State faces bankruptcy over Army stress claims

RATM

Interesting article here. Anyone know how widespread these claims are likely to be? Because if the average payout is €300k and there were over 50,000 serving as peacekeepers then the finances of this country, if not already in a mess, truly will be if it goes ahead. My calculation puts the bill at a potential €1.5 trillion, a sum simply unheard of even in these recessionary times.

Furthermore you'd have to ask what it will mean for our peacekeeping duties in the future; surely the Department would be reluctant to send any troops into conflict zones if they thought it was going to result in a rash of claims further down the road....



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-faces-bankruptcy-over-army-stress-claims-1749275.html

Full Article:

A FLOOD of claims for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) by soldiers who took part in Ireland's foreign peace-keeping missions could bankrupt the State.

Lawyers for the Department of Defence are drawing up a defence for a case in which a former soldier was awarded €300,000 after the High Court found the Army was negligent in not providing him with counselling and psychiatric assistance after he served a six-month tour in Lebanon in 1986-1987.

An estimated 50,000 serving and retired Irish military personnel have served in Lebanon and elsewhere on UN peace-keeping missions and an appeal to be heard later this year will decide whether the state is liable for their care when they returned.

Military sources said that lawyers were "lining up" to launch a landslide of PTSD cases if the appeal against the award fails. They fear the State will face a bill running into billions of euros if the appeal fails. In that event, the Government would almost certainly have no option but to rule out service in potentially dangerous peace-keeping missions. That, in turn, would bring into question the whole raison d'etre of the Forces.

The last landslide of compensation claims by members of the Defence Forces over hearing damage cost the State almost €300m.

At present, there are believed to be 50 cases pending in the High Court in which claims for compensation for alleged PTSD are being made. The Army, however, understands there is a substantial number in the pipeline pending the outcome of the appeal, which is expected in September.

The last big tranche of cases for hearing loss made fortunes for lawyers.

Patrick V Boland & Sons of Kildare topped the list with costs of €16,244,130 from 1614 cases, according to figures from the department. McMahon O'Brien Downes of Limerick made €11,084,713 with 1442 cases; Byrne Carolan Cunningham of Athlone made €7,711,064; O'Donovan Solicitors of Capel Street, Dublin made €3,835,636; Murphy English & Co of Cork make €3,741,358; Maxwell Mooney & Co of Kildare made €3,554,713; Kent Carty of Dublin made €2,791,812; Ferrys of Dublin made €2,226,799; Declan Carroll & Company of Cork made €2,200,015; and Eamon Murray & Co, also of Cork, made €1,766,899. Most of the cases -- but not all of them -- involved alleged hearing loss.

The official line from the Department on the issue is: "While members of the Permanent Defence Forces have the potential to be exposed to difficult events in the course of their service, the Department -- with the Defence Forces -- tracks best international practice in approaching mental health issues. Accordingly, we have comprehensive measures in place which can be availed of by members of the PDF."

Until the December judgement on a PTSD case, the "quantum" for such awards was around €20,000 to €30,000. When it jumped to €300,000, the expectation of major payments sparked major interest in taking compensation cases.

In the €300,000 payment, the court heard that the soldier had returned a "broken man" after serving in the south of Lebanon. That year there had been a great deal of fighting between Israel and Islamic groups in the area, and also between the Lebanese themselves.

The Irish Battalion served through much worse periods, including 1980, when there was direct fighting with the Israeli-backed South Lebanon Army leading to deaths on both sides.

They also served through the massive bombardments in the area by the Israeli Defence Forces in 1993, called Operation Grapes of Wrath by the Israelis, and 1996's Operation Accountability.

mikemac

Would there not be a statute of limitations in place?

For example if a soldier returns from a tour then must lodge any claim within two years

My sympathies to the returning soldier who suffered trauma in 1886-87. But should the state be allowing claims for something that happened decades ago?

arybvtcw0eolkf

I was found to be suffering from PTSD in 1989.

Was I offered councilling, no - I was offered a course of sleeping pills.

Would I sue - NO.

Do I think soldiers should sue?.. I'm undecided. It can be a very debilitating illness, there is not a chance in hell am I going into my own personal details, but it linger's to this day. However I'm strong enough to look after myself, however some people are not equipt with those handling mechanisms - I don't walk in their shoe's so I won't sit in judgement over them either.

.

arybvtcw0eolkf

mikemac wrote: »

My sympathies to the returning soldier who suffered trauma in 1886-87. But should the state be allowing claims for something that happened decades ago?

If the state disallow's this it has to stop the compensation payouts to the victims of abuse suffered in the states institutues (religious orders).

If a child is injured its parents or guardians can take out a case for compensation until the childs 16th birthday, after which the statue of limitations kicks in and the youngster has a further two years to take a case him/her self (this age could be 18yrs, I'm not entirely sure).

.

ex_infantry man

it comes with the job ya hardly expect to be in a war torn country and not to come across or experience anything thats gonna cause some sort of distress, back then it was more than likely the case of your a man take the stress ya don,t need counselling just different times!!!!

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Another great day for the Defence Forces. Fair enough, if someone genuinely needs the appropriate councelling, they should get it. But I have a funny feeling there will be a huge bandwagon on this one!!!!

