Cult Vs Sect - Scientology

homer911

I had to laugh when I saw this article on the BBC. I always thought of Scientology as a dangerous and expensive cult, so to call them a sect is like giving them a pat on the on back...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8066743.stm

Doctor DooM

Wrong forum?

robindch

I think a sect is just a cult which has money to spend on lawyers.

Seaneh

Wrong forum.

also, Sceintology is not a religion or a faith, it is a money making scam and a dangerous form of psycho therapy developed by a science fiction writter with known mental problems and unfounded hatred towards psychological practices.

It's not even a cult, it's just a business.

pts

Seaneh wrote: »

Wrong forum.

also, Sceintology is not a religion or a faith, it is a money making scam and a dangerous form of psycho therapy developed by a science fiction writter with known mental problems and unfounded hatred towards psychological practices.

It's not even a cult, it's just a business.

I'd be very curious to what (in your opinion) makes Scientology a "money making scam" and say Catholicism a religion.

Whisko

Seaneh wrote: »

Wrong forum.

also, Sceintology is not a religion or a faith, it is a money making scam and a dangerous form of psycho therapy developed by a science fiction writter with known mental problems and unfounded hatred towards psychological practices.

It's not even a cult, it's just a business.

Hows that any different from Christianity

Doctor DooM

Seaneh wrote: »

Wrong forum.

also, Sceintology is not a religion or a faith, it is a money making scam and a dangerous form of psycho therapy developed by a science fiction writter with known mental problems and unfounded hatred towards psychological practices.

It's not even a cult, it's just a business.

To be fair, it is not the people who create it who decide whether people hold it as a religion or hold faith in its tenets.

STILL wrong forum

Seaneh

pts wrote: »

I'd be very curious to what (in your opinion) makes Scientology a "money making scam" and say Catholicism a religion.

OOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhh so many things, I'll answer this later, have to view a house now! I'll be back if this isn't locked.

pts

Seaneh wrote: »

OOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhh so many things, I'll answer this later, have to view a house now! I'll be back if this isn't locked.

Excellent! Mods can we keep this one open for the moment? This could develop into a very interesting thread. Pleeeaaaaseee....

A Primal Nut

I'm not sure why Scientology comes under so much fire in comparison to other religions. People always demand respect for Abraham religions yet Scientology is viewed as evil. Its a belief system like any other, and in fairness most of its members were converted rather than born into it, which gives it more legitimicy than many other geography-based religions. If they are earning money then there are obviously people who really believe in it.

Besides, there is at least a good probability that aliens exist.:P

Seriously though, plenty of people have made money out of Christianity in the past. It doesn't make the whole religion bad, right?

PDN

The problem is that the words 'cult' and 'sect' have different meaning when used by the religious or by sociologists.

For the religious, a 'cult' is generally used to refer to a group which claims to be Christian but denies a cardinal doctrine of Christianity. For example, a group that denies the Trinity will often be callled a 'cult'. This use of the word presupposes that there is something 'true' about Christianity from which the cult has departed. This terminology, which is all to do with belief rather than behaviour, will obviously cut little ice with unbelievers who don't believe any of it is true.

The religious also use the word 'sect' to refer to a group that is newer than their own, and therefore, in many of their eyes, possesses less legitimacy. Thus Catholics may apply the word 'sect' to all Protestants, Anglicans may apply it to Baptists, Baptists may apply it to Pentecostals, and Pentecostals may apply it to whoever the newest religious kid on the block may be.

Sociologists used to use the word 'cult' to refer to groups with a high level of control over members' lives. In contrast to the religious use of the term, this definition was based on behaviour rather than on the legitimacy of the group's beliefs. However, it has generally replaced with the less value-laden term 'New Religious Movement' or NRM.

Sociologists generally use the word 'sect' to refer to a group that is exclusive and world-rejecting, rather than those with are inclusive and world-affirming. This has some overlap with the religious use of the term since older religious bodies tend to be more worldly and less strict than newer groups.

