Car dealers know more despite all evidence

Matt Simis

Just spoke to a dealer, considering straight swap potential of the Phaeton.

While attempting to downplay the Phaeton's value by quoting V6 pricing (ignoring the fact the V6 is the budget model and this is a top end V10), one thing led another until he announces
"well you know what platform the Phaeton is shared with right?"
Being the fanatical pre-purchase car researcher I am, of course replied "yeah, the Bentley Flying Spur and it share a platform".

He laughed and said, "no thats just marketing, its based on the Skoda Superb" and he has had this conversion "many times".

Obviously, I said that's not correct, but he was adamant of the following:
-The purpose built Glass Factory the Phaeton and Bentley are made in, side by side, was built to "upskill workers" and build brand image, despite the fact they could have used some Skoda factory
-The length and wheelbase are 40mm different on the Bentley therefore that "proves" its not the same
-"The monocoque on the Bentley is 100% unique, it isnt based on any VAG platform sharing"
-VWs Flagship car is based on their daughter companies, Skoda, Superb Platform and this is hidden via to marketing and misinformation.
(note for people that skip important text, all the above are false statements)

He suggested I go do a Google search then send him a mail in the morning with an "opps you were right" in it. His words. So, admittedly annoyed, I went and searched it and found:

Reality wrote:

-Mk1 Skoda Superb is based on the Passat B5 platform, specifically the Typ 3U, built on the China market only LWB Passat, "platform PL45+"
-Mk2 Skoda Superb is based on the VAG B6 platform.
B6 cars include the A4 and newer model Passats. Next up in size is C Platform (A6, Allroad etc) then bigger again, D Platform:

-Phaeton, A8 and Flying Spur are "full size" D Platform based (specifically the VW and Bentley are D1, a steel version of the VW/Audi D3 Aluminum Platform)

Ignoring the quite apparent physical size difference of D ("full size") platform cars vs B ("mid size"), there is nearly 1000kg weight delta too. How he visualises this extra ton weight somehow shoehorned into the smaller, lighter, weaker platform is a mystery. No one (else) has ever suggested the Superb and Phaeton share anything, anywhere on the planet (well, Internet) before, zero data to back up anything he said, yet he suggests I need time with Google..


What amazes me was how calm and absolutely positively sure he was about something that mere seconds of searching online completely and utterly disproves. Did he really believe what he was saying, do people still readily accept what a car salesman says as fact or was he just seeing how annoyed he could make a car owner by pushing all the right buttons?
This is no small time dealer either (seemingly), he claims to have sold €4.2m (I assume he said 4.2 and not "42") worth of cars, his stock currently includes a bunch of EUR120k+ Aston Martins, Bentley's and Audis, plus lots more. Massive € in stock.

bladebrew

:eek:

might i recommend you avoid this garage!
i saw your car (i assume it was yours) at the almc show in city north a few weeks back,it wouldnt remind me of a skoda superb!

unless he was trying to make you believe your car is a skoda underneath and therefore not worth as much,i have no idea where he got this idea from!

alexmcred

Prob trying to downplay the value of your car Matt. Sound like a right d**khead as well tbh

Big Nasty

Skoda Superb is same platform as A6 / Passat - no?

Matt Simis

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Skoda Superb is same platform as A6 / Passat - no?

Thats what I thought (and said to him), but apparently as in my link its "only" a smaller (but stretched) B Platform (Passat, A4) vs C on the A6.

Big Nasty

Matt Simis wrote: »

Thats what I thought (and said to him), but apparently as in my link its "only" a smaller (but stretched) B Platform (Passat, A4) vs C on the A6.

Sorry Matt, long post syndrome and all that!

Just goes to show though how obvious it would be that a Phaeton would not be on the same platform. I mean at a glance the old Superb and the old Passat are very similar cars, even to a novice. How could a VAG dealer try to tell you that a Phaeton was built on this platform?

The way I always looked at it (until I was very recently educated) was:

A8 > Phaeton
A6 > Passat > Superb
A3 > Golf > Octavia > Ibiza

Drummerboy08

There's always one. Always. It doesnt matter what business it is - motors, music, vegetables. There is always one person who is always right.

