Child abuse report - the statistics don't add up.

SirHenryGrattan

The Report by the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse states that the number of children held in Irish Catholic Reformatory Institutions over a sixty year period was 35,000. That’s an average of just under 583 children per year. If we say that 50% of these were physically abused then that’s about 300 physically abused children per year. If we say 10% were sexually abused that’s an average of 6 per year. The child population in Ireland i.e. those under 16 averaged well over a million during this period but let’s round it down to a million. The average rate of child abuse is over 12.3 children per 1,000 children but let’s account for over reporting and say 10 per 1000 which is 10,000 per million.

These figures raise a number of questions. Even if we assume that most children held in Catholic Reformatory Institutions were abused, say 500 per year, that still leaves another 9500 abused children per year that we have not accounted for. Do they matter? Apparently not. They are not entitled to any compensation or a day in court.

The children placed in Catholic Reformatory Institutions were mostly orphans, poor children, displaced children, pregnant teenagers and children convicted of petty crime. Are we to believe that only 0.06% of the child population in Ireland during the period in question fell into these categories? Even if we take a very optimistic view and assume that only half a percent of children needed to be taken into care then we are looking at around 5000 children per year of which 600 were in Catholic institutions. What about the other 4,400? How did they survive? Did the Government or some other organization step up to the plate and take them into care? What about the non Catholic charities? What did they do?

[FONT=&quot]The evidence indicates that the Irish public and the Irish media is focusing all of it’s anger on the Catholic Church whose institutions were responsible for only 5 % of child abuse cases. The fact that the Irish Government and/or charitable institutions such the Protestant churches seem to have done little or nothing to provide care for the vulnerable children is not an issue. This would suggest the Irish public were and still are indifferent to child abuse.[/FONT]

Ostrom

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

The Report by the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse states that the number of children held in Irish Catholic Reformatory Institutions over a sixty year period was 35,000. That’s an average of just under 583 children per year. If we say that 50% of these were physically abused then that’s about 300 physically abused children per year. If we say 10% were sexually abused that’s an average of 6 per year. The child population in Ireland i.e. those under 16 averaged well over a million during this period but let’s round it down to a million. The average rate of child abuse is over 12.3 children per 1,000 children but let’s account for over reporting and say 10 per 1000 which is 10,000 per million.

These figures raise a number of questions. Even if we assume that most children held in Catholic Reformatory Institutions were abused, say 500 per year, that still leaves another 9500 abused children per year that we have not accounted for. Do they matter? Apparently not. They are not entitled to any compensation or a day in court.

The children placed in Catholic Reformatory Institutions were mostly orphans, poor children, displaced children, pregnant teenagers and children convicted of petty crime. Are we to believe that only 0.06% of the child population in Ireland during the period in question fell into these categories? Even if we take a very optimistic view and assume that only half a percent of children needed to be taken into care then we are looking at around 5000 children per year of which 600 were in Catholic institutions. What about the other 4,400? How did they survive? Did the Government or some other organization step up to the plate and take them into care? What about the non Catholic charities? What did they do?

[FONT=&quot]The evidence indicates that the Irish public and the Irish media is focusing all of it’s anger on the Catholic Church whose institutions were responsible for only 5 % of child abuse cases. The fact that the Irish Government and/or charitable institutions such the Protestant churches seem to have done little or nothing to provide care for the vulnerable children is not an issue. This would suggest the Irish public were and still are indifferent to child abuse.[/FONT]

I dont think that is a valid calculation, or assumption to make. Lets address that first before going into other accountable institutions - where are you getting 12.3%? What period does it cover? Is it a mean over 60 years? Who compiled the aggregate figures?

Since your subsequent paragraphs proceed on this premise, it is important to qualify in detail

SirHenryGrattan

efla wrote: »

I dont think that is a valid calculation, or assumption to make. Lets address that first before going into other accountable institutions - where are you getting 12.3%? What period does it cover? Is it a mean over 60 years? Who compiled the aggregate figures?