Hard Larry

Meh its just sensationalist jouralism TBH

The Defence Forces have been on top of this for the last decade or so.

Part of the Re-Pat medical is PTSD Councilling, even if you don't do the councilling its still listed in the questions that you sign to say you feel fine and you have no snags.
After the riots in Kosovo in 2004 a Stress Debrief team was sent over and was available to those who wanted it.
FFS even after the disturbances when George Bush flew into Shannon a bunch of lads involved were stress debriefed.

There are genuine cases out there and I'd love to see them have their day, unfortunately there are also those who'll never have their day who felt it got too much for them and took the hard/easy way out...RIP

pmg58

Hard Larry wrote: »

FFS even after the disturbances when George Bush flew into Shannon a bunch of lads involved were stress debriefed.

Are you serious or taking the piss?

arybvtcw0eolkf

pmg58 wrote: »

Are you serious or taking the piss?

No, he's right.

The Defence Forces are on top of these things very quickly.

Two incidents come to mind, involving me personally.

Whilst on duty (normal working hours) I came accross as post office robbery in progress. I held onto the robber until AGS arrived, got a check up in St.Bricins Hospital (I had blood from two people on me) and sent home.

Both in bks and when I got home I was given the chance to talk to a councillor.

Second time, I gave CPR to a heart attack victim in town. On reporting back to bks I was detailed to report to St.Bricins and went through more or less the same procedure again.

Hard Larry

During those few days (of the George Bush visit) a group of....the only way I can describe them is New Age Hippies.. got up close and personal with a Public Order Platoon. No batons were raised in anger it all passed off peacefully, the hippie types actually thought the Paddies were US Marines cause of the Mowags.

1 was even able to scrawl the word Peace in chalk on the side of a Mowag, but it was all good natured no one was in the humour for a row and luckily no one in charge paniced.

However later on that day those personnel in the Public Order Platoon were carted off side and given a Stress Debrief by the Care-bears and had to sign off a disclaimer.

The gas thing is the vast majority of those troops were only back from Kosovo and had been in the Paddys Day riots of 2004 in Kosovo.

Thats a fact.

iceage

Jesus man, your either Jinxed or was born under a lucky star.....let me guess, Harai Goshi?



Posted to Maki, not Hard Larry. Although the thoughts of sweeping hippies.........:P

mikemac

Hard Larry wrote: »

....been in the Paddys Day riots of 2004.

What riots? I don't remember those?

And why would the army be deployed in a riot?

iceage

Mayday.

Hard Larry

mikemac wrote: »

What riots? I don't remember those?

And why would the army be deployed in a riot?

My bad sorry.

The riots in Kosovo 2004

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM1Vbs5L0t4

arybvtcw0eolkf

iceage wrote: »

....let me guess, Harai Goshi?

Ground 'n Pound!..

:cool:

iceage

Samson Thankful Bonbon wrote: »

Ground 'n Pound!..

:cool:

Explains the blood, good drills mate...."pint for the scraper";)

pmg58

Hard Larry wrote: »

the hippie types actually thought the Paddies were US Marines cause of the Mowags.

However later on that day those personnel in the Public Order Platoon were carted off side and given a Stress Debrief by the Care-bears and had to sign off a disclaimer.

Worrying to see the hippies are keeping up with their AFV recognition!

The stress debrief thing makes sense now that its in context, I really shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

Fair play Makikomi!

Boston

ex_infantry man wrote: »

it comes with the job ya hardly expect to be in a war torn country and not to come across or experience anything thats gonna cause some sort of distress, back then it was more than likely the case of your a man take the stress ya don,t need counselling just different times!!!!

It's also part of the Job to die of heat exhaustion, basic steps should still be taken to prevent it. Mental problems are no different.

cushtac

pmg58 wrote: »

Worrying to see the hippies are keeping up with their AFV recognition!

They more than likely thought the army didn't have the like of Mowags, therefore they had to be American.

pmg58

Eh sorry I wasn't actually serious! But thanks. Should have used this: :pac:

ex_infantry man

Boston wrote: »

It's also part of the Job to get die of heat exhaustion, basic steps should still be taken to prevent it. Mental problems are no different.

fair point!!!!i now work as a sales rep and am commonly arguing with certain customers over a packet of sausages maybe kerry foods should do this sort of debrief so i don,t go home stressed

Boston

ex_infantry man wrote: »

fair point!!!!i now work as a sales rep and am commonly arguing with certain customers over a packet of sausages maybe kerry foods should do this sort of debrief so i don,t go home stressed

You can quit your Job any time you feel it's too much for you. Can someone in Chad do the same? As a student, I had access to state paid councillor any time (working hours of course) if I wanted. If it can be provided for students then why not people who are serving their country?

You're a sales rep, its well excepted that Irish roads are dangerous would you feel happy if you're company provided you with a faulty car and chalked it up to "you accept a risk every time you cross hit the m50".

Irish building sites used to be among the most dangerous in the europe. I remember reading a stat back around 2000 which stated that the construction industry had more work related deaths then all the other industries in Ireland. It was simply accepted that if you worked on bill sites there was a higher risk of injury and death and that it was "part of the job". This however was just an excuse for lax safty procedures and in recents years things have taken a complete U-turn in that regard.