The point of Religion, all Religions IMO...

mewmoo

Okay, I'll try and make another thread, hopefully this won't disturb the waters as much as the last one.

Now on to the point...

For those of you who have never lost a loved one, i.e. blood relative such as father, mother, brother, sister. You may not be fully getting the point or purpose of Religion (not talking about organisation here I'm talking about the convention of God/gods or souls or heaven/hell...etc).
The whole purpose isn't about you, it has nothing to do with you! It is about those around you. The ones you love.

If you have ever sat next to you father who was crying for his life and family that he was moments from leaving behind forever, you will see exactly what I'm about to say. Religions, the heavens, the souls are about saying the ones you love deserve more than this short fragile existence.

To deny anyone that, well I guess you see what I'm saying...

What do others in this forum think about this?

mcgarnicle

mewmoo wrote: »

Okay, I'll try and make another thread, hopefully this won't disturb the waters as much as the last one.

Now on to the point...

For those of you who have never lost a loved one, i.e. blood relative such as father, mother, brother, sister. You may not be fully getting the point or purpose of Religion (not talking about organisation here I'm talking about the convention of God/gods or souls or heaven/hell...etc).
The whole purpose isn't about you, it has nothing to do with you! It is about those around you. The ones you love.

If you have ever sat next to you father who was crying for his life and family that he was moments from leaving behind forever, you will see exactly what I'm about to say. Religions, the heavens, the souls are about saying the ones you love deserve more than this short fragile existence.

To deny anyone that, well I guess you see what I'm saying...

What do others in this forum think about this?

That's a bit silly. I didn't like it when I lost 20 euro out of my pocket last week... does that mean that I can just believe that that money isn't actually gone but is in some imaginary bank where I can never get at it or use it cos you know, that makes me feel better about the fact that my 20 euro is gone.

Dinner

Breaking News: Religion fed by emotional vulnerability.

easyeason3

mewmoo wrote: »

Okay, I'll try and make another thread, hopefully this won't disturb the waters as much as the last one.

Now on to the point...

For those of you who have never lost a loved one, i.e. blood relative such as father, mother, brother, sister. You may not be fully getting the point or purpose of Religion (not talking about organisation here I'm talking about the convention of God/gods or souls or heaven/hell...etc).
The whole purpose isn't about you, it has nothing to do with you! It is about those around you. The ones you love.

If you have ever sat next to you father who was crying for his life and family that he was moments from leaving behind forever, you will see exactly what I'm about to say. Religions, the heavens, the souls are about saying the ones you love deserve more than this short fragile existence.

To deny anyone that, well I guess you see what I'm saying...

What do others in this forum think about this?

If they are gone forever then how can there be God, Gods, etc?
I was brought up as a Catholic but I don't go to mass. The reason being is that I don't really believe in it or any other religion for that matter. However I have great respect for anyone who is religious & respect their beliefs.

I believe in the ability of myself & others before I believe in praying. If my father is sick I believe in his ability to get better because of the person he is, not because of prayer. If I am sick I believe in my ability to get better rather than resorting to prayer.

A lot of people find great comfort through prayer & fair play to them if that is what helps them.

mewmoo

Dinner wrote: »

Breaking News: Religion fed by emotional vulnerability.

Hmm, that's exactly it...

Right I need to take a step back, I had not really thought out what or why I was saying anything I've said till now... just fingers on a keyboard and s*** coming out... but your posts has brought out an interesting train of thought.

Why Atheism?

Okay get this, Religion like I was saying is about the other person, it's about the community to be more precise. Religions work by exploiting, I don't want to use that word but it is appropriate, weakness in human character. At the end of the day humans are frail, weak, pity beings scrabbling to make some sort of coherence out of this mess we call life.

When Religion wants to expand its community it offers a person what they need/want, hope love... What does Atheism offer?

I think a good analogy would be, Atheism is to a person, what the "Knowledge Economy" is to the average Joe soap with less than adequate education... Is Atheism just for those in the know, the ones who can abstract themselves from the dredge of society, the higher echelons?