Since your subsequent paragraphs proceed on this premise, it is important to qualify in detail

The figure is based on UK, Australian and American studies. Some respected Canadian reports have estimated rates of child abuse including sexual abuse among young girls at 1 in 3 and among young boys at 1 in 6. So 12.3 PER 1000 NOT 12.3% is very very conservative. Even if you work on a much reduced figure such as 5 per 1000 that's still 5000 per million. Reducing child abuse rates to that level even in modern wealthy secular countries would be seen as making real progress.

The Irish are obsessed with abuse in Catholic institutions but there is little or no mention of incest which given the large size of Irish families during this period was probably quite prevalent.

AmberSolace

There was also the Magdalene asylums. Women, girls, rape and incest victims were in them. All private institutions as well.

Nodin

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

The Report by the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse states that the number of children held in Irish Catholic Reformatory Institutions over a sixty year period was 35,000. That’s an average of just under 583 children per year.

You're misreading the figures. The capacity of Artane alone was some 900

The school housed around 900 boys at any one time and they stayed there until they were 16 years of age. [5] More than 15,000 youngsters passed through the gates of the school from 1871 to its closure in 1966. [6] Subsequently, many allegations of abuse of boys at the school emerged. [7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artane,_Dublin

Riskymove

Nodin wrote: »

You're misreading the figures. The capacity of Artane alone was some 900


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artane,_Dublin

no he has come up with a statistic of "children per year" which i don't understand at all

i.e. 35,000 by 60 years to get 583

what relevance has that stat?

Nodin

Riskymove wrote: »

no he has come up with a statistic of "children per year" which i don't understand at all

i.e. 35,000 by 60 years to get 583

what relevance has that stat?

O.

I have no clue whatsoever. I might speculate its wishful playing with numbers to make it appear a less horrendous abuse by the church than it was. Presumably we'll be enlightened in due course.

Victor

I think there are problems with the OP numbers. Is 35,000 is the average number at any one time or the total number of admissions(?) over the sixty years. Note that while some children would stay for long periods of 10+ years, some would only stay a few months. Of note, children that were abused tended to be serially abused by more than one abuser.

rant_and_rave

Victor wrote: »

I think there are problems with the OP numbers. Is 35,000 is the average number at any one time or the total number of admissions(?) over the sixty years. Note that while some children would stay for long periods of 10+ years, some would only stay a few months. Of note, children that were abused tended to be serially abused by more than one abuser.

35000 is the TOTAL number of children that went through the industrial schools, reformatories and orphanages in the 60 year period covered by the report. The average annual population in this sector ranged from 6500 in the 40s/50s to 2500 in the 60s to 1800 in 1970 when the Irish Government started to shut them down. Some kids entered the sector at 3 and left at 16 so they would have been counted every year for 13 years. There is a chapter in the Ryan report with numerical tables and detailed figures compiled by the Department of Education which has obviously been read by the BBC and Channel 4.................

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/europe/report+exposes+abuse+aposendemicapos/3157357

"Around 35,000 children went through this system between the 1940s and the 1970s."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8060442.stm

The victims were among 35,000 children who were placed in a network of reformatories, industrial schools and workhouses until the early 1990s.

but not by the home grown fu*kits in the Irish media who seem to lack basic numeracy and literacy skills.

The report's on-line. Those of you live in the bogs of Western Ireland and are sending your posts by carrier pigeon to a mate in Dublin who enters them on boards.ie are excused. There rest of you can get off your lazy arses and READ the report before posting mindless drivel on this forum.

AmberSolace

106. Dr. O'Connell asked the Minister for Education what percentage of [] pupils leaving industrial schools in the years 1966 and 1967 possessed
(a) the leaving certificate,
(b) the intermediate certificate,
(c) the group certificate, and
(d) the primary certificate.

Mr. Colley: Many of the children in industrial schools are discharged when still too young to have reached the standard required to sit for even the primary certificate and to quote the percentage figures sought by the Deputy would therefore be misleading. The relevant numbers are as set out below.

Years ended 30th June 1966 1967

(1) Total number of children discharged 660 (1966) 621 (1967)


7,300 children - leave of absence from industrial schools 1965

I think there were at most times between 1945 to 1965 about 6,000 permanent residents in the industrial schools.