In popular usage, both terms are generally used in a pejorative way. In most people's minds a 'sect' denotes a group that is 'sectarian' (exclusive, intolerant and probably a breakaway from something more respectable) whereas a 'cult' is a group that is weird, brainwashes people, and quite likely has a stockpile of weapons in a compound somewhere.

homer911

I posted here because sect and cult are often terms used, righly or wrongly, in relation to Christians. Scientology is obviously not Christian, neither is it a religion in any way that Christians, Muslims, Seiks, Hindus etc would recognise

Interestingly they use pseudo-christian imagery on their website with their star/cross

pts

homer911 wrote: »

Interestingly they use pseudo-christian imagery on their website with their star/cross

It makes perfect sense though, throughout history new religions have incorporated ideas, iconography, rituals etc of earlier religions.

"Embrace, extend..." as Microsoft used to put it

Seaneh

PTs, again I don't have time to go into this, about to head out the door again, but do you actually understand what Scientology is or the organisational structure of the "church"?

It's really not, in any way what so ever, a religion.

Scientology is just dianetics with a science fiction story attached to it.

Dianetics is a very dangerous unlicenced psycho therapy which uses peoples mental weakness to put them in a possition where by someone else (or other peope) have power over them emotionally. This emotional power is then used by the power barers to persuade the victim ( I said it and I ment it!) to persue higher "levels" each "level" costing more than the last.

On top of that you have groups withing scoentology like the sea orgs where peoples entire lives are destoryed.

This artical gives a small insight into it.

http://gawker.com/5005948/celebrity-ex+scientologist-let-will-smith-know-that-his-****-was-****ing-recorded

And this film goes even further.
http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/jason-beghe-interview/

Jason Beghe was one of their poster boy celebrities btw.

Genghiz Cohen

The Anonymous related sites, Xenu.net and whyweprotest give insight in the more disturbing allegations.

pts

Seaneh wrote: »

PTs, again I don't have time to go into this, about to head out the door again, but do you actually understand what Scientology is or the organisational structure of the "church"?

Yes, I am actually very well read on the subject. In fact, I'm so well read on Scientology lingo that I know that my username (which is based on my name & nationality and wasn't chosen due to an anti-Scientology sentiment) can be particularly appropriate in this thread
Still looking forward to your explanation on the differences when you get back.

Galvasean

Seaneh wrote: »

Dianetics is a very dangerous unlicenced psycho therapy which uses peoples mental weakness to put them in a possition where by someone else (or other peope) have power over them emotionally. This emotional power is then used by the power barers to persuade the victim ( I said it and I ment it!) to persue higher "levels" each "level" costing more than the last.

One could argue that Christianity has emotional power over it's followers. Likewise if you replaced the levels of Scientology with heavan you'd have something like Christianity.

On top of that you have groups withing scoentology like the sea orgs where peoples entire lives are destoryed.

Like the Christian Brothers fiasco.

Now I'm not trying to have a go at Christianity here, but I am seeing a double standard. Pretty much every major religion has (or at least could be viewed as having) the very same flaws that Scientology recieves so much flak for.

wolfsbane

Galvasean wrote: »

One could argue that Christianity has emotional power over it's followers. Likewise if you replaced the levels of Scientology with heavan you'd have something like Christianity.



Like the Christian Brothers fiasco.

Now I'm not trying to have a go at Christianity here, but I am seeing a double standard. Pretty much every major religion has (or at least could be viewed as having) the very same flaws that Scientology recieves so much flak for.

Yes, I must say I have always classed Scientology in with religious cults. I'm open to persuasion that they are not religious at all - but it seems to me they believe in a revelation supposedly received by Hubbard, a revelation of ETs. Now that sounds classic religion to me. OK, they don't worship a god, but they do obey their leaders and believe in Hubbard's revelation.

hick

you want to see just how scary scientology is, do a google search for scientology orientation video (it's not far off the Hanso Darma orientation videos from Lost) it's about 25 mins long, it's essentially the preamble to you signing up, you will have been well vetted before you see this video.
Somebody managed to get through all the guff and then recoreded it on a mobile phone. Theres a 2 minute clip on youtube, but it's best to find the full version for full effect, don't know how old it is, but it's fairly recent it looks mid 90's.

