Lenihan opens new non-denominational school

Dave!

Finance Minister Brian Lenihan has officially opened the country's first-ever independent non-denominational primary school.

Scoil Choilm in the Clonsilla area of west Dublin is not attached to any religious order or run by Educate Together.

It was originally opened on a temporary site in 2007 as an emergency move due to overcrowding at schools in the Dublin 15 area.

Minister Lenihan is the local TD for the area.

Anyone know the story with this school? Does it teach about religion at all? How does it differ from the ET schools?

CerebralCortex

It heard a small bit of controversy over it, something to do with morning prayers but I have way of backing that up so it could be bull****.

Overblood

I wonder what's going to happen come communion and confirmation time?

liah

Wait, what?

Is this seriously the only school in Ireland to be non-denominational? Religion is mandatory in all Irish schools?

Jesus christ! (pun unintended)

The only religious schools we have in Canada are all private, pay-to-get-in types.. the rest are all secular.

I actually honestly didn't know that. Frightening. :eek:

Dades

I don't think religion is mandatory in the multi-denominational schools, afaik.

And there's a few of them about.

Phsyche

Dades wrote: »

I don't think religion is mandatory in the multi-denominational schools, afaik.

And there's a few of them about.

My child goes to one of those (there must be about 8 Irish kids in a class of 21) and since the arrival of the new principal, he's been coming home spouting off about god being always right and talking about them singing religious songs at morning time!

Does anyone know what rights a parent has towards limiting their child's exposure to this in school? (apart from the obvious one of changing schools)

Is this what it's like in all Irish schools?

Iwasfrozen

My child goes to one of those (there must be about 8 Irish kids in a class of 21) and since the arrival of the new principal, he's been coming home spouting off about god being always right and talking about them singing religious songs at morning time!

Does anyone know what rights a parent has towards limiting their child's exposure to this in school? (apart from the obvious one of changing schools)

Is this what it's like in all Irish schools?

This happens even in non-denominational [I hate the term multi-denominational] secondary schools, when paryers are said in the morning I simply stand with my hands by my side, nobody ever questions this.
I suggest you simply tell your child from a young age that God simply does not exist.

Phsyche

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

that God simply does not exist.

I've tried. But the next day he goes to school and it's back to: she's been bad so she will not go to heaven etc, etc,.

It's frustrating.

Iwasfrozen

perhaps then you should have a chat with the Principle, if the school in non-denomonation you have the right to press for secularisation.

Dades

I would think there must be an option to have your child excluded from any type on teaching on the subject. I'm very surprised this is going on at all in those schools tbh. It's certainly worth a call to the principle - and I'd love to hear what he/she has to say.

robindch

I'd second what Dades said -- have a word with the principal, and you could try speaking with some of the other parents too. Not all of them may be aware that the school is indoctrinating their kids and it'll certainly help your case if you can find one or two other parents whose kids will be able to form an in-class non-religious group.

If my own experience is anything to go by, the principal will probably respect your wish to avoid indoctrination by removing your kid from the class while the indoctrination is taking place.

Phsyche

Thanks all. I'll try.

cls

Hi guys I was wondering if I could get a bit of advice regards schools. Is it impossible to get a child into a church run school if it has not been baptised? Most people I know baptise their kids just to get them into school but this is something I feel very strongly against. It may be wishful thinking, but I was thinking I could put my kids into the local school and just have them sit out of religion class. I don't mind that there is religious stuff going on around them because I'll be teaching them that its all mumbo jumbo and from my own experience I think it was good to learn about catholicism because it strengthened my belief that it is all BS.

So basically, I want to know is it possible to get my child into the local catholic run school, because there really is no other alternative in the area.

ArthurDent

The idea of this new VEC model being called non-denominational makes me smile to be honest - it's a defnintion of the term that I wouldn't be comfortable with. In the new VEC model schools the children are segregated for denominational instruction which takes place during the day. There is no clarity on how this denominational instruction will take place (other than obviosly for catholic/COI children) because there aren't a huge number of fully qualified primary school teachers from muslim, jewish backgrounds. The is no agreed curriculum for this area yet (afaik). My opinion (and yes it is partly formed by being involved in setting up an ET school) is that this was a mega fudge done by Hanafin and the catholic patrons to allow them to step away from some areas where the number of catholics are low, but to still ensure that a catholic ethos is available. Hanafin had a total mindset against ET and this was her way of getting around patronage. It was very interesting when these schools were set up that they were not obliged to follow the normal rules that any other school wishing to set up do. THere was no consultation on the ground as to what type of school the community wanted, in fact this school was set up despite a proven overwhelming wish for an ET school in Carpenterstown.

FWIW I don't think the ET model is a perfect solution either, but the idea of segregation of children during school hours for denominational instruction is wrong. Also as far as I am aware the BOM will still have nominees from both the catholic and COI - not sure about any other denomination.