AmberSolace

There were 1,527 boys and 1,567 girls in the industrial schools on the 30th September, 1965. Of these, 1,293 boys and 1,308 girls were committed by the courts, 25 boys and 96 girls were resident in the schools on a voluntary basis and 209 boys and 163 girls were placed in the schools under section 55 of the Health Act, 1953. Of the children committed by the courts, 1,069 boys and 1,288 girls were not convicted of any offence, 149 boys and 12 girls were convicted of offences other than non-attendance at school and 75 boys and eight girls were committed under the School Attendance Act, 1926.

Do these figures ad up ?

1,527 + 1,567 = 3094

FIGURES from link 41 Institutions -

1. Upton 300
2. Artane 830 ---- 1130
3. Letterfrack 190 ---- 1320
4. Salthill 145 ---- 1465
5. Tralee 150 ----1615
6. Glin 220 ---- 1835
7. Ferryhouse 200 ---- 2035
8. Passage west 80 ---- 2135
9. Killarney 50 ---- 2185
10. Kilkenny 186 ---- 2371
11. Drogheda 150 ---- 2521
12. Cappoquin 75 ---- 2296
13. Rathdrum 110 ---- 2406
14. Cavan 100 ---- 2506
15. Clonakilty 180 ---- 2686
16. Mallow 80 ---- 2766
17. Sundays well 200 ---- 2966
18. Booterstown 96 ---- 3052
19. Goldenbridge 207 ---- 3259
20. Lakelands 110 ---- 3369
21. Whitehall 100 ---- 3469
22. Loughrea 100 ---- 3569
23. Ballinasloe 100 ---- 3669
24. Clifden 140 ---- 3809
25. Lenaboy 88 ---- 3897
26. Killarney 98 ---- 3995
27. Pembroke Alms 85 ---- 4080
28. Kilkenny girls 130 ---- 4210
29. St. George 170 ---- 4380
30. St. Vincents 180 ---- 4560
31. Newtownforbes 240 ---- 4800
32. Dundalk 100 ---- 4900
33. Westport 117 ---- 5017
34. Ballaghdereen 100 ---- 5117
35. Benada Abbey 106 ---- 5123
36. Cashel 125 ---- 5248
37. Dundrum Tipperary 80 ---- 5328
38. Waterford 200 ---- 5528
39. Moate 102 ---- 5630
40. New Ross 100 ---- 5730
41. Wexford 146 ---- 5876

rant_and_rave

AmberSolace wrote: »

I think there were at most times between 1945 to 1965 about 6,000 permanent residents in the industrial schools.

OK. I give up. Some people are just not numerate.

EXAMPLE.

1945 is year zero. 6000 children aged 1 enter the industrial school system.

20 years later(1965) 6000 young adults aged 21 leave the industrial school system.

What is the average annual population of the industrial schools system over 20 years? Answer 6000. How many children have gone through the system in 20 years? Answer 6000.

Gettit? Hint. You count the same 6000 people every year.

rant_and_rave

AmberSolace wrote: »

There were 1,527 boys and 1,567 girls in the industrial schools on the 30th September, 1965.

Do these figures ad up ?

1,527 + 1,567 = 3094

Your previous post.

I think there were at most times between 1945 to 1965 about 6,000 permanent residents in the industrial schools.

3094 != 6000.

Let's move on shall we and talk about other numbers such as the fact that the Ryan Commission received around 2000 complaints from residents of the industrial school system but 14000 people are being compensated. How did 2000 turn into 14000?

AmberSolace

rant_and_rave wrote: »

Your previous post.

I think there were at most times between 1945 to 1965 about 6,000 permanent residents in the industrial schools.

3094 != 6000.

Let's move on shall we and talk about other numbers such as the fact that the Ryan Commission received around 2000 complaints from residents of the industrial school system but 14000 people are being compensated. How did 2000 turn into 14000?

In the Dail figures I added up I got almost 6000 (5876) yet the figures given in the Dail by a minister for that year was 3094. Obviously he wasn't counting the Health Board children or children 'voluntarily' in the schools.

The Commission can only deal with people who have a Detention Order - Detention Orders are only given by District Courts. Then there's the Health Board children again. And Judge/Justice Laffoy was going to speak to all the people but the government put the kibosh on that saying it would take a decade so she resigned and Judge Ryan took over and picked a certain amount of institutions to 'investigate' and from those institution he picked a few of the people who were in them to appear before the Investigation Committee. There was also the Confidential Committe. I think the original number of applicants to the commission when Laffoy was there was over 3000.