How does the Atheist ideal sustain itself. You reaction to a person who clearly has some very obvious "emotional vulnerability" as you put it, is to s*** on them... surely it would be better for promotion of you community to be able to offer hope? Failing that at least be able to get into the mind of the person and help them see what it is they are missing in the whole messed up situation?

mewmoo

easyeason3 wrote: »

If they are gone forever then how can there be God, Gods, etc?

Right that doesn't make any kind of sense... you are taking a word out context... forever in the eyes of a person who would be living for a lot longer.

easyeason3 wrote: »

I believe in the ability of myself & others before I believe in praying. If my father is sick I believe in his ability to get better because of the person he is, not because of prayer. If I am sick I believe in my ability to get better rather than resorting to prayer.

Right, wow, you must get people in here a lot that sounds quite mechanical... I wasn't about to nor did I mention prayer anywhere... I was talking about the concept, I was talking about human hope.


This is my dilemma here, I am very much on the fence... this whole losing people close to you sort of f***s up your head some what, takes you out of your comfort zone.

Just as my post before this goes, where does hope come from with an Atheism concept, where is the social aspect of this ideal.. this way of life.

All I can see is the likes of Richard Dawkins acting the fag***t, running around tell religious people "Look you're so stupid, do you believe in a spaghetti monster!".

I have nothing in common with that man, but I do have something in common with the like of a priest, rabbi or a shaman....etc because they believe in people and believe in community. Their is judgment but nothing as harsh or brutal that the atheists like to hand out...

IMO

mcgarnicle

mewmoo wrote: »

Right that doesn't make any kind of sense... you are taking a word out context... forever in the eyes of a person who would be living for a lot longer.



Right, wow, you must get people in here a lot that sounds quite mechanical... I wasn't about to nor did I mention prayer anywhere... I was talking about the concept, I was talking about human hope.


This is my dilemma here, I am very much on the fence... this whole losing people close to you sort of f***s up your head some what, takes you out of your comfort zone.

Just as my post before this goes, where does hope come from with an Atheism concept, where is the social aspect of this ideal.. this way of life.

All I can see is the likes of Richard Dawkins acting the fag***t, running around tell religious people "Look you're so stupid, do you believe in a spaghetti monster!".

I have nothing in common with that man, but I do have something in common with the like of a priest, rabbi or a shaman....etc because they believe in people and believe in community. Their is judgment but nothing as harsh or brutal that the atheists like to hand out...

IMO

What has any of that got to do with religion or being atheist? It sounds like your reasons are fairly fickle.

There is a great quote from Seinfeld, George is considering switching religion and when confronted on it by Jerry he says something like "sure, what do I care... it's not like changing toothpaste". I think you are not engaging with the issue at all in your own head and are being dishonest with yourself if these are your genuine concerns. You may not like the fact that people die but that's not a reason to be religious. A reason to be religious is that you believe in the religion, otherwise you are a hypocrite. Do you think atheists enjoy losing loved ones? Of course not, you just have to deal with it though and if you want to lie to yourself to make yourself feel better then fair enough, you're still an atheist just a person of little substance.

It seems to me that you are basing whether or not you are an atheist on what social and altruistic aspirations atheists have as a group. The answer is none. There is no "Book of Atheist" that will tell you to love your neighbour or have hope, you need to get those things for yourself. Being an atheist is not about any moral code or worldview. It is simply a fact that many people have come to the conclusion that there is no god. You don't weigh up the pros and cons of being a religious or an atheist and decide which would be most fun, it just happens. You either believe or you don't.

mewmoo

I wasn't religious before he died (Not an Atheist though), I'm not religious now, nor was I considering moving religions or justifying anything... I was here just shooting the s*** and that thought came into my head.

i.e. Why Atheism...

Never really knew what you believed, I knew what you didn't believe all right.

That's pretty good though now i know... you are just people, who have nothing to do with Religion or that part of society, it just so happens you have a conclusion about it, and obviously you have conclusions about other stuff too... In essence you shouldn't even be in the Religion and Spirituality section but that is the best place to file you under I guess.