Rev Hellfire

ArthurDent wrote: »

FWIW I don't think the ET model is a perfect solution either, but the idea of segregation of children during school hours for denominational instruction is wrong.

This whole notion of the kids getting separated during religious education is a big storm in a teacup in my view. Lets face it kids are separated based on subjects, ability, etc the whole way through their schooling.

ArthurDent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

This whole notion of the kids getting separated during religious education is a big storm in a teacup in my view. Lets face it kids are separated based on subjects, ability, etc the whole way through their schooling.

not in primary school - there is a holistic approach in the new curriculum and other than for specific educational support all children of all abilities are kept together all the time

ems_12

I went to a 'multi-denominational' school in the 90s. It worked very well, we learned about various religions in class together, and anyone who wanted to make their holy communion/confirmation had to go to a separate class when the others were on break-time! I was in for a shock when I hit secondary school with the nuns!!

Rev Hellfire

ArthurDent wrote: »

not in primary school - there is a holistic approach in the new curriculum and other than for specific educational support all children of all abilities are kept together all the time

That may be the case, but the fact is getting separated will be and is part of their school career. Sure it marks some kids as different, but that's life.

As long the other kids aren't deprived their education where's the problem.

mambo

liah wrote: »

Wait, what?

Is this seriously the only school in Ireland to be non-denominational? Religion is mandatory in all Irish schools?

Jesus christ! (pun unintended)

The only religious schools we have in Canada are all private, pay-to-get-in types.. the rest are all secular.

I actually honestly didn't know that. Frightening. :eek:

It's the first INDEPENDENT non-denominational / multi-denominational primary school, i.e. NOT run by Educate Together.

Things are bad here, but not quite THAT bad.

ArthurDent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

That may be the case, but the fact is getting separated will be and is part of their school career. Sure it marks some kids as different, but that's life.

As long the other kids aren't deprived their education where's the problem.

ok so in a class of 28 - there are 15 catholics, 5 muslims, 2 hindus, 1 COI, 5 atheists, 2 humanists and ONE (more than likely catholic/or from catholic background) teacher - when it comes to denominational instruction - those 15 catholics stay in the class and are taught be their teacher - where do the others go to and who are they taught by? The DOE only pays for 1 teacher for every 28 kids so where are the other teachers to come from and how are they to be paid? IMO a common agreed non(or multi)denonminational ethical curriculum should be delivered-doctrinal instruction(ie this is the only true faith stuff) should be organised by parents and their faith (no prob with this happening in school after school hours though - just not paid for by tax payer)

Hivemind187

liah wrote: »

Wait, what?

Is this seriously the only school in Ireland to be non-denominational? Religion is mandatory in all Irish schools?

Jesus christ! (pun unintended)

The only religious schools we have in Canada are all private, pay-to-get-in types.. the rest are all secular.

I actually honestly didn't know that. Frightening. :eek:

Welcome to Ireland. Have a look at our national television station (state funded) at about 6pm.

You'll be pleasantly horrified.

ArthurDent

mambo wrote: »

It's the first INDEPENDENT non-denominational / multi-denominational primary school, i.e. NOT run by Educate Together.

Things are bad here, but not quite THAT bad.

Well 53 multi-d's out of 3000 odd isn't great either

Rev Hellfire

ArthurDent wrote: »

ok so in a class of 28 - there are 15 catholics, 5 muslims, 2 hindus, 1 COI, 5 atheists, 2 humanists and ONE (more than likely catholic/or from catholic background) teacher - when it comes to denominational instruction - those 15 catholics stay in the class and are taught be their teacher - where do the others go to and who are they taught by? The DOE only pays for 1 teacher for every 28 kids so where are the other teachers to come from and how are they to be paid? IMO a common agreed non(or multi)denonminational ethical curriculum should be delivered-doctrinal instruction(ie this is the only true faith stuff) should be organised by parents and their faith (no prob with this happening in school after school hours though - just not paid for by tax payer)

I understand your point about the funding not been present, and to be honest my only gripe is this notion that we can't separate the kids in case someone becomes upset and finds out that not everyone is the same.

I would say its up to the school to sort out the logistics of ensuring the other kids are supervised wherever they happen to be when the majority are getting their religious education.

ArthurDent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I would say its up to the school to sort out the logistics of ensuring the other kids are supervised wherever they happen to be when the majority are getting their religious education.

Ah but there's the problem - according to this new model its meant to provide doctrinal (or equivalent) instruction for ALL during school hours - it's a total crock tbh and is just a way of providing a continuum of doctrinal instruction for catholics (and perhaps COI) during school hours without the denominational patronage model. Where exactly are they going to find fully qualified primary school teachers recognised by the teaching council and that are muslim or hindu or jewish or evangelical christian or whatever......