Your brought around the various areas and meet directors of the foundations within the "church". they make a big deal about all the court cases that they say prove they are a religion, and the tax amnisty they get as a relogion, you get interviews from various members including a few starts, like kirstie alley and issac hayes. Your shown proof in the form of test cards where people have raise their IQ and happiness index and thus become more sucessful, then the same man discusses with the presentor how psychologists are evil mind warping frauds and they will try to attack scientology in order to defend their own failings.

the scariest part is at the end, where the guy looks straight down the camera and basically says you can choose not to become a scientologist but that would be "stupid" (actual words) you can choose not to live up to your full potential and journey to another plane of existance where you will live for the next trillion years or so, then the money shot, he stops and says, if you don't join you might as well dive off a bridge or blow your brains out, that's your choice!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean right u till then it was pretty harmless, nuts but harmless. I litterly fell off my seat. This show just how extremest these guys are,

Also worth watching is the BBC Panorama report this shows where they have stopped using the whole Xenu story as it just looks rediculous now, it was more suited to 1960's scifi.

I've done a fair bit of looking into this, largely because there a lot of heasay about it and frankly I wanted to be able to have an educated conversation if it came up rather than just saying they obvious lunatics!

pts

hick wrote: »

you want to see just how scary scientology is, do a google search for scientology orientation video (it's not far off the Hanso Darma orientation videos from Lost) it's about 25 mins long, it's essentially the preamble to you signing up, you will have been well vetted before you see this video.
Somebody managed to get through all the guff and then recoreded it on a mobile phone. Theres a 2 minute clip on youtube, but it's best to find the full version for full effect, don't know how old it is, but it's fairly recent it looks mid 90's.

Your brought around the various areas and meet directors of the foundations within the "church". they make a big deal about all the court cases that they say prove they are a religion, and the tax amnisty they get as a relogion, you get interviews from various members including a few starts, like kirstie alley and issac hayes. Your shown proof in the form of test cards where people have raise their IQ and happiness index and thus become more sucessful, then the same man discusses with the presentor how psychologists are evil mind warping frauds and they will try to attack scientology in order to defend their own failings.

the scariest part is at the end, where the guy looks straight down the camera and basically says you can choose not to become a scientologist but that would be "stupid" (actual words) you can choose not to live up to your full potential and journey to another plane of existance where you will live for the next trillion years or so, then the money shot, he stops and says, if you don't join you might as well dive off a bridge or blow your brains out, that's your choice!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean right u till then it was pretty harmless, nuts but harmless. I litterly fell off my seat. This show just how extremest these guys are,

Also worth watching is the BBC Panorama report this shows where they have stopped using the whole Xenu story as it just looks rediculous now, it was more suited to 1960's scifi.

I've done a fair bit of looking into this, largely because there a lot of heasay about it and frankly I wanted to be able to have an educated conversation if it came up rather than just saying they obvious lunatics!

I've seen the orientation video and the Panorama video, and the Jason Beghe video and many others. Scientology still seems like a more extreme (in some ways any way) version of many mainstream religions, but the core principles are very similar. Take for example the quote from the orientation video you mentioned in your post, namely:

spooky scilon wrote:

If you leave this room after seeing this film and walk out and never mention Scientology again, you are perfectly free to do so. It would be stupid, but you can do it. You can also dive off a bridge or blow your brains out. That is your choice.

But if you don’t walk out that way, if you continue with Scientology, we will be very happy with you, and you will be very happy with you.

Is that really worse than something you might hear from a Christian preacher, for example something like:
"You can ignore the word of God, leave this church and never return. You can continue living your life of sin, revelling in earthly pleasures, it would stupid, but God has given you a choice.

However if you believe in God you will be saved and share eternity with him".

EDIT:
A summary of how I feel about Scientology:

darjeeling wrote: »

Ah, naughty, upstart little scientology - the conjurer who won't stop showing everyone how the trick is done. :pac:

Seaneh

the main reason scioentology shouldn't be classed as a religion is because ex-members of the religion including orained ministers have come out and said they laughed about how they managed to protray it as a religion to get around the licencing laws they would have needed to use dianetics as it was intended.

They only "became" a religion becuase they were under leagle pressure to licence dianetics and they knew they never could as it was a sham!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkpnYR_Sz9Y

Within Scientology the ONLY way you can achive "levels" or "advance" is to buy your way up, and even this can only be done after extensive "auditing", where during each audit they will pry even more out of you to make you feel weak and in need of their help to become "clear".
Even these individual auditing sessions cost from $450-$550 per hour, depending on how many hours you buy.
the e-meter used costs less than $15 a unit to produce but is sold for over $1700 + expenses!