I suppose when it comes to cars, every man who calls himself a man thinks he knows it all. They all come out of of the woodwork when it comes to motors! This forum is proof of it! Some of the advice and statements i've seen made on here are frightning.

In saying that, any salesman who claims that a Phaeton is built on the same platform as a Superb sounds like a bit of a twat.

Padraig Mor

I reckon anyone arguing about Phaetons with our Matt is on a hiding to nothing!

TomMc

Matt Simis wrote: »

What amazes me was how calm and absolutely positively sure he was about something that mere seconds of searching online completely and utterly disproves. Did he really believe what he was saying, do people still readily accept what a car salesman says as fact or was he just seeing how annoyed he could make a car owner by pushing all the right buttons?

May be he should enter politics, that's par for the course with them. If they say something often enough soon they start to believe their own hype, bull or stupidity. The adage of never argue with a fool, because they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience, applies.

I don't think he was playing dumb, as it would only make someone look clueless (which he obviously is) and unprofessional. I'm sure when you conversed with him on the cars finer points it would be obvious you are not some brainwashed badgehead but actually someone with a deep passion for the mechanics, engineering and technology in their cars. In a way most VAG fanboys couldn't even appreciate let alone comprehend.

If he wanted to knock the cars value he wouldn't have to go this route. The current climate is all he needs to make a strong case for the car been worth X rather than Z. After all higher-end used cars are only worth what someone will actually pay for them, not a predefined book value.

alias no.9

It's typical dealer crap, I had a dealer giving me a trade in price one day. He said that it would be better if it was a diesel, when I pointed out that it was in fact a diesel (with obvious badging), his tune changed to oh the diesels aren't very good in this model.

rocknchef

simple Answer how many golf bags can you fit in the boot of the phaeton

only kidding what a knob take it your not going back there in a hurry. what car were you thinking of trading up for.

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

Just spoke to a dealer

Interesting story. Was it the main man in the dealer / a junior sales person, anybody in another role?

My first impression is that the dealer is trying to BS you to talk down the value of your car. But that's a dangerous tactic if you haven't explored your opponents knowledge yet so as to be confident enough the trick might pay off.

Matt Simis wrote: »

considering straight swap potential of the Phaeton.

What straight swap potential are you thinking of? Newer A6, new(ish) Superb?

Matt Simis

unkel wrote: »

Interesting story. Was it the main man in the dealer / a junior sales person, anybody in another role?

What straight swap potential are you thinking of? Newer A6, new(ish) Superb?

Well its an Dublin based non-Franchised dealer, specialising in Sports and Classic cars, as I said lots of ultra high end stuff with bits in between. I assume he was the main guy, it was a mobile from the site I rang, so it went straight to him. What I was querying was none too exotic (but not a Superb ), a BMW 535d. By no means a better car, but different enough to get me interested. Given current economic climate Im looking trade across to purely mix things up, as opposed upward (down would be nice too!).

On the Phaeton pricing he was vaguely stating he could get them (them referring to the V6) for X in the UK and they dont pay the VRT website figures as he has a pricing from VAG on "them" that he uses in the VRT office. Conveniently specific to have some an intimate knowledge of Phaetons and their VRT off the top of his head. This came up as the figures he was quoting were clearly straight UK pricing no-VRT (on a different model to boot).

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

a BMW 535d. By no means a better car, but different enough to get me interested. Given current economic climate Im looking trade across to purely mix things up, as opposed upward (down would be nice too!).

Don't I know it. Someone out of the blue offered to swap their '03 Passat for my 735. I laughed for a while to myself until I realised the humble Passat would be much easier to actually sell itself. I was nearly ready to seriously consider the offer when the other party decided to hang on to their Passat.

Matt Simis

unkel wrote: »

Don't I know it. Someone out of the blue offered to swap their '03 Passat for my 735. I laughed for a while to myself until I realised the humble Passat would be much easier to actually sell itself. I was nearly ready to seriously consider the offer when the other party decided to hang on to their Passat.

Saved by the bell IMO. Man, I really wouldnt want to go from a 7series to a Passat!