AmberSolace

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]The evidence indicates that the Irish public and the Irish media is focusing all of it’s anger on the Catholic Church whose institutions were responsible for only 5 % of child abuse cases.

Wasn't the commission only inquiring into catholic run institutions?

You can hardly blame the media or the public for focusing on the abuse of children in catholic run institutions when the report itself deals only with abuses in the institutions that were catholic run.

Graces7

Thank you for this thread

Researching re the history of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and seeking figures re abuse therein.

As far as this is concerned every child who was in one of these Gulags was abused in some way, after mostly being orphaned or dumped etc. Thus already in great trouble and hardship.

So that makes 35,000 primary victims

Add to that the knock on effect on their familes and the toll is even higher of course. Many now are caring for aged relatives greatly damaged in these hell holes. And are suffering thus themselves..

Wondering if there has been any work done on correlating suicides and mental illness, crime rates, unemployment among former inmates.

NB Limiting research to the RCC here. As do the reports.

amen

that still leaves another 9500 abused children per year that we have not accounted for

most people are not abused by priest. Most are abused by family member(parents) or friends of family. That could account for your other 9,500 missing children.

I bet you could walk into any town in Ireland today and find abused children.

SirHenryGrattan

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you for this thread

Researching re the history of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and seeking figures re abuse therein.

As far as this is concerned every child who was in one of these Gulags was abused in some way, after mostly being orphaned or dumped etc. Thus already in great trouble and hardship.

So that makes 35,000 primary victims

Add to that the knock on effect on their familes and the toll is even higher of course. Many now are caring for aged relatives greatly damaged in these hell holes. And are suffering thus themselves..

Wondering if there has been any work done on correlating suicides and mental illness, crime rates, unemployment among former inmates.

NB Limiting research to the RCC here. As do the reports.

All the information you need is in the Ryan Report. Start with that.

About 7000 women were compensated by the Redress Board. 374 witnesses reported incidences of physical and/or sexual abuse. So 5% of the girls resident in industrial schools were physically or sexually abused and physical abuse includes corporal punishment which was legal.

Hence your assertion that 35,000 children were abused is totally inaccurate.

There were 128 reports of sexual abuse. So about 1% of girls were sexually abused.

The SAVI report tells us that around 20% of all girls in modern Ireland experience sexual abuse by the age of 21. That compares to 1% in the Girls Industrial Schools. 20% Vs 1%. Fact. Girls in modern Ireland are much more likely to be sexually abused than those girls who were residents of Industrial Schools run by Nuns.

The Ryan reports states that:

"One hundred and twenty seven (127) witnesses identified 188 people about whom there were one or more reports of sexual abuse in relation to 35 Schools". 23 of the people identified were Nuns. Remember, all of the statements made to the CICA were unsubstantiated. None of the allegations had to be proved. Only one Nun, Nora Wall, was ever convicted of child sexual abuse and that verdict was overturned as the alleged victim and witness later admitted lying to the Court.

Some of the religious orders such as the Mercy Sisters who ran girls industrial schools also ran networks of secondary schools throughout Ireland, some of which took boarders. There have been no allegations of sexual or physical abuse at these schools despite the fact that many Nuns were frequently rotated between secondary schools and industrial schools. It is quite likely that most of the allegations of sexual abuse against Nuns are false, being motivated by spite or greed. Residents compensated for physical AND sexual abuse received higher payments.

SirHenryGrattan

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you for this thread

Researching re the history of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and seeking figures re abuse therein.

As far as this is concerned every child who was in one of these Gulags was abused in some way, after mostly being orphaned or dumped etc. Thus already in great trouble and hardship.

So that makes 35,000 primary victims

Add to that the knock on effect on their familes and the toll is even higher of course. Many now are caring for aged relatives greatly damaged in these hell holes. And are suffering thus themselves..

Wondering if there has been any work done on correlating suicides and mental illness, crime rates, unemployment among former inmates.

NB Limiting research to the RCC here. As do the reports.