In Christianity we are urged, not required, to give the tenth, but only with a giving heart and only to give what we can afford. If you don't want to give, you don't have to, your salvation isn't dependant on it, the only thing you need in Christianity to achive eternal life is faith. In sceintology the only way you can achive "Clear" or the required "levels" to achive "clear" is to spend hundreds if not millions of dollars and allow yourself to give your every emotional flaw or weakness to a superior so that they can use it to keep sway over you and keep you mentally weak.

Christianity is faith.

Scientology is about money.

And that's only the start of the differences.



Scientology != religion.
Scientology = Dianetics = Un-Licenced Psycho therapy used to take peoples money = Scam.

They use methods that were used by people like the heavens gate group to recuit members and brain wash them.

They

dvpower

Seaneh wrote: »

It's really not, in any way what so ever, a religion.

Scientology does describe itself as a religion, is considered as a religion (at least for tax purposes) in a good number of countries. I think that most people would casually regard scientology as a religion.

This doesn't make it so, but dictionary definitions for religion tend to be vague enough, so I wouldn't be so certain in your rejection of it (as a religion).

Seaneh

dvpower wrote: »

Scientology does describe itself as a religion, is considered as a religion (at least for tax purposes) in a good number of countries. I think that most people would casually regard scientology as a religion.

This doesn't make it so, but dictionary definitions for religion tend to be vague enough, so I wouldn't be so certain in your rejection of it (as a religion).

Did you even read my last post?

AQERWFHhfg.DBP CXNHF[PAS <--- mashing my keyboard randomly is my reaction to your post because for whatever I post you'll just say that again.

wolfsbane

Seaneh wrote: »

the main reason scioentology shouldn't be classed as a religion is because ex-members of the religion including orained ministers have come out and said they laughed about how they managed to protray it as a religion to get around the licencing laws they would have needed to use dianetics as it was intended.

They only "became" a religion becuase they were under leagle pressure to licence dianetics and they knew they never could as it was a sham!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkpnYR_Sz9Y

Within Scientology the ONLY way you can achive "levels" or "advance" is to buy your way up, and even this can only be done after extensive "auditing", where during each audit they will pry even more out of you to make you feel weak and in need of their help to become "clear".
Even these individual auditing sessions cost from $450-$550 per hour, depending on how many hours you buy.
the e-meter used costs less than $15 a unit to produce but is sold for over $1700 + expenses!


In Christianity we are urged, not required, to give the tenth, but only with a giving heart and only to give what we can afford. If you don't want to give, you don't have to, your salvation isn't dependant on it, the only thing you need in Christianity to achive eternal life is faith. In sceintology the only way you can achive "Clear" or the required "levels" to achive "clear" is to spend hundreds if not millions of dollars and allow yourself to give your every emotional flaw or weakness to a superior so that they can use it to keep sway over you and keep you mentally weak.

Christianity is faith.

Scientology is about money.

And that's only the start of the differences.



Scientology != religion.
Scientology = Dianetics = Un-Licenced Psycho therapy used to take peoples money = Scam.

They use methods that were used by people like the heavens gate group to recuit members and brain wash them.

They

Yes, I see how its leaders cynically manipulate the gullible, and why the not-so-gullible remain in. A bit like the Freemasons. Money & power - even if it means a bit of investment is needed.

But are you saying they don't have a 'revealed truth', that the alien stuff is not part of their foundational beliefs?

Seaneh

The xenu story came after dianetics and "Scientology" was invented to get around the laws that cover practacing in the psycho therapy feild in the United States.

wolfsbane

Seaneh wrote: »

The xenu story came after dianetics and "Scientology" was invented to get around the laws that cover practacing in the psycho therapy feild in the United States.

If the membership knows this, then Scientology is not a religion. Thanks.

dvpower

Seaneh wrote: »

Did you even read my last post?

AQERWFHhfg.DBP CXNHF[PAS <--- mashing my keyboard randomly is my reaction to your post because for whatever I post you'll just say that again.

I did. It made as much sense as this one.

Mickeroo

Seaneh wrote: »

Did you even read my last post?