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

Saved by the bell IMO. Man, I really wouldnt want to go from a 7series to a Passat!

I moved on from my 7-series to a 928 S2 early last year

The 7 has been on a loan to several people last year, but this year it hasn't really been used apart from me running the engine every week or other week.

And my mileage on the Porsche is very, very low at the moment and we use the Rover 75 as the main family car. I cannot really justify paying the tax on the Porsche and it might have to go

Matt Simis

unkel wrote: »

I moved on from my 7-series to a 928 S2 early last year

The 7 has been on a loan to several people last year, but this year it hasn't really been used apart from me running the engine every week or other week.

And my mileage on the Porsche is very, very low at the moment and we use the Rover 75 as the main family car. I cannot really justify paying the tax on the Porsche and it might have to go

Bloody sign of the times, basically whats happening with the Phaeton, we drive the Audi Allroad more and its a shameful waste to have it just sitting there. But what can you do?

legs11

One hell of a car that v10 Matt......!

Darragh29

At the end of the day, the car is still a VW, not a Bentley. I think the mistake the dealer made OP was getting into a conversation with you about the car, if he didn't want to do business then I suppose he should have said so. As a mechanic, there is nothing worse than a customer who wants to take up an hour of your time discussing the engineering history of their car. Ok, your man was a salesman, but if he didn't want to do business with you on the terms proposed, then it should really have been discussion over from his point of view, apart from maybe pointing you in the right direction with regard to a sale or trade in...

How much are you looking for for this car anyway?

Saab Ed

Darragh29 wrote: »

At the end of the day, the car is still a VW, not a Bentley. I think the mistake the dealer made OP was getting into a conversation with you about the car, if he didn't want to do business then I suppose he should have said so. As a mechanic, there is nothing worse than a customer who wants to take up an hour of your time discussing the engineering history of their car. Ok, your man was a salesman, but if he didn't want to do business with you on the terms proposed, then it should really have been discussion over from his point of view, apart from maybe pointing you in the right direction with regard to a sale or trade in...

How much are you looking for for this car anyway?

+1

I'm not going to slate the car, infact how could I when its such a fantastic motor but at the end of the day daragh29 is right , its a VW not a Bentley. Who in hell wants to buy a V10 diesel VW. A Phaeton of any sort is probably the worst car in the world you'd want to be selling right now. And no mater what its bloodline is it will always be seen as a glorified Passat and not a baby Bentley. P.S Dont meen to offend and super car by the way P.P.S There is no point filling salesmen with tech jargon , they just see profit and couldnt care less if a car was gold plated only what the gold was worth.

Matt Simis

I get what you guys are saying and thats totally par for the course with the car. However, the sales guy said specifically he didnt care what was on the forecourt and went as far as saying if I turned up with EUR2000 tomorrow he would do the swap over. Im quite conscious of the fact generally people dont want to listen to me (anyone) waffle on, so I didnt, he kept the conversation going with various facts and figures.

On the pricing, I have its advertised at EUR29k, OMSP is EUR42k, the car I was looking to do a straight swap against is advertised by him at around EUR25k, landed import cost from the UK is just over EUR30k if you can find a V10. It was EUR130k in 2004.
So pick a number!

Zube

Saab Ed wrote: »

There is no point filling salesmen with tech jargon , they just see profit and couldnt care less if a car was gold plated only what the gold was worth.

You're missing the point. The salesman was:

a) 100% wrong

b) 100% sure he was right, daring Matt to look it up!

He's so ignorant about cars that he doesn't even know he's ignorant. Would you buy a car off an idiot like this?

I remember asking a VW salesidiot about a Passat model, and he denied that it existed to my face. I had to get his own pricelist from the rack and point it out to him! Who hires these morons?

Matt Simis

Zube wrote: »

I remember asking a VW salesidiot about a Passat model, and he denied that it existed to my face. I had to get his own pricelist from the rack and point it out to him! Who hires these morons?

I was in the VW/Audi Garage in Navan and they didnt know what an Audi Allroad was either.. Though in fairness they did help me out and were professional about it.

unkel

Saab Ed wrote: »

no mater what its bloodline is it will always be seen as a glorified Passat and not a baby Bentley.