Given the harsh poverty in Ireland that lasted up to the 1970s perhaps you would like to suggest some ways in which single parent families could have survived given the almost total absence of state benefits for lone parents.

Most of the children "warehoused" in industrial schools came from dysfunctional or abusive families or were the offspring of unmarried mothers who had no source of income. Most of those children were better off in industrial schools than living in dire poverty with abusive or dysfunctional parents. In Britain, one child dies every week as a result of injuries inflicted by abusive parents. How many children died in the industrial schools? None that I know of.

Industrial schools existed because there was no alternative in a poor country like Ireland. Industrial schools began to disappear once standards of living began to rise in the 60s and 70s.

looksee

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Given the harsh poverty in Ireland that lasted up to the 1970s perhaps you would like to suggest some ways in which single parent families could have survived given the almost total absence of state benefits for lone parents.

Most of the children "warehoused" in industrial schools came from dysfunctional or abusive families or were the offspring of unmarried mothers who had no source of income. Most of those children were better off in industrial schools than living in dire poverty with abusive or dysfunctional parents. In Britain, one child dies every week as a result of injuries inflicted by abusive parents. How many children died in the industrial schools? None that I know of. Industrial schools existed because there was no alternative in a poor country like Ireland. Industrial schools began to disappear once standards of living began to rise in the 60s and 70s.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0531/1224271503729.html

wolfpawnat

AmberSolace wrote: »

There were 1,527 boys and 1,567 girls in the industrial schools on the 30th September, 1965. Of these, 1,293 boys and 1,308 girls were committed by the courts, 25 boys and 96 girls were resident in the schools on a voluntary basis and 209 boys and 163 girls were placed in the schools under section 55 of the Health Act, 1953. Of the children committed by the courts, 1,069 boys and 1,288 girls were not convicted of any offence, 149 boys and 12 girls were convicted of offences other than non-attendance at school and 75 boys and eight girls were committed under the School Attendance Act, 1926.

Do these figures ad up ?

1,527 + 1,567 = 3094

FIGURES from link 41 Institutions -

1. Upton 300
2. Artane 830 ---- 1130
3. Letterfrack 190 ---- 1320
4. Salthill 145 ---- 1465
5. Tralee 150 ----1615
6. Glin 220 ---- 1835
7. Ferryhouse 200 ---- 2035
   
8. Passage west 80 ---- 2135
9. Killarney 50 ---- 2185
10. Kilkenny 186 ---- 2371
11. Drogheda 150 ---- 2521
12. Cappoquin 75 ---- 2296
13. Rathdrum 110 ---- 2406
14. Cavan 100 ---- 2506
15. Clonakilty 180 ---- 2686
16. Mallow 80 ---- 2766
17. Sundays well 200 ---- 2966
18. Booterstown 96 ---- 3052
19. Goldenbridge 207 ---- 3259
20. Lakelands 110 ---- 3369
21. Whitehall 100 ---- 3469
22. Loughrea 100 ---- 3569
23. Ballinasloe 100 ---- 3669
24. Clifden 140 ---- 3809
25. Lenaboy 88 ---- 3897
26. Killarney 98 ---- 3995
27. Pembroke Alms 85 ---- 4080
28. Kilkenny girls 130 ---- 4210
29. St. George 170 ---- 4380
30. St. Vincents 180 ---- 4560
31. Newtownforbes 240 ---- 4800
32. Dundalk 100 ---- 4900
33. Westport 117 ---- 5017
34. Ballaghdereen 100 ---- 5117
35. Benada Abbey 106 ---- 5123
36. Cashel 125 ---- 5248
37. Dundrum Tipperary 80 ---- 5328
38. Waterford 200 ---- 5528
39. Moate 102 ---- 5630
40. New Ross 100 ---- 5730
41. Wexford 146 ---- 5876

Totally OT but where in Passage was the Ind school.

Oh and a member of my family that was in Artane said that often they would have more kids than they were supposed to! So those numbers could just estimates.

baalthor

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

What about the non Catholic charities? What did they do?
charitable institutions such the Protestant churches seem to have done little or nothing to provide care for the vulnerable children is not an issue.

