Does religion make you more likely to commit murder/suicide?

seamus

OK, I didn't post this in the christianity forum for a number of reasons. Firstly, my intention is not to be controversial here and enrage believers, it's simply to stimulate debate on the topic. Secondly, I thought I'd give the atheist first bat because the argument is so often mooted that "Lack of belief in God/an afterlife causes people to commit horrible deeds because they don't fear the reaper".
And lastly, it's a bit of a sensitive topic.

Because it was this which made me think of it.

Adrian Dunne asked his family priest days before killing his wife and children if people who take their own lives can get into heaven, an inquest heard today.

Fr Richard Redmond told the hearing into the tragic Monageer murder-suicide deaths the father-of-two telephoned him one night shortly before they were found dead.

The curate recalled Adrian, 29, was concerned after listening to a US Catholic radio show about suicide that claimed people who kill themselves don’t go to heaven.

The question being: If someone had told him straight out - "Listen mate, it's all crap. There's nothing else after this. You get one go, and that's it." - would he have gone through with it? Maybe for himself, but if he knew that there was no silver lining, no big white cloud for his family, would he have taken their lives too?

I know it's a pretty raw one to bring up, but I'm basically asking the question of anyone is such desperate circumstances. Does someone commit suicide in the hope that, "Whatever comes next, can't possibly be as bad as this"; If they were told that you get one life and make the most of it, good or bad, would they go through with suicide, or would they go and see how the story ends?

tba

Im of the opinion that belief or lack of it will have no bearing on the likelihood of suicide or murder, its all in the persons head.

In reality its belief or lack of it that they use to disguise their true reason, depression or simple madness.

Holsten

Both yes and no.

Suicide, Yes, they think they'll end this life and start another/end up in heaven.

Suicide, No, It is a moral sin that will send you straight to hell.

Dave!

Well on the one hand it's tempting to write it off and say that there has been and always will be nutjobs who do crazy things, regardless of their religious inclination. You can't legislate for parents, childrens' primary caregiver, going mad and killing their kids and themselves. I doubt if religion was done away with that we wouldn't see this happen again.

However Islamic suicide bombers are seemingly motivated by religious fervor primarily, or it certainly provides them with the motivation, courage, and conviction to go through with it. They don't necessarily need to have any mental (besides the obvious...) or social problems, can be well educated, and have a good job.

So evidentally religion can motivate people to do terrible things in certain circumstances, so it's plausible that it played a part in the tragedy in the OP. Nevertheless (without having delved into the story any deeper) I would probably be more inclined to attribute the parents' actions to mental problems than religion.

Overblood

Jonestown, Heavens Gate and Wako come to mind, but they're extreme cases...

Crumble Froo

i think it may depend very much on the person's social setting and the society they live within. a close friend of mine was big big big into the local music scene. their youth was about gigs, drink, drugs, sex, **** the world and let's have fun. none belonged to any religious thing, though they had been brought up an assortment of christian, atheist and mormon, that i know of. certainly more than one of the group lived with depression and self medicated, but over 15 years, 5 or 6 of them took their own lives. feck knows how many others died of stupid reasons, like walking in front of a car while drunk, drug OD, alcoholism/****ed liver... reuniting with those mates, or nights in drinking listening to music from those times, and conversation without fail turns to various members of the group who are dead.

but i think it is safe to say that if htey belonged to (and practiced/practised - which one is it?) their religion, they would probably never have been on that scene together, never have gotten into the lifestyle, and possibly, though i guess you can never know, wouldn't have taken their lives.

i do know of people, though, whose only reason for not killing themselves (how much of a reason/excuse/'cop out', or whatever, ill never know) is that they are religious, and believe that it is a mortal sin and if things are bad here and now, imagine an eternity in hell.

personally, having been suicidal myself for a period, i was actually a church-going bible-reading catholic at the time, and the issue of religion/morality was never an issue. i just wanted the situation i was in to be over, and to get out of it.

Zillah

I'm sure there's statistics on this. I have a vague memory of seeing something that argued that the more religious you were then the less likely you are to commit suicide, but I don't recall where.

