Knife defence - fun but pointless?

--amadeus--

We did a session on knife defence last night and I have to say it was rerally enjoyable. It was nice to do something very different and although we were using wooden knives it helped focus the mind on why you needed to get the techniques exactly right - a couple of inches out and the knife was in your chest rather than pointing away from you or whatever.

Now in reality if someone pulls a knife the smart thing is just to run. But even if you can't the general feeling was that knife defence tactics - while they looked good and are required for teh curriculum - don't really have much of a place in the real world. Even the instructor commented a few times that people without training but carrying a knife were unlikely to attack in teh straight lines that most of teh defences are based on.

So what do you think? Fun but pointless or teh sort of thing that might just save your life?

SorGan

cant be pointless if what's being thought is real world viable, but im sure lots of it is simply b.s.

Davaeo09

Having done a fair few knife defence seminars I can say that they do woork, we trained with a rubbed one, with some sort of dye on the "blade" if it touched you the paint would show, we had to attack with intent and as if we meant to harm. The defender had to focus 100% or the dye would show some where on your clothing.

After 40+ attempts about 99% of the 40 some thing of us there were avoiding, blocking and disarming the attacker, who was in no way holding back.


HOWEVER
One thing you must not forget is that you cannot always anticipate weather or not the person has a knife. Also, there's the adrenaline factor and your ability to focus will probably be over written bye the "fear factor"


Oh btw, nice pun with the title "pointless"


:pac:

Hephaestus

--amadeus-- wrote: »

So what do you think? Fun but pointless or teh sort of thing that might just save your life?

Absolute waste of time IMHO & some of the techniques that I've seen are so fu*king dangerous that they could get you killed if you tried to use them in a real life situation!

If I was attacked by somebody with & blade I'd try to hit hard & fast & then run like f*ck!

This guy is getting a sh*t load of abuse over on the EFN site at the moment & it's no surprise when you look at some of the **** he's teaching people. I love his headband though:cool:

Davaeo09

Quite honestly about 40% of his techniques are good

His idea of bone lock's and manipulation are about the only way you can disarm a stronger person than ones self.
BUT, he gets too close to the person and the blade, people that are good at this develop techniques that emphasise keeping distance from your torso and the blade are best.

Hephaestus

Davaeo09 wrote: »

Quite honestly about 40% of his techniques are good

His idea of bone lock's and manipulation are about the only way you can disarm a stronger person than ones self.
BUT, he gets too close to the person and the blade, people that are good at this develop techniques that emphasise keeping distance from your torso and the blade are best.

You think 40% of his techniques are good. Are you having a laugh?

Look at some more of his vids on You-Tube there are loads of them & many of them are even worse than the 1 I linked to.

This guy classes himself as a Grandmaster of some sh*t named STAV.

I like to show most MA styles respect even if I think they are a load of bol*ocks but there are exceptions & this is certainly one of them.

This cu*t teaches this sh*t to kids which IMHO could get them killed if they tried to use it in a real life situation.

Ballisong

WOW he's pretty bad alright.

Davaeo09

But what would a kid not trained try to do any way?

I agree with you that he is quite foolish and all, but I think the idea is quite pathetic in itself. People should be educated on how to avoid getting into a situation like that tbh.

Quillo

Practicing defenses against an over-extended lunging thrust seems a tad unrealistic... it is the knife defense equivalent of the punch defense against the slow lunging front punch that is left hanging in the air for the defender to block and do an arm bar on

Anyone with a knife and the intention to use it will most probably either come up behind you and have it in you before you know anything about it or use a frontal attack based on short fast slashes, which are horrendously difficult to defend against. I believe it is possible to give yourself a slim chance though (which is better than none) with the right practice and with an understanding that you're probably going to get your hands and arms cut up some.... better than your neck, torso or legs though !

What is the right practice ?

I'd say look to the Filipino and Indonesian systems and to modern combatives that have a strong emphasis on not just the physical skills but also the mindset necessary to to survive something as shocking as having a live blade come at you repeatedly and with intent.............