Which makes me wonder why I see some many of you talking about religion, not anyone in here mind, just the Richard Dawkins of the world.

mcgarnicle

mewmoo wrote: »

I wasn't religious before he died (Not an Atheist though), I'm not religious now, nor was I considering moving religions or justifying anything... I was here just shooting the s*** and that thought came into my head.

i.e. Why Atheism...

Never really knew what you believed, I knew what you didn't believe all right.

That's pretty good though now i know... you are just people, who have nothing to do with Religion or that part of society, it just so happens you have a conclusion about it, and obviously you have conclusions about other stuff too... In essence you shouldn't even be in the Religion and Spirituality section but that is the best place to file you under I guess.

Which makes me wonder why I see some many of you talking about religion, not anyone in here mind, just the Richard Dawkins of the world.

Put it like this, if you don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster does that mean you have to believe in Big Foot or the Yeti? No it doesn't, you don't believe in anything of that sort... same as atheists don't believe in anything of the religious sort.

It's funny that a religious person finds it hard to understand why atheists talk about religion while he comes into the atheist folder and starts a post about atheism.

Sam Vimes

mewmoo wrote: »

When Religion wants to expand its community it offers a person what they need/want, hope love... What does Atheism offer?

Reality. It might not be as comforting as the idea that you're going to see your loved ones again but the fact that religion is comforting doesn't make it true. I'd rather be honestly miserable than deludedly happy

And once you realise that this is the only life you're ever going to get you can live it to the fullest

Handsome Bob

mewmoo wrote: »

The whole purpose isn't about you, it has nothing to do with you! It is about those around you. The ones you love.

While I'd be cautious in suggesting that atheists will only 'get' religion once a close loved one dies, I get what you are saying. For a lot of people religion is a beacon of strength and hope rather than a way of life. If religion helps people to cope with bereavement then I, and no-one else, has the right to dismiss that person's belief as fickle or of lacking substance.

If you have ever sat next to you father who was crying for his life and family that he was moments from leaving behind forever, you will see exactly what I'm about to say. Religions, the heavens, the souls are about saying the ones you love deserve more than this short fragile existence.

I somewhat agree. One could argue that you don't need organised religion to have hope that you might one day see your lost loved ones again. However it's an abstract ideal and one that perhaps doesn't give much hope. So people ascribe to what they can see and know and actually take part in. I guess it's a way of validating your hope.

To deny anyone that, well I guess you see what I'm saying...

What do others in this forum think about this?

I agree and it's a line I have taken myself in this forum. Unfortunately people don't really want to hear it.

mewmoo wrote: »

How does the Atheist ideal sustain itself. You reaction to a person who clearly has some very obvious "emotional vulnerability" as you put it, is to s*** on them... surely it would be better for promotion of you community to be able to offer hope? Failing that at least be able to get into the mind of the person and help them see what it is they are missing in the whole messed up situation?

And that is something I detest about this forum.

Dades

mewmoo wrote: »

Which makes me wonder why I see some many of you talking about religion, not anyone in here mind, just the Richard Dawkins of the world.

If religion was just a "personal belief" this place would be very quiet, but in reality it tends not to mind it's own business.

liah

where does hope come from with an Atheism concept

What the hell.

We need an ancient book or an imagined god to feel hope? To treasure life?

I think you have Atheism confused with a religion, to be honest. It's not. It's not even a social group. It's very much an individual thing. Some atheists simply lack a belief in religion. Some simply lack a belief in a god. Most both. The point is, there's no book to follow, no rules, it's just life. Without the belief in a god, same way we don't believe in unicorns. And it has about the same impact on our life as the lack of belief in unicorns, too.

Hope and compassion and the treasuring of life comes from the individual as a person. Religion shouldn't dictate something like that. I feel hope every day. Compassion, too, and I value my life and the lives of my friends and family just as much as the most religious person in the world. Sometimes more, because I know how fleeting and short life can be and that if I don't cherish the time I have with them now, I'll never get another chance, so I make the most of it instead of relying on the idea of an afterlife to make the wasted time seem okay.

