was no inter family arguments about anything), the solicitor wants over €6,000 plus VAT, putting the total at over €8,000. WTF? That cannot be a realistic figure for dealing with a fairly straightforward estate. The overall cash figure is not massive. Is it in any way reasonable to take almost a sixth of it?

It's not my place to contact the solicitor and the widow's son intends to contact them, but he may not be the most diplomatic in his approach. I just want to know if these figures sound in any way realistic so I can maybe help steer them in the right direction. I wouldn't want to incite them by telling them it's out of order, only to find out it's normal. Likewise, I wouldn't want a solicitor make a killing on a widow not up to speed in legal matters, only to find out later the solicitor had screwed them of almost a sixth of her dead husbands hard earned cash.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

maidhc

il gatto wrote: »

Hi. Don't know if this is the appropriate forum. Mods can move as they see fit.

Basically, my fiance's father died in 2007 following a short illness. He left no will. His wife is alive and he has two children. Anyway, the estate went to probate and his widow left it in the hands of his solicitor. There's a small bungalow, a small farmyard, about 25 acres of land and around €60,000 in cash to be divided up.
The overall cash figure is not massive. Is it in any way reasonable to take almost a sixth of it?

Small Bungalow: €200,000
25 acres: €300,000
Cash: €60,000
Total: €560,000

Considering there was no will, and the extra work this brings. 6,000 + VAT is a reasonable sum for an estate which can be conservatively valued at over half a million.

You were not ripped off.

Maximilian

fees for probate work are often around 1%

il gatto

maidhc wrote: »

Small Bungalow: €200,000
25 acres: €300,000
Cash: €60,000
Total: €560,000

Considering there was no will, and the extra work this brings. 6,000 + VAT is a reasonable sum for an estate which can be conservatively valued at over half a million.

You were not ripped off.

Bungalow: €150,000 max
25 acres: €200,000 max (poor land, no development scope and broken into 4 parcels).
Cash: €60,000
Total: €410,000 max

No will, but also no dispute. Pretty straightforward. Only met the client 2-3 times. At an hourly rate of €300 that equates to 20 hours (it's a few hundred more than 6k, so I've factored in probate charges, phonecalls, mail etc.). I would seriously doubt 20 hours were spent on the estate, as regardless of the lack of a will, the solicitor gave brief advice on dividing anything, and was then given brief instruction on what the family decided (unanimously). As I've said, I'm only looking for opinions however, and I'm not accusing the solicitor of anything untoward, but I was shocked at the cut he's taking from a widow with no income other than a small pension for a simple probate and transfer.
Thanks for the replies.

dats_right

il gatto wrote: »

No will, but also no dispute. Pretty straightforward. Only met the client 2-3 times. At an hourly rate of €300 that equates to 20 hours (it's a few hundred more than 6k, so I've factored in probate charges, phonecalls, mail etc.). I would seriously doubt 20 hours were spent on the estate, as regardless of the lack of a will, the solicitor gave brief advice on dividing anything, and was then given brief instruction on what the family decided (unanimously)

Firstly, the solicitor seems to have been on the ball as he wasn't unecessarily bringing the client into the office and seems to have kept such inconvenieinces to an absolute minimum, this is a good thing! Secondly, the solicitor should have provided particulars of his charges at the outset of dealing with these matters. You refer only to an hourly rate, but that is only one (not that commonly used in smaller firms) reason for a fee. The other grounds or basis for charges are:

• how complicated, urgent and important your matter or case is;
• how difficult or new the questions about your matter or case are;
• the skill, specialised knowledge and responsibility of your solicitor and
  staff involved;
• the number of hours your solicitor and staff spend on your matter or case;
• the number and importance of documents they prepare or examine;
• the value of any transaction that might be involved;
• whether your solicitor has to travel to deal with the matter; and
• the circumstances in which your solicitor deals with the matter or case.

il gatto wrote: »

The overall cash figure is not massive. Is it in any way reasonable to take almost a sixth of it?