Roper

I have never seen a knife defence thing I'd be comfortable with. The ones that come closest for me ar the stuff that accepts that you're going to get cut.

I don't want to make statistics up, but I think most people's experience of knife attacks is not a duel type situation, where one guy has a knife and you face off to him and try to fight until he stabs you or you disarm him. The first time people know a guy has a blade is usually when it makes contact with them, either by actual stabbing or by holding the knife against you.

That guy in the video is dreadful and is teaching the sort of thing that will get you killed very quickly.

BigDuffman

Instructors that teach bad method are instilling false confidence in their students that could potentiatlly end up putting them in more risk by attempting to disarm as opposed to legging it...I saw this on the program Human weapon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcyrGuUnmMk (skip to about 5:00)

I think it perfectly demonstrates the reality of a face off with an opponent wielding a knife in comparison to executing a text book disarm on an attacker that is blatantly wielding a knife in an overt and overstated manner who then lunges and swings out slowly in huge looping angles.

Filipino kali and silat do great things with knife defence.

Nothingcompares

had a look at that clip there duffman. Does it show a live clip of the krav guy defending a knife attack? I see much evidence to support the idea you're ****ed if someone tries to stab you and you try and fight back. But I don't see any defence. the bursting i see is all choreographed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FNp0jGoJAo&feature=related

6:30 is actually quite good but perhaps not very realistic

silat liam

I agree with Roper on this and its a very uncomfortable fact when dealing with knives, is that you prob are going to get cut, but at the same time you cant always use the example of being able to run away. Anyone with common sense knows that if you can, escape and run fast. But maybe the situation arises you cant run. We always think about when it comes to self defence about ourselves, but what happen maybe you out with your child, and no matter what co operation you giving to the situation, the attacker decides to up the ante and you do have to do something, even if its just to give time. So learning some realistic aspects of how a blade works (and not the old lunge or x block or even the kick the knife out of hand technique against a willing opponent). Its a very bad time to learn some fundalmentals on the subject.

In Cimande silat they have a rough progress to this situation

1. Run / Escape by what ever means
2. If you cant escape try to find a Equaliser, something you can put in the way of your body and his (dont't use a friend as it destroy friendship lol:D)
3. If there nothing you can use learn how to use body to close of or at least make more difficult for the attacker to slash or stab
4. Evade his strikes and slashes
5. Disarm or destroy the attacker abilities to continue this is the last resort and most dangerous time, but you probely have no option at this time.

and if anytime you can escape do it.

tallaght01

I guess the reality is that very few people have much real-life experience of dealing with knife attacks.

You can take the defeatist approach that they're all useless, and don't train in knife defences.

Or you can train realistically. But you've got to train with an opponent who's really trying to hit you, and who's attacking you from odd angles, hard and fast.

In KM, we talk about knife attacks as being really bad news, and we don't delude ourselves into thinking there's an easy way out. IN fact, my instructor was really talking about how he'd prefer a gun pointed at him than a knife. And I think that's fair enough.

The head honcho in the IKMF says that in all the training of police/military units that he's done, he's never come across ANYONE who's managed to (or needed) to disarm someone of a knife if they've successfully defended against the attack. The point he makes is that you've got to defend, get one shot in, and get out. And I think that's fair enough.

But, at the end of the day I'd hate to be in that position. Everyone's an expert.I don't know what would happen if some nutcase hammered at me with a blade. But I know I'd rather have prepared for it to some extent, than not at all.

Baggio...

Quillo wrote: »

modern combatives that have a strong emphasis on not just the physical skills but also the mindset necessary to to survive something as shocking as having a live blade come at you repeatedly and with intent.............

Totally agree....

beGood

Knife attacks are nasty and unpredictable affairs and there's no foolproof defence except for avoiding being in such a situation or outrunning the attacker to safety.