I don't need a god to be a good person. I don't need an excuse. I don't need a carrot dangled in front of my nose to do the right thing. It's just how I am. It makes me all the stronger for it.

Why some of the religious never seem to understand that atheists are capable of the same hopes, dreams, compassion and morals as they are is completely beyond me.

Comer1

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'd rather be honestly miserable than deludedly happy

I'm with you there, but that's not true for everyone. Rember the guy who wanted to get back into the Matrix:). I bet there would be lots of people like him in the world.

Genghiz Cohen

Comer1 wrote: »

I'm with you there, but that's not true for everyone. Rember the guy who wanted to get back into the Matrix:). I bet there would be lots of people like him in the world.

Ah, but that steak looked really really nice.

bnt

Well, for me, a personal loss is what stopped me going to church: not as a reaction to the loss, but because I lost the only reason I had been going to church in the first place. My mother had been taking me to Catholic church, but she died just before I turned 13, and that was it for church. With no-one prompting me to go, I just stopped going, which tells you how much of a Believer I was. I have had personal losses since then, and seen others, but religion played no part in how I dealt with those.

The fact that some people turn to religion in times of trouble is not a validation of the religion: it's only one of the things that people turn to, alongside drink, drugs, pseudoscience, or other "escapism".

Stercus Accidit

mewmoo wrote: »

Which makes me wonder why I see some many of you talking about religion, not anyone in here mind, just the Richard Dawkins of the world.

Dades wrote: »

If religion was just a "personal belief" this place would be very quiet, but in reality it tends not to mind it's own business.

I really, really like this response, it reminds me of all the times the apathetic religious by birth sorts question our usual topics of conversation.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Ah, but that steak looked really really nice.

Wouldn't it have been funny if they sent him back as a homeless junky guy in a box?

mewmoo

It's interesting, I actually have quite a lot of things in common with many of you. I come from very much the same line of thinking, my original argue was shaky at best, but it has once again brought around some very interesting comments.

The religious type have a tendency to preach, yes it's a very true statement, it is what they are about after all.

"I believe that I make my own way through life and forge my own moral path." Something I feel myself however, I am also aware that the majority of modern law and morality (western) is actually based on the Catholic faith i.e. the ten commandments, and other various scripturey scribbles here and there.

One thing I will say though, it's something I'd say regarding our generation (20's), most of all non-religious touching on atheist/agnostic types are that because of laziness. From what I can tell, for the most part, these men and women just didn't have someone beating them up the hole like my parents and there parents before them would of. If they did they would be religious, you know the type of people I'm talkin'bout.

It's an interesting point really, not that it negates or diminishes that way of life, what do the posters on this forum feel about those individuals?

Genghiz Cohen

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Wouldn't it have been funny if they sent him back as a homeless junky guy in a box?

More than he deserved, selling us out to the machines...

Back on topic!

Flamed Diving

mewmoo wrote: »

Why Atheism?

Here:

Although the time of death is approaching me, I am not afraid of dying and going to Hell or (what would be considerably worse) going to the popularized version of Heaven. I expect death to be nothingness and, for removing me from all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism.
--Isaac Asimov, "On Religiosity," Free Inquiry

Húrin

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Reality. It might not be as comforting as the idea that you're going to see your loved ones again but the fact that religion is comforting doesn't make it true.

Religions also offer reality, though despite all their pretences neither religion nor atheist ideologies offer a view of the world as it really is. None of them has all the answers.

I'd rather be honestly miserable than deludedly happy

And once you realise that this is the only life you're ever going to get you can live it to the fullest

So what makes you different from the majority of humanity? I doubt that the preference for truth or happiness is consciously made. The fact that you are happy in your atheism indicates that like most people you probably prefer happiness.

Flamed Diving

Húrin wrote: »

Religions also offer reality, though despite all their pretences neither religion nor atheist ideologies offer a view of the world as it really is. None of them has all the answers.