If you were in any way familiar with Irish history you would realise that the Catholic Church did everything in its power to prevent Catholic children from being raised by non-Catholics. No way would Protestant charities be allowed to take in Catholics. To be blunt, it was infinitely preferable from the Church's point of view for a Catholic child to be battered around a Christian Brothers school than to be raised by Protestants in a nice middle class home. Protestant orphanages/institutions were for Protestants only.

That's why even today there are separate organisations for Catholic and Protestant adoption.

That said, the Protestant insititutions also have a case to answer as to how they treated their residents.

AmberSolace

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Given the harsh poverty in Ireland that lasted up to the 1970s perhaps you would like to suggest some ways in which single parent families could have survived given the almost total absence of state benefits for lone parents.

Most of the children "warehoused" in industrial schools came from dysfunctional or abusive families or were the offspring of unmarried mothers who had no source of income. Most of those children were better off in industrial schools than living in dire poverty with abusive or dysfunctional parents. In Britain, one child dies every week as a result of injuries inflicted by abusive parents. How many children died in the industrial schools? None that I know of.

Industrial schools existed because there was no alternative in a poor country like Ireland. Industrial schools began to disappear once standards of living began to rise in the 60s and 70s.

Industrial schools were set up to combat the living conditions of the 19th. century. Your post implies that the dire poverty that existed in Ireland during the 19th. century only abated in the 1960s and 1970s.

In fact the industrial schools were being phased out by the British but Ireland post-independence decided to continue with them as the new rulers were in thrall to the Church. The industrial schools were lightly regulated and only two nuns were officially sacked for abuse throughout the existence of the schools in Independent Ireland.

The Ryan report which you mentioned concludes that children were neglected by the religious orders, that they were starved and beaten and raped, it says children were living in conditions of pervasive fear, fear that they would be physically assaulted, fear that they would be sexually assaulted. It says children's education and health was neglected. It says the inspection system by the State was very light in most respects

The startling conclusion is that the religious orders were dysfunctional, abusive and criminally neglectful.

The actual reason that the industrial schools closed is more likely to do with the judiciary asserting their independence from the government and the religious orders.

This is an extract from the Ryan report:
A Departmental memo of 13th September 1955 referred to a complaint from Fr Reidy that no boys were being committed by Justice McCarthy58 to the Reformatory until the boy had been before the court for the fourth time. The memo continues:

As a result of this allegation to the Minister, together with the allegation that the District Justices generally were not carrying out the law sufficiently strictly in this regard, the Department instituted an inquiry into committals during the years 1953 and 1954. This inquiry found that in the Dublin Children’s Court during that period, of the total commitments of boys to the Reformatory, 23.33% were made on their first offence, 24% on their second, 29.33% on their third, 13.33% on their fourth, 2.67% on their fifth and 5.34% on the sixth or more than sixth offence.

On 18th May 1965, the Resident Managers Association took the unusual course of writing to the Minister for Justice to express their disquiet at ‘the set-up in the Children’s Court’. They said that they would ‘welcome an investigation into the present system under which the School Attendance Act is being applied ‘and asked the Minister to review a deputation to discuss the matters concerning them. The reply dated 25th May1965 from the Minister (Brian Lenihan BL) declined to meet a deputation because the subject of discussion would have been the exercise of a judge’s function. The reply continued:

On the other hand, it seems to me that it would be open to you to write to the District Justice [Carr] and ask him if he would meet you for a general discussion. But may I suggest that your letter should make it quite clear that what you wish to do, is to bring to his notice certain problems that arise in the Schools and knowledge of which would, you think, be valuable to him in exercising his discretion in the committal of children. And if I might offer (in confidence and with the intention of being helpful to you) a further word of advice, it would be to say nothing whatsoever that might seem to mean that you thought the School Attendance Officers in Dublin are not being treated fairly by the Courts. In the disputes that have arisen between them and the Court, I myself have no doubt that the District Justice has been fully justified and indeed has shown more forbearance than could reasonably have been expected of him.

(Unfortunately we have no information with which to explain the loose threads left hanging in this extract; in particular, we do not know whether there was a meeting with the District Justice.)