By Joe Public maybe and even by an ignorant senior salesperson in a prestige car dealers. But I bet anybody ever owning a Phaeton would beg to differ

bazzachazza

I was in the VW/Audi Garage in Navan and they didnt know what an Audi Allroad was either.. Though in fairness they did help me out and were professional about it.

I stand to be corrected here but I was led to believe that they lost there Audi franchise last year as they only had one showroom and wouldn't/couldn't build a second to split the two marques up.

P.S. just checked www.audi.ie and there is no listing for Audi in Meath.

P.P.S So maybe thats why they don't know about Allroads.

Matt Simis

bazzachazza wrote: »

I stand to be corrected here but I was led to believe that they lost there Audi franchise last year as they only had one showroom and wouldn't/couldn't build a second to split the two marques up.
P.S. just checked www.audi.ie and there is no listing for Audi in Meath.
P.P.S So maybe thats why they don't know about Allroads.

But they have the massive Audi sign outside and about 5 Audi A5s and 1 real nice S5, when I was there!
http://www.commonsroadcars.ie/templates/vw_dealer05/images/premises/lg_Commons_Road_Cars_Ltd.jpg

bazzachazza

From www.audi.ie

There are no dealers in Meath. Please choose from another county nearby

From this page.

http://www.audi.ie/audi/ie/en2/dealers.html

Biro

Either way, yer man is a morán. Arguing it was a Superb because of 40mm difference in the Bentley... If the difference in chassis length was anything to go by then the mk1 Superb couldn't be based on the B5 Passat platform, but it is - a stretched one.
You should go back to him with that info and ask for an apology. Then try and point to an A4 on his forecourt and ask can you have it for the same price as an Octavia, cause they're essentially the same...

TomMc

CRC aren't an Audi main dealer since Western Motors in Drogheda opened up (more or less).

-Chris-

TBH, I'd just tune all the waffle out and see what his numbers are like.

You don't need to respect the salesperson to buy their wares (although it certainly helps).

Big Nasty

Biro wrote: »

Either way, yer man is a morán. Arguing it was a Superb because of 40mm difference in the Bentley... If the difference in chassis length was anything to go by then the mk1 Superb couldn't be based on the B5 Passat platform, but it is - a stretched one.
You should go back to him with that info and ask for an apology. Then try and point to an A4 on his forecourt and ask can you have it for the same price as an Octavia, cause they're essentially the same...

+1

TomMc

The real problem you have is that the car is (in sales terms) something of an orphan. People (car enthusiasts) who are into luxobarges for their technology and engineering are usually only interested when the car is in the >10-20K bracket. They will more or less see out the cars lifespan or at least keep it for several years and know that when they eventually sell, it will be for a very modest amount. In the 30K+ bracket, it is been marketed more at the business executive or corporate suit. They buy cars based on image, percieved status, not ability or underpinnings. And residual values and ease of resale is very much part of the buying criteria as well. However good it is, it looks like a pompous Passat with that morbid colour with a dark interior. If it was in a more classy colour (Aubergine) with a beige/cream interior, the car might just have more of a sense of occasion about it. And the big VW badge (it's actual size) is a bit naff on a luxury car.

You are stuck between a rock and a hard place really. If you want to recoup some funds tied up in it, you are going to have to let it go at a substantial hit. Or swap it with something merely to have a car that is more saleable later on.

If OMSP for a 2004 one is 42K, that is crazy. Yes, the price when new was staggering, but normal rules do not apply for this particular car in this sector and in the current climate.

mumblin deaf ro

If you don't mind me saying so, would you consider changing the photos on your carzone ad? They don't seem worthy of a luxury car.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Volkswagen/Phaeton/V10-TDI/200917192579938/advert?channel=CARS

To be honest, I'm not surprised a dealer had poor knowledge of the car, as they're very rare over here and he probably never sold one before.

.Longshanks.

mumblin deaf ro wrote: »

If you don't mind me saying so, would you consider changing the photos on your carzone ad? They don't seem worthy of a luxury car.................

