Californian School expels schoolgirls for being Lesbians

Nerin

Was surfing around looking for news stories for my site when i found this

Short version/TL ; DR =

• Student goes to principal and tells on two classmates/links to their myspace.
• Lutheran school expels two girls for being lesbians.
• They sue.
• Supreme court says its ok for the school to discriminate because it isnt a business.
• Girls Lawyer says this will allow schools to discriminate against anyone as long as they say its on religious grounds.
• Nerin gets angry.

So what are your thoughts on this?
Im pretty annoyed about it.
It was treated like the Boy Scouts of America case, but this isnt a club, this is a school. Either way, i still feel its pretty ****y for adults to treat two young girls like this.

LegacyUser

Basically the law in this country would say the same if a gay or lesbian teacher was let go from the school on the grounds of their lifestyle being against the religious ethos of the school here. I don't think it could apply to a pupil however. If a parent or teacher brought it up as an issue it would go in front of the board of managemnt which in the vast majority has at least one religious personnel on board be that a priest,nun or bishop. Employment and equality law doesn't cover them as there is a legal loophole/exception for employees of religious based workplaces. Both the secondary school and primary school teachers LGBTs are arguing the law.

(b) of Section 37 states that "a religious, educational or medical institution which is under the direction or control of a body established for religious purposes or whose objectives include the provision of services in an environment which promotes certain religious values shall not be taken to discriminate against a person . . . if it takes action which is reasonably necessary to prevent an employee or a prospective employee from undermining the religious ethos of the institution".

http://www.glen.ie/press/gayteachers.html

http://www.asti.ie/pr2007/prjul07.htm#ictu2

http://www.into.ie/text/ROI/LegalAndIndustrialRelations/EmploymentLegislation/EmploymentEqualityAct1998/Section371-INTOSubmission/

KnifeWRENCH

I'm not too sure what Lutheran's believe exactly but if homosexuality goes against their beliefs I don't think there's much point in trying to reason with the principal here. Tbh those girls were better off not going to a school where homosexuality was seen as wrong.

Boston

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

I'm not too sure what Lutheran's believe exactly but if homosexuality goes against their beliefs I don't think there's much point in trying to reason with the principal here. Tbh those girls were better off not going to a school where homosexuality was seen as wrong.

1) If it receives public funding of any form they should be allowed use religion to exlcude people.
2) Those Girls chose to go to that school, it was their decision to make, it should have been theirs to leave.

Nevyn

It is not a state school, it is a private religous school and they can set their own policy.

CaptainSkidmark

i wonder was the headmaster a man or a woman?

Shane_C

Boston wrote: »

1) If it receives public funding of any form they should be allowed use religion to exlcude people.
2) Those Girls chose to go to that school, it was their decision to make, it should have been theirs to leave.

I dunno......
Point 1, definitely, especially in America where there are so many different minorities.
Point 2, not so much, if it is a Lutheran school I would say they have rules against homosexuality so the girls should have known before they joined. Also, there are probably 100 things the school would consider an expellable offence which aren't in the rules and are quite justifiable (this case NOT being one of them).

I have to say I have no sympathy for anyone who posts private images on a public myspace, they are better off in a school which isn't so prejudiced.

anoisaris

Boston wrote: »

1) If it receives public funding of any form they should be allowed use religion to exlcude people.
2) Those Girls chose to go to that school, it was their decision to make, it should have been theirs to leave.

You do realise that in Ireland teachers in schools with a religious ethos and patronage (ie-the majority of schools in the land) can be legally fired if it is deemed they don't fit in with their ethos?????

