Fine Gael's next coalition partner

InFront

Last Monday night Gay Mitchell was on Questions and Answers and seemed to allude to being in favour of Fine Gael and Labour drawing up another pre-election pact type document. This is in line with a wider acceptance that Fine Gael will ask Labour for its support in making up the numbers after the next election.

Personally, I don't believe that FG will be able to go it alone, or with any smaller party than Labour in light of the impending decimation of the Greens á la the PDs. Our only hope would be the emergence of a new PD-type party from FF.

Is there anybody else in Fine Gael or intending to vote for FG who is very uneasy about sharing power with the Labour Party in light of that party's economic perspective during this recession?

Personally, if I'm honest, I dont know if I would actually rather FG sharing power with Labour or Fianna Fail, who at least share our economic philosophy in general.

Ideas?

destroyer

InFront wrote: »

Personally, I don't believe that FG will be able to go it alone, or with any smaller party than Labour

You said it yourself. No other option.

bijapos

FF, FG, Labour, Greens, SF and a small bunch of independents.

The next government will be formed out of whatever permutation of the above is the most desperate and most willing to ditch their principles to get into power.

Pacts or pre-election statements or all the posturing and hitching up of trousers in the world have nothing to do with it.

Grudaire

bijapos wrote: »

FF, FG, Labour, Greens, SF and a small bunch of independents.

The next government will be formed out of whatever permutation of the above is the most desperate and most willing to ditch their principles to get into power.

Pacts or pre-election statements or all the posturing and hitching up of trousers in the world have nothing to do with it.

If a party has only half as many TD's elected as is needed to form a government then you can only expect to see half their policies in place. (Given that they only have half a full mandate for their policies). Such is the nature for a coalition.

It should be FF, and FG - because it would make sense if you look at the two parties. The only problem then is that people might actually choose a party with real differing policies.

ismynametoolong

The way it is looking they could do it on their own or with one or two independents ! I personally would not like to see the Greens holding the balance of power again but then they too will loose seats next time out Gormless for one is a cert to loose out.

InFront

I wouldn't mind seeing the Greens in power with Fine Gael if they actually could make up the numbers. The Green Prty are the chameleons of the Dail, blending themselves in to the outlook of whoever they align themselves with.

They are showing themselves to be a sort of rent-a-crowd.

thebman

I'm not a big fan of the greens after they sold out.

However, I feel the question must be asked which party wouldn't sell out? Who can we trust to hold firm to their policies and not compromise just to get power?

I think almost all the parties are power hungry and the only reason FF and FG won't go into power with each other is because of their fanbases which might crack if they did.

Joey the lips

I am sorry to say I think gay mitchel is a bad politician he comes across arrogant and pompas. The only choice FG have is a cololation with labour but I notice labour keeping stung which might explain gay mitchels arrogance.

thebman

I thought he came across as confident. I'm not looking for a friend. I don't require modesty. I'd rather he was confident in his ability.

I can see that there is something about him that makes him lack charisma, could just be that he is a politician :P

Souljacker

1st choice: Greens
2nd choice: Greens & Independents
3rd choice: Labour

Mainly because the if a coalition is needed the 1st option give FG the most freedom to implement their policies.


I can't see the greens being wiped out anytime soon. Being Green is a way of life which goes way beyond a political idea. The Green Party are only a part of that lifestyle and so people will vote for them regardless.


The PDs were a party set up solely in Ireland as a radical liberal party which proposed radical liberal ideas, which people would have to understand if they wanted to vote PD on principle. In essence it's much easier (mentally) to vote green than it is PD, so people will continue to do it IMHO.

thebman

I think a lot of people voted Green to police FF and because they didn't mind the green agenda not because it was a way of life for them.

Only the hardcore green voters think that way and I don't think there are that many of them that it would safe them in an election.

Souljacker

thebman wrote: »

I think a lot of people voted Green to police FF and because they didn't mind the green agenda not because it was a way of life for them.

Only the hardcore green voters think that way and I don't think there are that many of them that it would safe them in an election.

Do you honestly think the people who voted green expected them to go into coalition with FF?

You’d be surprised how many people are conscious of environmental issues these days and like to be perceived as 'green,' especially those who may not be very politically aware (which sadly would be quite a high percentage). Voting green gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside which voting PD just didn't do.
(that's why I find the comparisons between the 2 parties illogical.)

