Subjectivity Part Deux

jtsuited

Right some great discussion about subjectivity about gear earlier so I thought I'd post this.
I'm a bit fond of the aul 'let's wax lyrical about aesthetic concepts' nonsense so let's keep it going.

With that in mind, let's talk about Flaws. I don't mean coughs, doors closing, or the odd bad note in your favourite records.
I think we'll all be in agreement that that kind of stuff is awesome (or that it's terrible and should be stamped out, depending on what your cup of tea is).

I mean records that sound 'bad', but that work perfectly.

I think the most extreme example of this is the Untrue album by Burial (Mercury Music award nominated don't ya know).

If you haven't heard this album, it basically it can be summed up as

'a glitchy mess of UK garage samples, out of time beats, dodgy vocal samples tuned up,down and inside out, with way too much reverb, vinyl crackle, white noise, and fairly unconventional arrangements (especially for music which would fall loosely under the term 'dance music'). All playing out of a JVC car stereo with a blown woofer.'

Sounds great huh?

thing is, it really is. It's like nothing you've heard before yet is instantly accessible.
Burial originally was completely anonymous for a long time (love that, i do) but eventually revealed himself after he became a megastar (and even when he did that is was a subtle little myspace blog stating that only about 5 or 6 people he knew actually knew he was making tunes).

Up until then, the papers were speculating that it could be Aphex Twin or Norman Cook's new project.

The reality was he was just some young lad doing his thing in his bedroom apparently on Soundforge with crappy speakers.

Don't mind stickin up a youtube vid because the loss in quality won't even be that noticeable (you'll hear what I mean).

What I really admire about this kind of stuff, is that I honestly don't think I'd have the balls to take risks like that. To not polish this, that or the other. To be completely content with what some would view as 'flaws' (Nirvana's albums also share the same characteristics in this regard).

Listen to that video there, you might love it, you might hate it, but you can't deny it's sonically unique. And there's something to be said for any art like that in my book.

Sometimes you hear a record where they played it safe, and sometimes you hear a record like this where it's doing it's own thing. Compare it to any other record and it doesn't sound anything like it.

So let's hear your thoughts on flaws?

fitz

There are parts of the last Elbow album that mix wise, shouldn't work, and some which actually don't! But damned if the thing does all hang together really well in the context of the songs and as an album.

Belle and Sebastian or Moldy Peaches are great examples of this too. There something about what they do that'd be ruined by polishing.

Vocals are a pet peeve of mine too...drives me nuts when so here a vocalist whose snging voice is nothing like their speaking voice...it's enough to put me off listening, regardless of the songs/music/production. Irrational? Yeah maybe, but there it is...

jtsuited

fitz wrote: »

Belle and Sebastian or Moldy Peaches are great examples of this too. .

Indeedin they are. Boy with The Arab Strap is a fine piece of work, that I still find myself listenin to a lot, even in this silly 'guitar bands are rubbish' phase I've been going through.

Tenner says NIN gets mentioned in the next 10 posts.

Go on Fitz, there are plenty of Trent's tracks ya can use here!:D

Jaysus, must have a look for that burial album...it was knocking around somewhere years ago...from what i remember twas quite good..
but seen as they were mentioned...any of ye at belle and sebastian in the ambassador maybe three years ago now?..
actually the best concert ive been to..playlist read like a 'my top 20 b&s songs ever', and can they pull it off live..thirteen of them on stage for half it...i was blown away..

11811

Sure sounds quite different, not really into it, but see what you mean.
I think "flaws" are important part of music, after all it is people who create it, there's an almost artificial feel to music thats too polished.
One of my favorite albums is Pavement's Slanted and Enchanted - from an engineering point of its terrible - Drums sound like they're played on a cardboard boxes, some poor vocals and the odd dodgy note - but its a fabulous record IMO!

jtsuited

11811 wrote: »

Sure sounds quite different, not really into it, but see what you mean.
I think "flaws" are important part of music, after all it is people who create it, there's an almost artificial feel to music thats too polished.
One of my favorite albums is Pavement's Slanted and Enchanted - from an engineering point of its terrible - Drums sound like they're played on a cardboard boxes, some poor vocals and the odd dodgy note - but its a fabulous record IMO!

yeah Pavement are always mentioned in these discussions. love some of their stuff.

11811

jtsuited wrote: »

yeah Pavement are always mentioned in these discussions. love some of their stuff.

Probably me mentioning them all the time!
Yeah they tend to be a little loose and rough around the edges, but it part of the charm for me! - the way bands should be - not overly sloppy or anything just sounding like a bunch of lads playing music and enjoying it!

jtsuited

11811 wrote: »

Probably me mentioning them all the time!
Yeah they tend to be a little loose and rough around the edges, but it part of the charm for me! - the way bands should be - not overly sloppy or anything just sounding like a bunch of lads playing music and enjoying it!

haha no not just you mentioning them.

had a few mates in college who were Pavement obsessives. Everytime the subject of click tracks came up they would repeat ad infinitum 'Pavement don't use clicks'!