Rev Hellfire

ArthurDent wrote: »

Where exactly are they going to find fully qualified primary school teachers recognised by the teaching council and that are muslim or hindu or jewish or evangelical christian or whatever......

The chances are they're not. But as long as they end up receiving some tuition at the same time there's no harm done.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I just don't see the big deal. Once the little dears education doesn't suffer who actually gives a toss ?

ArthurDent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The chances are they're not. But as long as they end up receiving some tuition at the same time there's no harm done.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I just don't see the big deal. Once the little dears education doesn't suffer who actually gives a toss ?

so Catholic/COI kids are the ones that will receive doctrinal instruction and the rest can sod off? Not very MULTI-denominational or NON-denominational....
As I said before it was a poorly concieved, badly thought out cop out to appease predominantly catholic patrons. Either ALL should receive appropriate denominational instruction (which is not practicable) or none.

All religious instruction paid for and organised by parents after school is the only equitable way of dealing with this imo

Rev Hellfire

ArthurDent wrote: »

so Catholic/COI kids are the ones that will receive doctrinal instruction and the rest can sod off? Not very MULTI-denominational or NON-denominational....

The rest can you would hope receive extra instruction at the same time. I really don't see the problem. I mean realistically the only other way it could ever work is if there was no religious education at all.
Its a simple case of pleasing most of the people most of the time.

As I said before it was a poorly concieved, badly thought out cop out to appease predominantly catholic patrons. Either ALL should receive appropriate denominational instruction (which is not practicable) or none.

I'd say this has less to do with catholic patrons and more to do with pleasing Christian/catholic parents.

All religious instruction paid for and organised by parents after school is the only equitable way of dealing with this imo

I'd agree with you there in the case of non-denominational schools, the problem is I suspect that most parents seem fond of the idea of religious instruction in schools as long as its their religion

Atheists are fond of no religion in schools, but it could be argued that also is their religious stance (yes yes I know its not a religion). Everyone is really out for themselves.

ArthurDent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The rest can you would hope receive extra instruction at the same time. I really don't see the problem. I mean realistically the only other way it could ever work is if there was no religious education at all.
Its a simple case of pleasing most of the people most of the time

Or if there was religious education which encompassed the fathi/belief systems represented in the school but not instruction during school time.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'd say this has less to do with catholic patrons and more to do with pleasing Christian/catholic parents.

Not by the looks of this....

Thursday November 13 2008

The Catholic Church secured a crucial pledge from Education Minister Batt O'Keeffe yesterday on preparing pupils for Holy Communion in the new Community National Schools.

The minister reassured the bishops this preparation could take place during school hours. The assurance was given at a meeting in Leinster House. It had been requested by the bishops who wanted the situation clarified.

Two community national schools opened under the Co Dublin Vocational Education Committee this year. They are open to pupils of all religions and none.

In multi-denominational schools run by Educate Together, preparation for the sacraments takes place after school hours, but the Catholic church wants provision made within the school day for the new schools.

The bishops confirmed again their desire to see the additional model of patronage in Community National Schools succeed. They emphasised their wish to be able to assure Catholic parents of pupils in Community National Schools that their children would follow the same religious education programme as in a Catholic school.
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/new-schools-to-give-communion-lessons-during-classtimes-1537124.html

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Atheists are fond of no religion in schools, but it could be argued that also is their religious stance (yes yes I know its not a religion). Everyone is really out for themselves.

sorry not an atheist so can't speak for "them" (doubt that there is a co-hesive "them" btw), but I believe it is my duty to provide religious instruction to my children, not the state or state paid-employees

Rev Hellfire

ArthurDent wrote: »

Or if there was religious education which encompassed the fathi/belief systems represented in the school but not instruction during school time.

But that makes no sense, lets face it the cornerstone of every religion is that its right and the others are on a hiding to nothing.
Its all very touchy feely to talk about inclusiveness and teaching about other faiths. But on a practical level its not possible to do with the faithful, since they're right and the others are wrong. In my view (and its opinion) you can only either teach them separate or not at all.

ArthurDent wrote: »

The Catholic Church secured a crucial pledge from Education Minister Batt O'Keeffe yesterday on preparing pupils for Holy Communion in the new Community National Schools....

A valid point and a case of the church interfering in running of schools. But in reality this is only possible because government sees it as representing a sizeable number of the electorate. I guess they (the church) have has much a right to seek influence in the running of schools as any other group. I'd blame the government for caving in, in the end of the day they make the decisions.

sorry not an atheist so can't speak for "them" (doubt that there is a co-hesive "them" btw), but I believe it is my duty to provide religious instruction to my children, not the state or state paid-employees

My apologies if associating you with atheists leaves a bad taste, its duly noted.

ArthurDent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

My apologies if associating you with atheists leaves a bad taste, its duly noted.

no bad taste - some of my best friends are athiests but just don't happen to be one (my husband is though)