Well, nothing can ever be proved conclusively, can it? So we have to choose which offers the most reasonable explanation, based on the given evidence. You stating that since both cannot provide all the answers, they must both be on equal footing is grossly misleading.

Dades

mewmoo wrote: »

One thing I will say though, it's something I'd say regarding our generation (20's), most of all non-religious touching on atheist/agnostic types are that because of laziness. From what I can tell, for the most part, these men and women just didn't have someone beating them up the hole like my parents and there parents before them would of. If they did they would be religious, you know the type of people I'm talkin'bout.

It's an interesting point really, not that it negates or diminishes that way of life, what do the posters on this forum feel about those individuals?

Atheism is kinda the default position anyway. To believe in a religion something needs to happen, so I wouldn't go with the notion of a lazy atheist.

On the contrary I believe there are an awful lot of lazy 'believers' who simply have never given much thought to what they supposedly believe.

mewmoo

Dades wrote: »

Atheism is kinda the default position anyway. To believe in a religion something needs to happen, so I wouldn't go with the notion of a lazy atheist.

On the contrary I believe there are an awful lot of lazy 'believers' who simply have never given much thought to what they supposedly believe.

Yeah, true, sheep as I like to call them. It unsettles me to see those people chatting or falling asleep during religious ceremonies, if you're going to believe in something, if your going to back it, have a bit of passion at least.

I have a thread sitting in the Christian section, trying to drum up a bit of debate on the topic of misinterpreted Christian texts. Stuff that is suppose to be consider metaphor not literal. There is a priest in my area, that when I go to mass I always go out feeling surprised, he says crazy things. Such as Mary's virgin statue is a metaphor for her being pure of heart, or a kind natured individual. He mentions other stuff like that from time to time. Unsurprisingly in the Christian section I got peoples back up about it, but in real life people think of this guy as a boring old fart with nothing interesting to say. They would rather be in and out in a 30 minutes.

GirlInterrupted

mewmoo wrote: »

Okay, I'll try and make another thread, hopefully this won't disturb the waters as much as the last one.

Now on to the point...

For those of you who have never lost a loved one, i.e. blood relative such as father, mother, brother, sister. You may not be fully getting the point or purpose of Religion (not talking about organisation here I'm talking about the convention of God/gods or souls or heaven/hell...etc).
The whole purpose isn't about you, it has nothing to do with you! It is about those around you. The ones you love.

If you have ever sat next to you father who was crying for his life and family that he was moments from leaving behind forever, you will see exactly what I'm about to say. Religions, the heavens, the souls are about saying the ones you love deserve more than this short fragile existence.

To deny anyone that, well I guess you see what I'm saying...

What do others in this forum think about this?

I think its utter tosh.

My father was an atheist. I was raised atheist, along with my four siblings, and my mother is also an atheist.

My father died suddenly last year, and heres what I believe he deserved.

He deserved a family that loved and respected him, employees that trusted him, sons who aspired to be as good a man as he was, a daughter who looked up to him and a wife that loved him unreservedly.

He deserved to live a good an honourable life. One free from superstition, false hope, stultifying control, and intellectual stifling. One free from the false promise of greater things to come in the afterlife, and as a result of that my father lived his life as he should.

Because he was perfectly and profoundly aware that this is all there is.

The measure of a man is how he lives his life. Not how much he expects after it.

mewmoo

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

I think its utter tosh.

My father was an atheist. I was raised atheist, along with my four siblings, and my mother is also an atheist.

My father died suddenly last year, and heres what I believe he deserved.

He deserved a family that loved and respected him, employees that trusted him, sons who aspired to be as good a man as he was, a daughter who looked up to him and a wife that loved him unreservedly.

He deserved to live a good an honourable life. One free from superstition, false hope, stultifying control, and intellectual stifling. One free from the false promise of greater things to come in the afterlife, and as a result of that my father lived his life as he should.

Because he was perfectly and profoundly aware that this is all there is.

The measure of a man is how he lives his life. Not how much he expects after it.

Nicely put.