11811

jtsuited wrote: »

haha no not just you mentioning them.

had a few mates in college who were Pavement obsessives. Everytime the subject of click tracks came up they would repeat ad infinitum 'Pavement don't use clicks'!

Really they don't??
Couldn't tell

Anima

I really like that Burial album, although some of the vocals are really cheesey.

The sound is just fantastic though, such a unique style and I'm not really sure how he manages it. Its a bit of an electronic music fantasy though isn't it? The lonely bedroom producer who creates great music and no one knows about it until he puts it on myspace. I still dont know if I believe it but it doesn't really matter I guess, its a great album. The previous album is similar in style aswell but its much darker and less accessible.

ICN

I wasnt going to read this & I thought it was going to go to pot again..


Pavement - Brilliant!

Slanted & Enchanted is a fantastic album, every single song is unbelieveable. It actually just gets better & better. Yeah, the drums are terrible.. but can you remember the original drummer from that time?

Mad Gary they called him.

He used to greet everyone coming to the gig at the door & shake their hand & thank them for coming. Think he owned the "Studio" that the album was recorded.. Not 100% about that though.

I could choose any song.. and to do so is hard.. but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwv64X0rHbE





Burial - Have both albums, & They're excellent.

What more can you say?

studiorat

Just discovered Burial recently, very very cool. I thought it was years old! Is it?

Anyway, there's two little flaws that I love to pontificate on apart from some little guitar timing things on some wedding present albums.

One is Clifford T.Ward's "Home Thoughts from Abroad" very old classic seventies song AFAIK, the song is two parts a long intro that breaks out into a big string thing when the band kick in. Well you can tell the two parts are edited because the intro is in mono and the whole thing spreads out when the band kick in. Dunno if it's on purpose or not. Also in the intro if you listen very carefully you can hear interference from a london taxi! Just under the first few bars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9G0ENZJLI8

IN other news, if you could be bothered. If you listen to the Titanic Theme Tune "My heart will go on" really really loud you can hear the conductor talking to the orchestra in the fade out at the end...

Beck of course is another artist who's flaws have become part of the music. I like to hear a little humanity in a track now and again. It's nice to sometimes hear that there's someone actually in there among all those instruments.

ICN

studiorat wrote: »

Just discovered Burial recently, very very cool. I thought it was years old! Is it?

IN other news, if you could be bothered. If you listen to the Titanic Theme Tune "My heart will go on" really really loud you can hear the conductor talking to the orchestra in the fade out at the end...

Burial - Burial - 2006. Songs were produced 2001 - 2006.

He was obviously deep underground.

Follow up - Untrue - was released in 2007.

I've actually just dug both them out & am going to listen to them now.. (Not at the same time though.. )


Think I'll pass on Celine Mate if you dont mind. She's bad enough with the sound turned down as it is! LOL

eddie.fandango

How has no one mentioned 'Niandra Ladies & usually just a t-shirt" by John Frusciante? That's a perfect example of flaws working to an albums advantage; the guitars are out of tune, his voice is in pieces, it's recorded on a crappy mic, hell, even the man himself was falling apart from drug use. The album sounds amazing because of these flaws, I recommend a listen.

jiltloop

Not sure if any of you guys would have heard this, but my favourite "flawed" album is an album by a guy from irish electronic duo Decal. It's released under the name Anodyne. It sounds filthy and distorted and beautiful because of it. Can't remember the name of the album off hand but I think it was his only release under that moniker.

jiltloop

Here's a link to one of the songs from the album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS-dszGNcGQ

jtsuited

I remember hearing about that Anodyne album from a good few lads who were mad into Decal a good while ago.

Certainly apt for this thread.

ICN

Jeesus..

That takes me back.. Sounds excellent.

Must try & see if I can get a copy of it.



I "think" - that I saw them play in The Funnel - an old club in town that was down at the Quays. Those days are a little hazy sometimes to recall.

I remember hearing it too from a Mate.. Never owned a copy of it.

I really like Decal.

I've got one 12" from years back.. Fcking relentless slab of electro with this really dirty riff. Still brilliant.

flyswatter

Love Burial, so unique.

jtsuited

welcome to the forum btw Flyswatter!

flyswatter

jtsuited wrote: »

welcome to the forum btw Flyswatter!

Thanks for the welcome jtsuited.

EDIT: Maybe I should introduce myself. I'm a 19 year old from the North East. I'm a beginner to music production and have been playing drums for 3 and a half years. FL Studio 8 is my DAW.

jiltloop

ICN wrote: »

Jeesus..