That aside, I don't think the "you only get one shot" argument would fly very well. If my life became so unbearable that I wanted it to end, I don't think I'd give a crap that there's nothing else. Oblivion by definition can't be a bad thing.

I'm sure there's people who have killed themselves thinking they were going to a better place. However, those same people might have done it anyway if they were atheists, as the root cause for the suicide remains, regardless of how they rationalise their decision.

Crumble Froo

Zillah wrote: »

I'm sure there's statistics on this. I have a vague memory of seeing something that argued that the more religious you were then the less likely you are to commit suicide, but I don't recall where.

struggling to find a decent, comprehensive link here, but emile durkheim, one of the 'fathers of sociology' showed that social factors, including religion did have an impact on a person ending up committing suicide. i think the basic explanation given is that belonging to a religion usually gave the person a greater sense of belonging, consistent with the stats on people being more likely to commit suicide in rural areas than populated ones, and men, who tend to share feelings etc less being more likely to kill htemselves than women.

Splendour

seamus wrote: »

The question being: If someone had told him straight out - "Listen mate, it's all crap. There's nothing else after this. You get one go, and that's it." - would he have gone through with it? Maybe for himself, but if he knew that there was no silver lining, no big white cloud for his family, would he have taken their lives too?

I wonder if Adrian Dunne asked the priest if he would gain entry into heaven having commited murder as well as suicide.
However given his mental state I imagine would've gone ahead with it regardless of what the priest told him. In a case such as this, I don't think religion enters into it much. When a person is in that state they just want to end their lives no matter what's at the end of it.

A different slant on this topic is the fanatic suicide bombers we hear of in some religions. These people will both murder and commit suicide having been taught they will be rewarded in Heaven for their sarcrifice.

seamus

Zillah wrote: »

I'm sure there's statistics on this. I have a vague memory of seeing something that argued that the more religious you were then the less likely you are to commit suicide, but I don't recall where.

I can't remember the specifics myself, but I think it was something along the lines of "those who attend religious services regularly are less likely to commit suicide". Which makes sense and fits it into the idea of "belonging". Indeed, someone so depressed as to want to commit suicide is unlikely to want to spend time with other people.

That aside, I don't think the "you only get one shot" argument would fly very well. If my life became so unbearable that I wanted it to end, I don't think I'd give a crap that there's nothing else. Oblivion by definition can't be a bad thing.

That is a good point and may just illustrate the disconnect I have with suicide. That is, that I can't understand it. For me, being alive, no matter how ****ty it becomes, must be far better than oblivion. Maybe that's age, maybe that's ego, I dunno.

It kind of leads on though to what I actually meant to ask in my OP (but I went to the pub instead :pac: ). Ignoring specific religiousness, does a belief in the afterlife, or a belief that there must be "something more", provide some form of "fuel" to allow people to do these things? Obviously it's very difficult to poll suicide cases, but most people, regardless of creed (even atheists), when challenged, will admit to believing that there's something more. Or at the very least that they have trouble accepting that there is nothing more, to the point of denial. This is probably a function of the ego.

As I say, it could be a disconnect on my part as I've never had to deal with suicide(s), but for me I cannot imagine *anything* worse than oblivion.

Flamed Diving

Suicide: Yet another clause tacked on to religion when it was found that people were taking 'risky behaviour' after being told of this magical afterworld.

:rolleyes:

Dades

Believing or not believing will not lead you to depression or suicide - external or physiological influences will - so I think the question has to be narrowed somewhat.

Say, will a person who suffers from depression or suicidal tendencies, who believes in a god, be more or less likely to commit suicide?

JimiTime

I think if someone believes that if they kill themselves they'll end up in a better place, its fairly obvious that such a view could increase the risk of suicide. Obviously, there are other criteria that would be involved as well as this belief, but I can't see such a belief being harmless by any means.

A point of note though, and it is anecdotal, but I've known a few people who were religious and depressive. Most of the time they were believing they were going to hell though.