To be honest i would agree

Kartale

Matt Simis wrote: »

I get what you guys are saying and thats totally par for the course with the car. However, the sales guy said specifically he didnt care what was on the forecourt and went as far as saying if I turned up with EUR2000 tomorrow he would do the swap over. Im quite conscious of the fact generally people dont want to listen to me (anyone) waffle on, so I didnt, he kept the conversation going with various facts and figures.

On the pricing, I have its advertised at EUR29k, OMSP is EUR42k, the car I was looking to do a straight swap against is advertised by him at around EUR25k, landed import cost from the UK is just over EUR30k if you can find a V10. It was EUR130k in 2004.
So pick a number!

While i think the salesman might have been wiser not to argue with you about a car he knew nothing about, i dont think that it is unrealistic that they did not want to swop a car.
How would warranty work here? would garage have to warranty both cars?, perhaps even buy warranty if thats what they do. Service car your swopping for, service your car.
im just saying i can sort of see their side, swopping only really helps you.
im sure even €2000 would not go along way in a garage these days

Matt Simis

TomMc wrote: »

However good it is, it looks like a pompous Passat with that morbid colour with a dark interior. If it was in a more classy colour (Aubergine) with a beige/cream interior, the car might just have more of a sense of occasion about it. And the big VW badge (it's actual size) is a bit naff on a luxury car.

Generally agree with what you are saying, but my car is Met. Black with grey Nappa leather, like most high end cars. There is nothing morbid about it!? The Aubergine, which I considered, makes it look like a bloated E Class Merc, its quite an acquired taste. I really liked the even rarer Heliochrome Blue (a crazy jazz blue) but every single person I consulted said the only colour that "works" on a car this size is Black. This is unfortunately reflected in the choices of colours second hand, nearly 100% of them are Black whether you like it or not.

Regarding the images, its been too dull and raining forever to retake so I thought it best to use those. Dull day photos on a black car look so lifeless, IMO.
However I have a different set of photos, dull weather (though touched up afterwords) and on the original yellow Regs, what about these:


I just briefly looked at A8 photos, everyone I clicked was a car sitting in a crowded carpark with the photo taken too close to the car (so you get that terrible fisheye lens effect). I really wouldnt consider them any great shakes. Everytime I go virtual car shopping I always remember the bright colourful photos from different locals than the boring carpark/front of garage that every single dealer uses. I still remember the Yellow Audi S4 I almost bought (in Ireland), it was photo'd in a kinda construction yard of sorts, from a distance! I cant remember any other ones, even the one I bought.

-Chris-

I don't like the photos with the yellow plates, they'd make me think the car wasn't VRT'd or something (even if you stated in the ad that it was).

The problem I have with your current photos is that the car is parked crooked on the side of a road. It looks like you were dying for a whizz, pulled over in a hurry, did what needed to be done, and then thought "I should probably take some photos while I'm here".

They do need to be re-taken imho, but I very much doubt they're costing you any sales - anyone who's properly interested in that kind of car is going to be willing to travel to see it in the flesh and to drive.

rocknchef

Hey Matt Simis im off to Spain tomorrow if you want I will take the car with me and take all the photos you want and then you can post the add back up:D

Matt Simis

-Chris- wrote: »

The problem I have with your current photos is that the car is parked crooked on the side of a road. It looks like you were dying for a whizz, pulled over in a hurry, did what needed to be done, and then thought "I should probably take some photos while I'm here".

Lol, thats the road right outside my house!
Ill see about new photos weather permitting. Agree on it not costing sales though, someone buying it wants to buy it, its not something there is a lot of alternative choice for.

rocknchef wrote: »

Hey Matt Simis im off to Spain tomorrow if you want I will take the car with me and take all the photos you want and then you can post the add back up:D

Only if you buy it first.

unkel

TomMc wrote: »

The real problem you have is that the car is (in sales terms) something of an orphan. People (car enthusiasts) who are into luxobarges for their technology and engineering are usually only interested when the car is in the >10-20K bracket. They will more or less see out the cars lifespan or at least keep it for several years and know that when they eventually sell, it will be for a very modest amount. In the 30K+ bracket, it is been marketed more at the business executive or corporate suit. They buy cars based on image, percieved status, not ability or underpinnings.