CaptainSkidmark

Shane_C wrote: »

I dunno......
the girls should have known before they joined.

considering they are only schoolgirls they prob didnt know they were gay until they got a bit older after they joined?

anoisaris

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

I'm not too sure what Lutheran's believe exactly but if homosexuality goes against their beliefs I don't think there's much point in trying to reason with the principal here. Tbh those girls were better off not going to a school where homosexuality was seen as wrong.

so by that argument no gay kid should go to school in this country since it goes against catholic and CoI beliefs?

anoisaris

Shane_C wrote: »

I dunno......
Point 1, definitely, especially in America where there are so many different minorities.
Point 2, not so much, if it is a Lutheran school I would say they have rules against homosexuality so the girls should have known before they joined. Also, there are probably 100 things the school would consider an expellable offence which aren't in the rules and are quite justifiable (this case NOT being one of them).

I have to say I have no sympathy for anyone who posts private images on a public myspace, they are better off in a school which isn't so prejudiced.

Did you read the article?-they were hugging!!

CaptainSkidmark

they had to have owned up to being gay? I seriously doubt they were shown the door becasuse they were hugging.

Plus the article says they were shown the door for being gay, not for hugging!

anoisaris

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

they had to have owned up to being gay? I seriously doubt they were shown the door becasuse they were hugging.

Plus the article says they were shown the door for being gay, not for hugging!

The point was there was nothing indecent about their myspace pages or pics. You "own up" to being guilty of something, their sexuality isn't a crime. One stated she was bisexual, the other unsure!

Aoifums

First I've heard of this. Shocking!

I have to ask, is there any way this could legally happen in Ireland? I'm pretty freaked out here.

CaptainSkidmark

anoisaris wrote: »

The point was there was nothing indecent about their myspace pages or pics. You "own up" to being guilty of something, their sexuality isn't a crime. One stated she was bisexual, the other unsure!

i didnt mean itin the sense that it was a crime!

plus..... IMO i would have kept my mouth shut for the sake of not getting expelled. i would have come out after i finished in the school the shove it in their faces alright lol

anoisaris

Aoifums wrote: »

First I've heard of this. Shocking!

I have to ask, is there any way this could legally happen in Ireland? I'm pretty freaked out here.

I don't think so Aoife, not in Ireland.

spurious

Aoifums wrote: »

First I've heard of this. Shocking!

I have to ask, is there any way this could legally happen in Ireland? I'm pretty freaked out here.

For students, probably not.
For teachers, TECHNICALLY, yes. The Equality Act allows a select group of institutions, including schools to discriminate against staff who do not fit their 'ethos'. Most schools in Ireland are privately-owned.
In practice, I doubt any school would try it, though in fairness, the late Eileen Flynn's case was not 'that' long ago and in some spheres, Ireland has not moved forward at all.

anoisaris

The equal status act 2000 protects a school discriminating against students on religious grounds as far as I know (with some limitations).

spurious

Apologies, that's the Act I meant in relation to teachers.

anoisaris

Oh sorry that was in response to Aoife's question

I.J.

There is no justfication for expelling the girls. Absolutely none. They were there for an education. This is total discrimination and is a complete disgrace. It goes against human rights and is totally unacceptable. If homosexuals can be expelled based on religious views, then anybody who wears two types of cloth should be expelled too.

Marshy

Boston wrote: »

1) If it receives public funding of any form they should be allowed use religion to exlcude people.

Did you mean shouldn't be allowed? Why should they allowed to exclude based on religion if they're in receipt of state funding?

spurious wrote: »

For students, probably not.
For teachers, TECHNICALLY, yes. The Equality Act allows a select group of institutions, including schools to discriminate against staff who do not fit their 'ethos'.

Well I've heard it's still an issue, one male teacher in my school said it's made clear to teachers that being open about their sexual orientation wouldn't be tolerated.

KnifeWRENCH

anoisaris wrote: »

so by that argument no gay kid should go to school in this country since it goes against catholic and CoI beliefs?

Oh don't be ridiculous. :rolleyes:
If it was a private deeply devout Christian school then yes they should be allowed exclude gay students. I 100% disagree with their views but they're still entitled to them. Like I said before, a gay student is much better off not attending a school where homosexuality is seen as a sin. Being honest, I think every student would be better off if they weren't in that type of environment.