Handsome Bob

I'm pretty sure suicide equates to a "mortal sin", and thus heaven will not be waiting for you upon commiting the deed. In fact, some religions go out of their way to put suicide on a pedestal as a thing not to do. You can imagine a family and friends' anger upon being told by the local church that they will not give a funeral to their loved one as he took his own life. The majority of believers will be aware of this stance too so IMO religion definitely does not make you more likely to commit suicide. Since you're being told that you're going to hell if you do it and all.

seamus

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure suicide equates to a "mortal sin", and thus heaven will not be waiting for you upon commiting the deed. In fact, some religions go out of their way to put suicide on a pedestal as a thing not to do. You can imagine a family and friends' anger upon being told by the local church that they will not give a funeral to their loved one as he took his own life. The majority of believers will be aware of this stance too so IMO religion definitely does not make you more likely to commit suicide. Since you're being told that you're going to hell if you do it and all.

Yes, but now we have the "fluffy" religion where people are being told that they can be saved from their sins, no matter how mortal or heinous.

I very much doubt that priest told Adrian Dunne that, "Yes, sorry Adrian but your brother will be burning in hell for all eternity". I'd imagine he took the softly-softly approach and told him something about if you live a good life and repent, blah blah.

This is kind of where I'm coming from with it. But I could be way off.

Handsome Bob

seamus wrote: »

Yes, but now we have the "fluffy" religion where people are being told that they can be saved from their sins, no matter how mortal or heinous.

I very much doubt that priest told Adrian Dunne that, "Yes, sorry Adrian but your brother will be burning in hell for all eternity". I'd imagine he took the softly-softly approach and told him something about if you live a good life and repent, blah blah.

This is kind of where I'm coming from with it. But I could be way off.

I understand where you are coming from in regards to the priest perhaps not having the brutal honesty to tell the family what he really thought (and what his religion told him to say) about their loved one commiting suicide.

However I do feel there's very little scope for comforting someone from a religious point of view. For one the person who commits the act has no opportunity to "repent". It's done, there's no way of absolving yourself of the act because your gone. Religion is very clear about suicide and what awaits those who commit the act. All the priest can do is play dumb and console the family with the idea of their loved one possibly receiving "mercy" before "Christ".

Zillah

seamus wrote: »

IThat is, that I can't understand it. For me, being alive, no matter how ****ty it becomes, must be far better than oblivion. Maybe that's age, maybe that's ego, I dunno.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'll hazard a guess that you've had a relatively pleasant life thusfar? I also have been quite fortunate in life, but I think most people have a point in their teens where it occurs to them that giving up would be so much easier. I've never seriously contemplated it, but I can totally understand when I think along the lines of "If things were twice as bad and looked liked they'd stay that way forever..."

One of my best friends committed suicide a little over a year ago. He was an atheist, and knowing him he wasn't one to secretly suspect there was an afterlife, he no doubt believed that it was the real end. When I think about the problems he had in life I don't blame him, I understand. Obviously I'd prefer if it hadn't happened and that he could have fixed all those problems, but it has perhaps given me a little insight into the mentality of someone who could do such a thing.

So I would humbly propose that your claim that you'd never contemplate it no matter how bad things became is a little facetious until the day things truly become that bad. If you've read 1984, think of that moment when the protagonist is struck in the elbow with a baton and he realises that a human being in pain will do anything in their power to make it stop.

Naz_st

Zillah wrote: »

I'm sure there's statistics on this. I have a vague memory of seeing something that argued that the more religious you were then the less likely you are to commit suicide, but I don't recall where.

seamus wrote: »

I can't remember the specifics myself, but I think it was something along the lines of "those who attend religious services regularly are less likely to commit suicide".

This study mentions the statistics on this, it was more of a study on the correlation (or lack thereof) between religiosity and "societal health" and it would seem to suggest that societal religiosity would correlate positively with murder rates but negatively (or not at all) with suicide rates.

From the discussion at the end of the study on the statistics:

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). ... Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors.

mewmoo

Well if you question is, "Does it make me a better cook?", well that's an objective thing... one persons pallet is different from another. One man disgusting vomit is another's meal of a life time.

All in all, I can't really see anything wrong with dried herbs. Yes, you don't get the same kind of flavors and kicks you get with the fresh stuff straight from the back garden, but we are busier people knowadays.

Wat'ya goin' do?