At a time of skirmishing around a claimed fee increase, a Department of Education official wrote a memo for the Minister in June 1964, which stated:

Managers constantly bemoan the fact that there are insufficient committals to make their schools economical, and this they attribute to the abuse, by District Justice, of the Probation Act. Many Managers feel that the Department should use its position to do something about this. But the Minister could hardly be expected to do anything that could be construed as interfering with the Justiciary (sic) and there is no way to compel courts to resort to committal in preference to the Probation Act.

Moreover, the view of the Department is that thinking both here and abroad is against long term detention in institutions which are situated in rural areas and are not equipped for psychiatric treatment, or the training of children from urban areas. In general, with the exception of Artane, they lack any kind of after-care or organisation. It is because the courts feel that the industrial schools do not achieve their object that as a result of pressure from the Department for Justice a new place of detention on modern lines is being set up to deal with youthful offenders committed for short periods. In any event it would be well to bear in mind that the Schools exist for the children and not vice–versa.’

It is significant that District Justices McCarthy (1941-57), and Kennedy (1968-83), who were the Dublin Children Court Justices for most of the period 1943-83, had expressed what might be characterised as somewhat critical views of the schools, while finding it unavoidable to commit many children to them. District Justices O’Riain and Eileen Kennedy were also known for the fact that they paid visits to the schools so that they knew something about conditions in the schools to which they were making committals. In particular, we have been told by her court clerk that District Justice Kennedy spent two or three days each year making personal visits to schools.

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/05-02.php

choppermann

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Most of the children "warehoused" in industrial schools came from dysfunctional or abusive families or were the offspring of unmarried mothers who had no source of income. Most of those children were better off in industrial schools than living in dire poverty with abusive or dysfunctional parents. In Britain, one child dies every week as a result of injuries inflicted by abusive parents. How many children died in the industrial schools? None that I know of.

I find the above statement very troubling.
I was dumped into a childrens home in the late 60's and I certainly was not better off.
I spent a miserable number of years there and was treated terribly and in the worst way imaginable.
You truly have no idea what it was like to live in a constant state of fear and anxiety at a very young age.

Duke Leonal Felmet

I really don't get what the outcome of this thread is meant to be. It's like a holocaust thread that claims 'only' 2m Jews were killed instead of 6m, as if that is any less shocking.

Lefticus Loonaticus

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Given the harsh poverty in Ireland that lasted up to the 1970s perhaps you would like to suggest some ways in which single parent families could have survived given the almost total absence of state benefits for lone parents.

Most of the children "warehoused" in industrial schools came from dysfunctional or abusive families or were the offspring of unmarried mothers who had no source of income. Most of those children were better off in industrial schools than living in dire poverty with abusive or dysfunctional parents. In Britain, one child dies every week as a result of injuries inflicted by abusive parents. How many children died in the industrial schools? None that I know of.

Industrial schools existed because there was no alternative in a poor country like Ireland. Industrial schools began to disappear once standards of living began to rise in the 60s and 70s.

Err, the catholic church discriminated against single mothers and by way of their power over the state routinely had their children abducted into industrial schools. The mother and child bill that was shot down, etc etc.

The children warehoused in these places did not come from dysfuntional families, they came from under priviledged families that were easy targets for the preying church which needed as many children as possible.

Why? Because the church was getting paid per head of child population by all the knights of saint columbanas and opus dei heads that were controling the department of education. Not to mention all the judges that were involved too.

Have you even read the ryan report? Clearly you have not.

Your above statement saying that it was all normal and theres nothing to worry about is about as sickening as some nazi apologist claiming the jews didnt get it so bad at all.

The catholic church, because of its cronies in positions of power, has gotten away scott free with the most appaulling human rights abuses since the famine. They are as scummy as the scummiest scum that scums on scum and we havent even gotten started on the magdalane laundry issue yet, which is gonna be another horror story when an inquiry publishes its findings.

I urge people to vote against the parties that still have links with right wing organizations such as knights of columbanas and opus dei. These parties are Fianna Fail and Fine Gael.

AmberSolace

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Totally OT but where in Passage was the Ind school.

Oh and a member of my family that was in Artane said that often they would have more kids than they were supposed to! So those numbers could just estimates.

It was called Mount St Joseph's. Passage West Cork Co. Cork and run by the Sisters of mercy.

http://www.passagewestmonkstown.ie/passageintime.asp