I would be absolutely astounded if the greens are wiped out in the locals, or even in the next general election. True their core vote is low but their message is one that resonates with the populace and so IMHO they'll outlive some of the current parties in the Dail.

thebman

Souljacker wrote: »

Do you honestly think the people who voted green expected them to go into coalition with FF?

A lot of them did yes. I said they'd sell out for one. Didn't vote for them though. Some members of my family also thought they would and said they'd be better at policing them than PD's and would put forward some green issues but would have no real power so what harm.

You’d be surprised how many people are conscious of environmental issues these days and like to be perceived as 'green,' especially those who may not be very politically aware (which sadly would be quite a high percentage). Voting green gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside which voting PD just didn't do.
(that's why I find the comparisons between the 2 parties illogical.)

I don't think most of those people vote at all TBH.

I would be absolutely astounded if the greens are wiped out in the locals, or even in the next general election. True their core vote is low but their message is one that resonates with the populace and so IMHO they'll outlive some of the current parties in the Dail.

I don't think it does. Green costs money and when money is tight, people aren't looking for that warm fuzzy filling of doing good they want job and financial security.

Sleepy

I've voted green in the past and will most likely be voting Fine Gael next time around. They're socially too conservative for me but as long as Labour are bank-rolled by the unions I can't countenance them being anywhere near power.

Was just wondering this evening actually - were Fianna Fail always as cosy with the unions as they have been for the last few decades or was this a habit they picked up while in coalition with Labour?

Grudaire

thebman wrote: »

I don't think it does. Green costs money and when money is tight, people aren't looking for that warm fuzzy filling of doing good they want job and financial security.

Not being Green costs

Edit: Money, and otherwise

truebluedub

Sleepy wrote: »

I've voted green in the past and will most likely be voting Fine Gael next time around. They're socially too conservative for me but as long as Labour are bank-rolled by the unions I can't countenance them being anywhere near power.

Was just wondering this evening actually - were Fianna Fail always as cosy with the unions as they have been for the last few decades or was this a habit they picked up while in coalition with Labour?

They've been close to the unions since 1989/1990 while in coalition with the PDs. They entered coalition with us in 1992 after CJH resigned.

is_that_so

thebman wrote: »

I think a lot of people voted Green to police FF and because they didn't mind the green agenda not because it was a way of life for them.

Only the hardcore green voters think that way and I don't think there are that many of them that it would safe them in an election.

They depend almost exclusively on transfers. Of their TDs only Trevor Sargeant did well enough in first preferences. The Greens are a port of the soft left for many who like to see themselves as liberal. The potential meltdown could occur if those 2nd, 3rd and higher preferences do not go to the Greens.

On topic the most likely partner will be Labour. Apart from the seats Labour get they've worked together before many times and they can find ways to compromise on policies.

Souljacker

The greens will get an election bounce when they pull the government down in the next general election. The only question is whether Gormely's be at the helm or not.

Grudaire

I don't know, I really think it's a case of mouseland here - We're switching between the white and the black cats, but the parties with policies that might actually cause change (for better or worse) are stuck on the sidelines - occasionally getting in as a coalition partner, but no more than that.

Pride Fighter

I'd prefer a Labour-FF coalition but with a wipeout of the FF frontbench with a new party leader and Eamon Gilmore as Taoiseach.

FG would be a disaster for Ireland like they were in the 80's and would be even worse than the current FF government.

Soldie

I'd hate to see Labour getting involved. I'd imagine Fine Gael would form a coalition with just about anyone if it meant getting into power, though.

thebman

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'd prefer a Labour-FF coalition but with a wipeout of the FF frontbench with a new party leader and Eamon Gilmore as Taoiseach.

FG would be a disaster for Ireland like they were in the 80's and would be even worse than the current FF government.

Worse than FF who have almost bankrupted the country?

That would be feat. FF won't admit to their mistakes so can't possibly fix the problems they've created. It is a must to get them out of power IMO.

Pride Fighter

thebman wrote: »

Worse than FF who have almost bankrupted the country?

That would be feat. FF won't admit to their mistakes so can't possibly fix the problems they've created. It is a must to get them out of power IMO.

Had FG gotten into power in 2007 we would be even worse than now. If they get in next time bye bye 15,000 public servants. The redundancy payments for them will kill the economy stone dead.

Also look back at FG governments, FG governments have been a disaster. The only 2 good governments they ever lead were the 1st and 2nd Inter-Party Governments. They were a disaster in the 80's and we are in similar times to the 80's.