As an annecdote that is in NO WAY a proof that training knife defences will save a person under attack, one of my Judo teachers here had a knife pulled on him by a single attacker in a pedestrian tunnel. The attacker lunged at him and my teacher executed a knife defence from Judo's Kime no Kata. The attacker ended up on the ground and cutting himself and my teacher got out of there without a scratch. A lucky fellow, I would say.

Practicing knife defences is definitely fun training, and from my point of view as a Judoka practicing them brings something new and interesting outside the usual Judo sessions. They might work for someone, on a certain day, in a certain environment, under certain conditions; but I don't ever want to find out through personal experience!

BigDuffman

Nothingcompares wrote: »

had a look at that clip there duffman. Does it show a live clip of the krav guy defending a knife attack? I see much evidence to support the idea you're ****ed if someone tries to stab you and you try and fight back. But I don't see any defence. the bursting i see is all choreographed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FNp0jGoJAo&feature=related

6:30 is actually quite good but perhaps not very realistic

My bad! Meant to say it basically show's how ****ed you are when someone does start going to town with a blade.

--amadeus--

Interesting discussion

Only thing I would add is that we've all been concentrating on an attacker who was coming in with an intent to maim or kill. Often knives (or syringes) are used in muggings where the attacker is using the weapon to intimidate the victim. I would have thought that they would be textbook setups for traditional knife defence to work really well?

BigDuffman

Interesting point alright! But in the event of something like that happening and some-one is in a typical hold up (A junkie with glazed eyes "gimme your wallet") situation with a syringe ... and the weapon is obviously just for intimidation. I wouldn't bother with an attempted disarm throw the wallet at their feet and high tail it.

But some dirt bag outside supermacs who pulls a blade mid fight is a different situation. Or if other people involved etc.

Scramble

The first time people know a guy has a blade is usually when it makes contact with them, either by actual stabbing or by holding the knife against you.

I think Roper is correct, really. If you look at most of what is taught on the subject in terms of hands-on material then it will usually not be ideal if you begin assuming the above to be the most likely scenario.

A lot of material, even if it is trained athletically, seems to begin with two parties almost squaring off, and a gap between them that the guy with the knife must close. Unforunately, it might be more realistic to begin this type of training from a set-up where the person with the knife (or mock screwdriver or syringe) begins behind the other person, holding them, and with their weapon against the entrance to the person's ear canal or throat.

What do you do from that position? Beats me...

I think it is a bit like asking how to escape from a rear naked choke which is on tight. The best solution = avoiding getting into that position. It might sound trite, but there it is.

I agree that in martial arts training knife defence can be seen as fun or a bit of variation. There's no doubt about that- I think alot of the combatives-type material out there is popular with people because they want to do all the exotic stuff, ironically the same reason some people are still attracted to very traditional martial arts using weapons.

It bothers me that alot of silly material is taught, because although the odds of someone actually needing to defend themselves against a knife are comparatively slim, it is not something that can be written off as an anachronism either, unfortunately.

Martin25

There are a few things that can help in a knife attack situation.
Common sense
Realistic no wasted scenarios of stupid slow motion stuff that looks good an can get you killed
Killer instinct
No BS approach
Use what works
Fight dirty
Don't have a silly " i'm knife fighter mentality"
Don't duel with the knife

pearsquasher

Imagine everyone carried a knife and were willing to use it in a fight....

The bujinkan martial arts takes this as being the case as it comes from medival Japanese culture where you HAD to assume the above. When you think like this then everything you do from unarmed striking/grappling to weapons use.. changes.

I was attacked with a blade by an emotionally disturbed aquaintence a few years ago and my training allowed me to avoid and disarm the assailent without hurting them... and it wasn't because of some "knife defence" technique but because of the WAY we train...... It was unconciously built- in that a blade was probable if I was being attacked in the first place. I was lunged at, not seeing the blade till it was deployed, so my footwork and distance took me to a safe place automatically before i knew there WAS a blade. This is a fundamental part of classical Japanese jujutsu - ASSUME a weapon AND multiples and work from there.... even when training in the dojo with one, unarmed person.