That takes me back.. Sounds excellent.

Must try & see if I can get a copy of it.



I "think" - that I saw them play in The Funnel - an old club in town that was down at the Quays. Those days are a little hazy sometimes to recall.

I remember hearing it too from a Mate.. Never owned a copy of it.

I really like Decal.

I've got one 12" from years back.. Fcking relentless slab of electro with this really dirty riff. Still brilliant.

Yeah I was lucky enough to find a copy of it second hand in city discs, had been looking for it for years. I first heard it when it was played in its entirety on power fm I think (and yes I did record it all onto tape). I'd love to know what equipment he used to make it. It's dated as 1996.

ICN

ICN wrote: »

I really like Decal.

I've got one 12" from years back.. Fcking relentless slab of electro with this really dirty riff. Still brilliant..

Been listening to old records today.. I'm amazed how fresh they all sound.

The Decal 12" is Ble e.p.

I'm having a tough time trying to decide whether its all just great music or my tastes are blinkered.

I seriously think its just that they're good tunes. Its a pity that most people will never listen to "Club" tracks @ home.

A lot of "unheard" or "not heard enough" classics have probably been lost to the mists of time forever..


One thing that I dont miss about Vinyl is that you had to buy the whole record to get the one tune that you liked.

At least with beatport you can buy what you like & cut off the chaff.

Scubadevils

Decal still on the go (one of them anyway) and some free tracks posted on his website, haven't listened yet myself but may be of interest to some given the mention here...

http://decal-artifacts.com/audio.html

ICN

Felixdhc wrote: »

Decal still on the go (one of them anyway) and some free tracks posted on his website, haven't listened yet myself but may be of interest to some given the mention here...

http://decal-artifacts.com/audio.html

Nice one Felix!

Very thoughtful Man

Scubadevils

ICN wrote: »

Nice one Felix!

Very thoughtful Man

Ah well you know, with the imminent arrival of the EMP (Electronic Music Production :pac: ) forum I felt I should browse a few of the threads here and see what's what.

ICN

Felixdhc wrote: »

Ah well you know, with the imminent arrival of the EMP (Electronic Music Production :pac: ) forum I felt I should browse a few of the threads here and see what's what.

Networkings cool!

Scubadevils

ICN wrote: »

Networkings cool!

Absolutely, plus I do wanna learn!

FlipperThePriest

'a glitchy mess of UK garage samples, out of time beats, dodgy vocal samples tuned up,down and inside out, with way too much reverb, vinyl crackle, white noise, and fairly unconventional arrangements (especially for music which would fall loosely under the term 'dance music'). All playing out of a JVC car stereo with a blown woofer.' - Love it!!

The brain loves a good surprise, a break from the norm and to be kept guessing!

What do you think of 65 days of static, great track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAZEcg8NLtM&feature=related

Cool topic!

splitrmx

Andoyne is not Decal. He's a friend of theirs who released his first album on Decal's Ultramack label. Both Anodyne and Decal played in the Funnel frequently, Decal ran the Friday nights there. I've got Anodyne's album (http://www.discogs.com/Anodyne-Ultramack-005/release/106327) which is amazing and was far ahead of its time. It was recorded on some very basic gear based around a clapped out Amiga, so I wouldn't call it flawed, just lo-fi in places.

As for Burial, I'd call his sound a slightly updated take on the Pole sound. Pole, aka Stefan Betke, who has been releasing music since the late 90s, based his sound on a broken Waldorf 4-Pole filter which produced lots of hiss and crackles which he incorporated into his tracks. Stick some R+B vocals over his stuff and you have Burial.

ICN

splitrmx wrote: »

Andoyne is not Decal. He's a friend of theirs who released his first album on Decal's Ultramack label. Both Anodyne and Decal played in the Funnel frequently, Decal ran the Friday nights there...

Excellent - Proof that it actually did happen!

LOL

It was a great spot.

jiltloop

splitrmx wrote: »

Andoyne is not Decal. He's a friend of theirs who released his first album on Decal's Ultramack label. Both Anodyne and Decal played in the Funnel frequently, Decal ran the Friday nights there. I've got Anodyne's album (http://www.discogs.com/Anodyne-Ultramack-005/release/106327) which is amazing and was far ahead of its time. It was recorded on some very basic gear based around a clapped out Amiga, so I wouldn't call it flawed, just lo-fi in places.

As for Burial, I'd call his sound a slightly updated take on the Pole sound. Pole, aka Stefan Betke, who has been releasing music since the late 90s, based his sound on a broken Waldorf 4-Pole filter which produced lots of hiss and crackles which he incorporated into his tracks. Stick some R+B vocals over his stuff and you have Burial.

That's interesting, do you know if he released anything else?