Public schools in receipt of state funding and non-denominational schools are a completely different matter. Those institutions should never be allowed exclude students based on sexuality.

Besides, I don't think something like this would happen in Ireland.

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is not a state school, it is a private religous school and they can set their own policy.

Exactly.

anoisaris

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

Oh don't be ridiculous. :rolleyes:
If it was a private deeply devout Christian school then yes they should be allowed exclude gay students. I 100% disagree with their views but they're still entitled to them. Like I said before, a gay student is much better off not attending a school where homosexuality is seen as a sin. Being honest, I think every student would be better off if they weren't in that type of environment.

Public schools in receipt of state funding and non-denominational schools are a completely different matter. Those institutions should never be allowed exclude students based on sexuality.

Besides, I don't think something like this would happen in Ireland.


Exactly.

It's not at all! Look at the context in which the comment was made. Almost every school in this country has a denominational ethos there are multi-d schools but very few non denominational. Most of these are catholic schools so therefore the ethos of their school is catholic and homosexuality is a sin in catholicism. Very, very few gay students in this country have the option to be schooled in a non-religious system (which you suggest they should do).

A school doesn't have to be overtly religious or devout to be a denominational school. Every single religious school in this country is funded to some point by the state whether it is a fee-paying or public. Making up rules based on religious ethos isn't only a luxury afforded to a private school but public too.

And no, It wouldn't happen in Ireland as students are afforded rights under a legislative act.

Boston

anoisaris wrote: »

You do realise that in Ireland teachers in schools with a religious ethos and patronage (ie-the majority of schools in the land) can be legally fired if it is deemed they don't fit in with their ethos?????

Not against students. If you're outside the schools catchment area they don't have to take you, if you're inside it they do (over simplified I know).

Marshy wrote: »

Did you mean shouldn't be allowed? Why should they allowed to exclude based on religion if they're in receipt of state funding?

Yep, I meant shouldn't. The point I was making is that even private schools receive public funding (here anyway). As long as this is the case, I don't believe they should have the right to discriminate against students.

anoisaris

Boston wrote: »

Not against students. If you're outside the schools catchment area they don't have to take you, if you're inside it they do (over simplified I know).



Yep, I meant shouldn't. The point I was making is that even private schools receive public funding (here anyway). As long as this is the case, I don't believe they should have the right to discriminate against students.

Enrolement policies aren't limited to catchment area for example a school here with a protestant/jewish ethos can take a protestant/jewish pupil from outside the area over a local catholic kid and vice vearsa. The areas where equal status are not afforded to pupils are faith based enrolement policies and single sex schools as long as their policy is clearly spelled out.

Cokehead Mother

why didn't they try to fix the girls or whatever instead of sending them away to be educated in a liberal cesspool? i don't really know much about lutherans but it seems like the sort of thing they'd be into.

Tricity Bendix

Lol. Fix.

Shane_C

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

considering they are only schoolgirls they prob didnt know they were gay until they got a bit older after they joined?

touché

anoisaris wrote: »

Did you read the article?-they were hugging!!

No I didn't, I stuck with the summary. In retrospect its kinda funny. Stupid Lutherins getting all worked up over nothing as usual. I still think they are (or were) better off in a different school. It was a blessing in disguise.

LegacyUser

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

Oh don't be ridiculous. :rolleyes:
If it was a private deeply devout Christian school then yes they should be allowed exclude gay students. I 100% disagree with their views but they're still entitled to them. Like I said before, a gay student is much better off not attending a school where homosexuality is seen as a sin. Being honest, I think every student would be better off if they weren't in that type of environment.

Public schools in receipt of state funding and non-denominational schools are a completely different matter. Those institutions should never be allowed exclude students based on sexuality.

Besides, I don't think something like this would happen in Ireland.


Exactly.

I agree completely to everything you say.