Martin25

I have seen a lot of martial arts demos from diverse systems with compliant and telegraphed "knife /Weapon attack they were sometimes very well rehearsed and give students a false sense of security which may result in disaster in the street.

Nothingcompares

Martin25 wrote: »

There are a few things that can help in a knife attack situation.
Common sense
Realistic no wasted scenarios of stupid slow motion stuff that looks good an can get you killed
Killer instinct
No BS approach
Use what works
Fight dirty
Don't have a silly " i'm knife fighter mentality"
Don't duel with the knife

that's just pyscobabble not one iota of actual information there.

Martin25

Ok just run then!

tallaght01

But how do any of us realistically know what's the most effective way to train for knife attacks? How many knife attacks does your average punter suffer in their lifetime!

BigDuffman

Unfortunately nowadays even the average buzzer is in danger of a dirt bag with a blade more than ever! It seems to be getting progressively worse with more and more carrying knifes. A mentality is developing whereby if one carries a blade the rest will follow suit in order to "protect" themselves.

In saying that I hope we never reach the level that london is at. With stabbings becoming a near nightly occurrence.

Martin25

Ok here goes;
Don't waste time on hard blocking a knife, its suicidal and any one who promotes it is kidding! Try the famous X bolck with someone who knows and see what happens!
Killer Instinct-hit hard and fast when the opportunity arises keep hitting till its over.

No BS - Train in a system which gives reality based information not sports stuff which will be ok in competition.

Use what works- do some research and don't accept any thing at face value.

Try grappling with someone holding a training knife and see how many times you get "cut or stabbed".

Millionaire

Knife Defenses... a very interesting topic. Blind acceptance of any systems idea of a knife defense, is dangerous be that the Instructor with his own ego & ego re other systems, (my dad is better than your dad! like 7 year old kids arguing).

Myself, I can tell you, & you can find it one here too, when I used to post alot on here, I was very ego hung up on certain aspects of Krav Maga. (now other aspects of Krav Maga I spotted the weakness, having been kick boxing all those years.) But knife defenses as per the Krav Maga DVDs or Yanilovs Krav Maga against Armed attack or whatever its called book.

I blindly accept the unquestionable doubt KM Knife defenses worked because (puts on snotty little girlie mocking voice" " Krav Maga got the best knife defenses, because IDF Special Forces use Krav Maga & so does the FBI, & na na na na"...

I like an Islamic Suicide bomber unquestionble belief that his terrorism will get him 72 virgins from Allaha in the VIP section of Club Heaven, I argued & shouted using what now jades me with boredom the Krav Maga mythical "Miracle" do a few KM classes & you will be Rambo, just because the IDF & Special forces do Krav Maga.
(Or Does the IDF really do Krav Maga, find my post a few hours ago, you will find out the truth.) Not even realizing the logic Special Forces Shoot.

Me, nearest thing to a knife attack, was when few years back, one night I was not as streetwise as I should have been, bit of a verbal with a few lads. Told them to "F off leave me alone" I got 2 excellent full power right cross to left eye sucker punches, my own fault (eye was closed for days after, eye that bad) I fought back & 1 dude as fast & as accurate (not his first time I guess) smashed a large sized heavy beer bottle off the wall, bottle broke & attacker 1 had a lovely jagged point spiked sharp & heavy glass bottle, (no much different than knife) & immediate he swung it full power for my eye ball (I slipped head back boxing style but felt it swish past inch or so from eye ball) back fist style again he slash & slipped it again inch or so at eye ball. His violence level exploded higher re missing me & my fear was 1000 worse than fear I feel if "scrap"fight which is bad fear at the normal level. I knew I was f**Ked if he got another go as his buddies closing in (all this was 2 seconds so fast) slash 3, I blasted inside his stabbing arm, which I trapped, & do not really remember, as "Fight"symdrome was in... actually I was in "kill" which must click in, as it was much higher level of "Fight" ( re Fight vs Flight vs most peoples doom Freeze) that I ever experienced. Anyway I vague recollection of pure venom hatred mode (he sure was in similar mode well before me) & I hit him with knees, elbows, Ithink I bite him. I definately out him down & out for a few mins. Anyway other rounded on me...(more survival etc) but Jaged Spiked Broken Bottle man who God Grace, training helped but there was luck involved too, in me not getting slashed, & I certainly was most aware, even though I never experience it as strong beofore going into a completely different "Kill"mindset which I assume is natural (perhaps its extra double dose of Adrenal dump & mans instinct to survive) I knew for sure, that this mindet was what let me get inside that 3rd stab as his killer instinct was exploding too, obviosly he was used to doing the job on the 1st stabb! & I did take bottle or he dropped it when I got inside on the "Brust & Chain" , I think admit knees. elbows bites & forearm into throat. he come around, as I was narrowly hanging in with the others on me, & as I was escaping, bottle man was psycho pathic violent, maybe 10 or more meters away, & was getting himself revved up as they regrouped & just about 10 secs from coming again..as I got the hell out of there. (No way would I have lasted if they got a 2nd go.. well v doubtful i d laste, luckily I got sprinted was welll away etc...)