AQERWFHhfg.DBP CXNHF[PAS <--- mashing my keyboard randomly is my reaction to your post because for whatever I post you'll just say that again.

I think dvpower acknowledged what you said to be fair. Your points are all valid.

The point he's trying to make is that the average joe would think of scientology as a religion, which is true. It's fair to say that it's referred to as a religion in the media also.

pts

Apologies for the delay in replying.
To start off, I think we both feel the same way about Scientology. We're probably both considered SPs and grunts in the Marcab Confederacy (btw did you get your cheque from the psychs this month, mine bounced, must be a problem in HR) however we draw different conclusions.

In the video you linked they talk about how they masqueraded as a religion for tax reasons, and to be allowed to practice "psychiatry" without a license. However if you ask most current parishioners members they would probably not believe that. So in 50 years or so it's religious status has changed from an inside joke that everyone knew, to something that most members wouldn't believe if you told them (you'd probably be labelled a "religious bigot", they like that word)

I do believe that Scientology was made up by a mad man, who eventually came to believe what he made up. However using the same reasoning I don't think it's so impossible that 2000 years ago the "founders" of, say Christianity knew that some things they said weren't as extraordinary as they claimed, but has now become gospel.

wolfsbane

pts wrote: »

Apologies for the delay in replying.
To start off, I think we both feel the same way about Scientology. We're probably both considered SPs and grunts in the Marcab Confederacy (btw did you get your cheque from the psychs this month, mine bounced, must be a problem in HR) however we draw different conclusions.

In the video you linked they talk about how they masqueraded as a religion for tax reasons, and to be allowed to practice "psychiatry" without a license. However if you ask most current parishioners members they would probably not believe that. So in 50 years or so it's religious status has changed from an inside joke that everyone knew, to something that most members wouldn't believe if you told them (you'd probably be labelled a "religious bigot", they like that word)

I do believe that Scientology was made up by a mad man, who eventually came to believe what he made up. However using the same reasoning I don't think it's so impossible that 2000 years ago the "founders" of, say Christianity knew that some things they said weren't as extraordinary as they claimed, but has now become gospel.

Only they were sooo crazy that they refused to abandon their 'in-joke' even when it cost them all the possessed, their liberty and even their lives.

One would nearly think they really believed it.

MatthewVII

Seaneh wrote: »

The xenu story came after dianetics and "Scientology" was invented to get around the laws that cover practacing in the psycho therapy feild in the United States.

how can we say for sure that it wasn't just revealed to the Great Prophet L. Ron Hubbard after he had already revealed the Mystery of Dianetics to the lay people?

Seaneh

MatthewVII wrote: »

how can we say for sure that it wasn't just revealed to the Great Prophet L. Ron Hubbard after he had already revealed the Mystery of Dianetics to the lay people?

Because ex-members has said as much, not just ex-members, ex-ministers!

Nerin

Random fact tidbit:6 leaders in scientology in france are on trial for organised fraud at the moment.

Genghiz Cohen

Nerin wrote: »

Random fact tidbit:6 leaders in scientology in france are on trial for organised fraud at the moment.

Oh Snap! Nice.

Zombrex

Seaneh wrote: »

a very dangerous unlicenced psycho therapy which uses peoples mental weakness to put them in a possition where by someone else (or other peope) have power over them emotionally. This emotional power is then used by the power barers to persuade the victim ( I said it and I ment it!) to persue higher "levels" each "level" costing more than the last.

Scientology is just like any other religion. It attempts to convince the person that there is something wrong with them and then offers Scientology as a way to help solve these problems. The person then joins the religion and teaches to others that Scientology has helped them.

Christianity does exactly the same thing, just Christians believe that the problems with humanity Christianity says are real are actually real and that the solutions Christianity say are real are actually real.

From the position of an atheist watching both from the outside they are just the same.

Bduffman

I would have thought that the difference between a cult, a sect and a religion is time.

homer911

The atheists have arrived, probably time to close this thread..

Bduffman

homer911 wrote: »

The atheists have arrived, probably time to close this thread..

Yes - lock up your babies we're feeling hungry.:D

dvpower

homer911 wrote: »

The atheists have arrived, probably time to close this thread..

Drat! Rumbled!