The cash is only one aspect of the Estate. The actual value of the Estate, according to your figures, is €410,000. The actual value of the Estate can be very easily ascertained by viewing the Grant of Letters of Administration which will contain the figure as specified on the Inland Revenue Affidavit. But, quite correctly the fee is based on the value of the Estate not the bank account, which when you think about it makes sense: eg. Think of a situation where somebody dies with properties valued at €5,000,000 but only €10,000 in the bank, are you going to say that the solicitor took all his savings in fees?

In any event, there is more work for the solicitor involved in handling an intestacy, so that would also justifying an increase in fee.

il gatto wrote: »

but I was shocked at the cut he's taking from a widow with no income other than a small pension for a simple probate and transfer .

If money is such a concern the person could have administered the estate themselves without a solicitor! Anyway, of far more importance is that very important bit of information I've highlighted i.e. simple probate and transfer.. Firstly, it wasn't a simple probate it was an intestacy which is always more complicated and involves more work than a testacy (i.e. valid will in existence). Secondly, the transfer was carried out by the solicitor, this does not form part of the fee or work for administering an Estate.
The transfer of the property is seperate from the work involved in the Estate, therefore the solicitor is entitled to be paid seperately for this also!

In my opinion and I think objectively, for all the reasons specified, the fee charged by the solicitor is very reasonable in the circumstances.

il gatto wrote: »

As I've said, I'm only looking for opinions however, and I'm not accusing the solicitor of anything untoward

I think the title of the thread and the overall tone, especially such emotive language as:

il gatto wrote: »

to find out later the solicitor had screwed them of almost a sixth of her dead husbands hard earned cash

suggest otherwise! Anyway, OP I think you can rest assured that the widow concerned has got good value for money from her solicitor.

il gatto

As I said,if the fee was excessive, he would have screwed them. You're reading rather too much into a post on a forum. I don't get a penny either way so I'm not overly concerned. I was just trying to get some info to advise them whether to question the fees or not.

The case was not complicated or urgent. The solicitor is a normal country practice. There was no travel involved, no difficult situations, no belatedly received information (he was the man's solicitor all his life, and as such held most of his documents). The "circumstance" someone deals with a matter or case in? What kind of a basis is that for someone accruing fees? If every professional had that clause in their billing process, how complicated would things get?

Of course money matters to a widow of pension age, but she wouldn't know where to start. She did need a solicitor, but as nothing was contested, there was nothing to deal with that a solicitor doesn't see on a weekly basis, especially in a rural practice.

Of the reason's you gave for the fees, only the sixth has much bearing on this matter. I refered to an hourly rate only as a guide to what kind of level of work one would expect to be charged so much.

partyguinness

TBH thats sounds about right.

In fact I would go so far as to say it is quiet reasonable considering how much extra work goes into an intestacy. I have seen bills for double that amount for similar work.

Maximilian

Just to put things in perspective, were you to sell that land worth 350k, an auctioneer would likely charge at least 1%, say 3,500. That's 3,500 for putting an ad in the paper and showing the property to punters, taking calls. Yet people as far as I know don't complain half as much about their fees.

I can promise you, a probate matter takes at least double that effort and more expertise also.

partyguinness

The title to this thread should be changed.

If the OP was comparing prices with different solicitors then he would be entitled to say "Rip Off" or at the very least he had priced around.

The OP has not done any of this and thus it it grossly unfair and jumping the gun to say the very least.:mad:

The OP has shown nothing to suggest he has been ripped off.

Civpro

Similar thing happened to my uncle. But he found this.

http://www.lawsociety.ie/documents/pdfs/legalcharges08.pdf

Solicitor hadn't even given him a guesstimate in advance - when he went into him about not giving him information about his charges and threatening to make a complaint, the price was substantially reduced.

Although next time, make sure to get some sort of rough quote in advance. I an understand why solicitors might not be able to tell you exactly what it will cost (I assume they cant know what problems might come up until they actually do the work), its in everyone's interests to have at least some discussion of price up front.

partyguinness

Well the OP is entitled to shop around for an estimate like everything else.

He doesnt appear to have to have done this. But TBH that fee is quiet reasonable.