Ok, not an official butchers knife attack, but I d guess there would be little difference in getting a busted eye ball or a slashed face re the pain & done for, regardless if it is was that jagged spiked heavy broken bottle or a sharp kitches knife. (ok one might make a cleaner scar later in life, if not killed, but on impact... game over for me). And I 99% sure I got wallop over head with empty beer bottle which did not break, I did not feel it during the bottle slasher seconds. but the top of my head was cut & brused (impact blunt stike cuts & brusing) next day, since I reported it to cops, they came back cops 2 days after to photo top of my head.

Now to facts...
1. Own fault, used to drink, do not now, with drink in, instead of clear out fast before getting cornered, & was too slow to see what was happening (random violence, if not me, would have been someone else) as approach was friendly which got nasty for no reason & telling 5 or 6 snarling dudes to go "F**K off" in aggressive manner not good Defensive Tactics... & I deluded myself with drink in me, to think they actually would F off. Instead got 2 very hard fast punches to eye, & I fecked up, as I had no fence up.

2. Worst eye injury I ever had, re eye puffed up & closed for 1 week like a plum sticking out of where my eye normally is. Perhaps its plenty of training, & since the only "psychology of self defense" I read or knew about then was Geoff Thompson stuff, that kicked in, fear did not freeze me & I fought back immediate. (the punches should have done me, but I pushed through that).

3. He jumped back as I jumpedin , just the extra half inch my punches to his face, lost the stopping power, & he jumped back again, & like a pro bottle in hand, broken off wall or table, (just like in the movies, for record 2nd attempt he broke bottle which made him more mad, & when I seen bottle pre break, I jumped back a step with fence up. he missed eye inch or so then etc...

Here is the Key Point ---> Fight was on before bottle. (4 sec max from I got punch no 1 until bottle went for eye approx) that 4-5 seconds felt like 30 seconds, also I seen he had buddies moving in, so mentally I was in Fight Zone, I was raging I got hit & no question he was getting it back x 10, & other pricks moving in, must have pushed the "survival mode" higher. So as Anthony Robbins or to be correct its from NLP, I was in "peak state" for fight to survive, Pre Bottle..
KEY POINT-> maybe 2 seconds ish for him & he was fast to grab & 2nd fast hit of bottle on wall or table broke it into stabbing spike. But I saw this happening, (as fear rocketed & then slash 1 miss me eye, fear when to "killer instinct". I never felt it to that level before, but I identified that "Fear" & "killer instinct" I knew it could freeze me or assist me, (Thank you Geoff Thompson) & I knew I was in very very serious trouble, that all came together in a flash. odds re other attacker were v bad, so I was either F**Ked or triple F**ked, Go for it.. & just be beaten... not go for it be blinded as he deliberable targeted by eyes, (= not a virgin newbie stabber.. not his first time nor 10th either, more as he was good, fast, no hesitation at all, & extremely violent & set me up well).
right.. was was sin binned for 2 or 3 mins rolling on ground, & only others were on me, by then. God knows, what could have happened. (him).