Spot on. Applies to my car too. I bought the 735 when it was 7 years old (for a fraction of the new price) from a company director who had bought the car from the first owner in the UK about 3 years before that.

mumblin deaf ro

Would you consider paying €100 to a photographer who would do good quality photos? On some of the classic car websites people do full thirty picture slideshows for cars that cost less than £5K.

TomMc

http://sis.virtual-showroom.co.uk/(4gdpzy55ypchfsbuojqlqz55)/templates/pearl/stockItem.aspx?clientCode=pearlCustom&mode=search&stockID=7875|291

Even a few interior photos like this one (DIY) would spruce up the ad.

Matt Simis

mumblin deaf ro wrote: »

Would you consider paying €100 to a photographer who would do good quality photos? On some of the classic car websites people do full thirty picture slideshows for cars that cost less than £5K.

Yeah, Ive seen people selling 6 series BMWs with over 200 photos. Put yourself in the buyers seat; Pricing, service history etc are so much more important and I think most buyers would agree. Ive spent too much money in wasteful advertising already, Id be reluctant to put more in.

Im really only looking for a direct swap anyway these days. As TomMC says, the pricing puts it in no mans land, but Im not alone, plenty of other people out there quite willing to swap around, just need to find a car Im interested in.

TomMc wrote: »

http://sis.virtual-showroom.co.uk/(4gdpzy55ypchfsbuojqlqz55)/templates/pearl/stockItem.aspx?clientCode=pearlCustom&mode=search&stockID=7875|291
Even a few interior photos like this one (DIY) would spruce up the ad.

Since thats the same interior on the same car, I think Id be inclined to just, you know, steal the main LCD one. My armrest is different however, its single piece with a factory bespoke Nokia phone hidden in it.

TomMc

I was afraid to say it with so many mods about the place.:D

newbie1001

unkel wrote: »

I moved on from my 7-series to a 928 S2 early last year

The 7 has been on a loan to several people last year, but this year it hasn't really been used apart from me running the engine every week or other week.

And my mileage on the Porsche is very, very low at the moment and we use the Rover 75 as the main family car. I cannot really justify paying the tax on the Porsche and it might have to go

Thats disappointing to read Unkel - you were always the one justifying the large motor tax bill on the big engined cars especially if one does low mileage.

In fact - it was this argument that makes me think about getting a nice big V8!

-Chris-

Matt Simis wrote: »

Since thats the same interior on the same car, I think Id be inclined to just, you know, steal the main LCD one. My armrest is different however, its single piece with a factory bespoke Nokia phone hidden in it.

It's a fairly small pic though, you're better off re-taking yours altogether.

I posted this in "help me sell my car", but it may help you - I went on www.wordpress.com and created a blog at http://02d23384.wordpress.com/. Because it's completely user editable I was able to put up as many pics as I wanted.
If you click on them you can get a big zoomable image.
Any ad I put up from then on had a link to this wordpress website.

Don't know if that's of any use to you...

Matt Simis

Nice idea actually!
I'll see how next week ends, movement is afoot.

unkel

newbie1001 wrote: »

Thats disappointing to read Unkel - you were always the one justifying the large motor tax bill on the big engined cars especially if one does low mileage.

I still have two V8s

Circumstances have changed though. My mileage used to be lower than average and my mileage expenses subsidised my fixed costs (like motor tax)

Now I do most miles in the family car and very few miles in the Porsche - and there's not much mileage expense these days to pay its way. The Porsche is zero depreciation and it is very reliable and mechanically sound, but I'm starting to think that maybe it should go to a more deserving owner who'd get to use it more bring some cash to the empty coffers

Matt Simis

Alright, replaced photos
http://www.adverts.ie/showproduct.php?product=105932

Can only fit 6 photos on Adverts, the rest are here in supersize original format:
http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/mattsimis/Phaeton/Sale%20Photos/

-Chris-

Much Better!! You can really "get into" the car and check it out before you pick up the phone.

One thing - put a link to the photobucket album in the adverts ad.


P.S. George Hook on the TV screen? Love it!

mumblin deaf ro

Huge improvement - best of luck finding a buyer. Looks like a great car.