So Knife defence... I was in fight mindset which exploded to turbo levels, training & study of the FEAR & mental side of this & NLP, taught me to use this, & I wanted to rip his bollox off too, & then I had 2 seconds to see bottle become a stabbing weapom. From that point of view, my chances were much better & I had my then as Bob Spours NLP & Combatives book is called , I had NO FEAR NO DOUBT he had to be done in. & he was.... of course I had a just about passed the test by skin of teeth when others blasted into me to escape. I certainly did not expect to put al them out... as I said I was f**Ked... just a question of how much I was going to let then "f**K me up.

So lets consider this broken spiked bottle, (for the others) as a successful knife/edged weapon survival for me (note I said survival... not defense) .

Now... take away fact I was 1. In "State" to castrate him for sucker punching me twice in eye.... so Assume I was in relaved but alert state. No 2 Remove fact fight was on for 5 secs or less, before eye stab. so assume I am going to get Knife attacked from a cold start No 3. 2 secs for hell when I see him grab bottle smash it, etc.. fear then turning to kill mode.. remove that.. assume no seeing bottle or knife for a 1.5 - 2 seconds.. & remove I for sure (re geoff thomspon stuff clicking in my head the milli second) I knew what I had to do & how to empower myself to do him as I had no choice. so lets assume I had none of the material studied, visualized in previous years & trained...
assumption being I no clue what to do , or a weak hope pleading or something for mercy would have stop it...

Do you think I would have dodged 2 very targeted stabs/slashed to my eyes & reacted to get inside trap arem on 3rd slash, as I struck him at same time & beat into him like wild animal??? (knowing too, there was a no win situation of 4 - 5 others to face too, which is not good for the confidence... lol!)

Would I have still survived, or still done a " knife defence" or would i have had eye ball punctered (blind) & face slashed up, & got a severe beating on the ground?

I while I cannot say 100% as we do not know, if it happens ever for real again under the assumed conditions, but I think if I am brutal honest which I am about these things, odds are he would have cut me to bits & I blind in 1 or 2 eyes. or dead... I ll be glad to tell you, if I live!! ;-)

Deviate to Guns a minute...

It is almost impossible to remove a gun KM style... assuming dude does not want to kill you as he can shoot you from a few meters+ away kill or wound, esp if trained, without having to put gun to your face, like rubber gun krav maga training.

But if dude wants to do a gun threat, not kill you there or uses gun to hold you up, or.. say take you hostage, or rob you & he is trained in the basics of combat hand gun..

9/10 9.9/10 no way will you do a KM gun removal, as you will not get next or near the gun, he will hold gun in position back near hips & use other non gun hand to move you control you to take you to a secondary location to kill you etc or , get your wallet etc..

make a move you get shot.. gun will be 1.5 or more meters away esp if he pushing you forward with non gun hand & is point shooting training, (round will hit u approx where his index finger at back & down at waist level points to on your body, & he knowing 65% of shots in CQB close in meters range in WWII miss, he probably will shoot off several rounds from hip, before re positoning maybe 2 hand grip & your dead.

No arguments too much there re gun... (not saying I am total 100% in my description but I am not too far off either.) So trained or street trained gun man, you will not get near that gun.. he will keep it back as far as possible from you.

Back to knive attacks... a guy wants to really do you in, say civilain knife attack (forget the military Fairbairn knife kill by suprise attack & etc throat cutting techniques etc). he wants to do you in.. he is not going to let you see the knife.. will be concealed until last minute & will have stabbed you before you know it. (In fact many who got stabbed but knife missed vital spot.. did not know they had been stabbed until fight over & they see their own blood.) Also he may know where to cut you for max lethal fatal wounding. & also he will do more than 1 stab. An guy down the road 6 months about was stabbed 64 times... and knife attack, lets say his conceal until last second knife attack fails or he miss you, & you just happen to fight back , he knows what to do, in order to put you into shock in seconds, (slash your forehead. not fatal but bleeds like hell down into your eyes, ), or 2 trained attacks is slash for wrists, which if you move unarmed out of fight to live instinct, is open season, or very nicely, go low to slash deep back of leg.. potential to cut tendon so your leg loose power or if not.. good cutting spot, arteries there, your going to bleed anyway.. regardless if he gets tendons, arteries or not.. i.e. his fall back training, will soft you enough for neck slash down 45 degrees soft side of neck low down... point is your done for.. either way.

Itay Gil Tactical Krav Maga & you can see, it thinks its on youtube now a live session he did where knife attacked him, he evaded, (using airsoft gas power replica semi auto to exact spec of real glock, BB high power pistol) knife man & pulled BB gun while on retreat to get shot into attackes body.... gun jamed... attacker kept on full force to stabb him chasing him, & while evading stabs, by moving back, left rigt etc... both hand are on semi out.. had to clear jam, free chambre, rack semi auto hand gun, while "attacker" who is trained to stab is really going for it.. by 1/2 sec as attacker knife is inches, Itay get pistol loaded again, & to evade stab throw himself back d as he gets BB shot off, hitting attacker & inches missed the knife. attacker slips.
Here you can see this if you scroll forward to 6mins of this 7 min clip.

The 1st 6 mins is from an actual live day, training regular israeli police how to deal with kinife threats who attack, their goal is to make space, draw gun & shoot. You can see the mistakes too, who got stabbed who did not, & how they improved over I think this 3 day course. (also on www.youtube.com/itaygil there is a good in english demo & does & explains re knife attack.. if your lucky to see knife & got split second to react, that is your one & only chance. (Thats him... not us!!! re his real world experience. we might not pull it off, as easy as he can!) The clip below is very good, 6 mins see gun jam unexpected, he got to clear jam, both hands needed.. while dude trying to do him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM7hGnW6rhA

Col W.E. Faribairn who was one of founders of Reality Based Self Defense, Combatives. knife defense & knife offence, point shooting & gun removals... (its not an invention of krav maga, it was there 50 years before KM was found... in fact a Cork man Big Pat O Neill was one of original pioneers with Fairbairn. WWII refined alot of their worked based on feed back from what worked & what got people killed.. Alllied Commandos & the more secret S.O.E. Special Operations Exe (the people who went as secret agents undercover into Nazi Europe) now MI6 & USA had OSS which is CIA now.

I have researched this past several months deep into Fairbarin work his books Get Tough, Point Shooting, Knife Fighting, & his American counterpart of WWII Col Rex Applegate "Kill or Be Killed" book. There is much between the lines stuff in there... I tell you there is genius in Fairbairns work & it was all based on over 700 original violent incidents when his officers had hand to hand or gun shoot outs when he was Inspector of Shanghai Police 1920... as was skyes, & Pat O Neill.. It was refined re WWII & constantly updated & measured & studied re live feedback/.

I discovered a paper Fairbairn wrote which he kept private & his son released it to a trusted friend in 1992. (It is rare to find).

Col W.E. Fairbairn Knife Attack Test Results--- Interesting...
Fairbairn tested everything like a scientist.. in arm reach range. meaning attacker with knife slash (knife was a dagger) is close enough so his slashing had with dagger can hit side of your neck.. in his tests...
Defender only saw suprise knife slash coming from fraction of second, defender was a trained experience real world operative & fit. Repeated Knife Attach Vs Knife Defence reaction from trained defender averaged this..

** Knife Attacker Slash with dagger from arms reach approc suprise attck, slash to side of neck. Time it took for him to slash 1/6 of 1 second...

** Trained combat war experience soldier fit physical & trained in combatives, you is alert, expecting an attack, but not sure if knife , punch, or which hand attacker will use.
Attacker Slashes defender sees slash... Defender Reaction time 1/5 of 1 second.

Tests showed Attacker very strong probabily based on this Fairbairn Knife defense test (and it was not an unexpected ambush, or set up like us civilians will get. Soldier was alert & expect some form of attack & was there mentally already.
The knife guy with arm reach range is going to get you with knife... its a fraction of a second.. but the results show the odds very bad for defender

Fairbrains lost paper on this, which i have a copy of.
He concluded there was only 2 reasonable ways of defending against a knife
1, if time (in unlikely case knife man shows knife too early) or defender can make distance, evade or kick knife man stomp push back as he draws gun same moment..is
shoot knife man. Best option but not also available.
2. Fairbrains 2nd method.. was run like hell if you cannot shoot him.
(we will assume there is no other equalizer available like our own dagger etc).

Fairbarin based on WWII feedback & his own street policing experience in 100s incidents, was of belief... no real way (other than shoot or run like hell) of a knife defense. Fairbrain said... any other "Techniques" your going to get cut, & if not stabbed immediate, any defence done.. cut more & more in a few seconds of knife attack & get stabbed to death.

He did recommend a few... probably going get killed but of no options left worth a try but odds not good, was to use low kicks, (similar to clip of Tactical Krav Maga Itay Gil show cops to stomp knife guy back with kick) & perhaps a few kicks may make room to run... that was his findings in a nut shell.

The guy waving knife in your face, shouting etc... is probably not going to do the job, then & I do not see point of even bothering unless your a cops on an arrest job, a KM type defence probably will work, but ya gotta bang knife guy in throat.. a fatal strike maybe..to be sure... he does not stab..before remove knife..

But..civilain.. that happen me in Dundalk once, some looney had a go at me verball got close & pulled out a fished mans /hunter bowie into my face waving it about ranting etc... I was more scared when he was shouting, when he pull blade.. I jumped back a step, & started to laugh as it was sort of funny.. called him a bollox for fun & ran away cracking up laughing.. why bother being Rambo... running was better!

We gear up, & again no way am I claiming his is perfect or our KM is better... Itay Gil is amazing.. but I am not Itay Gil skills level.. (he passed the 1 out of 400, to get into Yamam, & spent 9 years in hostage resuce 3 mission a day... as Yamam is under Border cops, they can kill terrorists on the spot, but they cannot gun down a drug dealer who baracades himself into a house or hostages & this is where the physical hand to hand TKM was used.

But as I said we gear up, & got at it full force you will be very suprised to see the standard KM knife defences fail, most of it fails, the front choke "tuck chin Pluck & knee" move... get a big horse of a lad to a run at you rugby player style & front choke as he ploughs on, your tuck with knee KM move.. you will go head over heals, & he fall with you choke on, (your fooked) or he will stomp you. That is why none of those moves are really taught to the special units... they do not work when done with full power.

You can also see, & I am loading up more video soon, an example of me as a knife attacker my victim is a MMA guy... he told him to do whatever (try not to hit me head) put all to be full on full contact. (I got a few head shots.. they run me bell) up the point was, with foam training knife, I "stabbed" him in head over 11 times & other placs too.

There is some clips of the other drills we do, load up a gas power BB air soft glock replica, they hurt like hell when it you, & you will see, how if someone really tried to turn gun in on you to shoot as you gun remove... all the nice stuff goes out window.
In one clip 2 guys spinning in circle.. "victim is me" attacker owned th BB gun had 40 BBs in it, & he totally tried to shoot me.. KM move did not work, I had to improvise... it looks like he beat me, but not 1 BB hit me, & he was so strong I had to dive to ground to pin his gun hand to ground, & bite his arm until they blew whistle.. was told it was perfect improvison when chaos broke out. (see we all had to take a shot, first to feel the pain, & it put some drive on to ensure no chance of getting shot!)
Krav Maga Training Thailand Video Clips


http://www.youtube.com/kravmagathailand

HammerHeadGym

"fun but pointless?"

I've used this stuff in real situations on the door against bottles and a needle. I came off the better in each scenario. It came close a few times though and my attributes definitely helped. Still, without the training, who knows what might have happened?