Soldie

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Had FG gotten into power in 2007 we would be even worse than now. If they get in next time bye bye 15,000 public servants. The redundancy payments for them will kill the economy stone dead.

Are you suggesting that facilitating an unsustainable number of public sector workers at an unsustainable wage will do otherwise?

Also look back at FG governments, FG governments have been a disaster. The only 2 good governments they ever lead were the 1st and 2nd Inter-Party Governments. They were a disaster in the 80's and we are in similar times to the 80's.

For want of a better term, Fine Gael's policies - much like Fianna Fáil's - are best described as a clumsy stab in the dark. Having said that, I wouldn't mind someone else wielding the dagger for a change.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I just have this feeling that at this stage Fine Gael and Labour could be like the couple who are going out for years, finally move in together and realise they can't stand each other. It would be so horrific if they were then to fall and Fianna Fail could say "look what happens without us"

I think there's also a slight possibility that if Sinn Fein were to do well Fianna Fail might go into power with them to beat a coalition from the other parties. Sinn Fein might not like their policies but hey they don't much like the DUP either.

Dr Galen

FG and Labour look realistic. Tbh I'd much prefer if for once we had a single party (maybe with a few independents) in power inside of all this coalition jazz. I'd feel it would allow for the creation of some real politics in this country, with parties becomeing more about the ideaology and having a standpoint other than the current carbon copy-ness that we have now.

FG and Labour have worked together before, and did ok. I'd worry a little about the internal power struggles though within the parties, I can see some of the personalities withing both parties becoming unhappy over time with a perceived lack of power/control over policies etc

Dalfiatach

InFront wrote: »

Last Monday night Gay Mitchell was on Questions and Answers and seemed to allude to being in favour of Fine Gael and Labour drawing up another pre-election pact type document. This is in line with a wider acceptance that Fine Gael will ask Labour for its support in making up the numbers after the next election.

Personally, I don't believe that FG will be able to go it alone, or with any smaller party than Labour in light of the impending decimation of the Greens á la the PDs. Our only hope would be the emergence of a new PD-type party from FF.

Is there anybody else in Fine Gael or intending to vote for FG who is very uneasy about sharing power with the Labour Party in light of that party's economic perspective during this recession?

Personally, if I'm honest, I dont know if I would actually rather FG sharing power with Labour or Fianna Fail, who at least share our economic philosophy in general.

You hear this kind of thing a lot. But if everybody who says "I'd like to vote FG but I'm worried about Labour/the Greens/bogeymonsters under my bed" just stopped bellyaching and went out and voted FG, then they wouldn't need coalition partners!

All this guff is designed for one thing - to sow the seeds of doubt, to introduce paralysis, to make people afraid, and to scare them back into the arms of "better the devil ye know" - Fianna Fáil.

On the polls at the minute FG are on 38%. Bertie came within a whisker of an overall majority in 2002 with I think 41.5%. An FG overall majority or an FG minority administration backed by Independents (like the 1997-2002 Government) is within reach, but everyone who would prefer to see that than FG/Lab needs to stop being afraid of their own shadow and just get off yer arse and vote for it.

Fear, doubt and uncertainty is exactly what FF want, it's all they've got left to prop their vote up and stop voters deserting them.

And in most cases these fears are groundless anyway. What was so terrible about Ruairi Quinn as Minister of Finance?

Don't fall for the FF whisper machine. Realise what is going on and the way they are trying to manipulate your vote. Set yourself free of FF's bolloxology.

And if you want FF out but aren't fond of FG, then that's fine, but vote. Vote for a donkey, vote for a looney candidate, heaven help us even vote Labour, but vote - and don't give any preferences to FF. The FF hardcore faithful will come out and vote FF if they had Cromwell on the ticket, so instead of sitting at home b****ing take 10 bloody minutes away from the XBox and go down and vote for somebody (as long as it isn't FF). Not voting is in reality a passive form of support for FF as it artificially boosts their percentage of the vote and hence seats they win.

Sleazus

What about the fact that Labour and Fine Gael don't agree on anything to do with the banks? Surely the weaker party (Labour) entering the coalition would have to concede their own strategy, leading to alienation of voters and even party members if (and when) the stronger party's (FG) strategy doesn't work? It isn't exactly something easily cut down the middle.

I just hope it isn't the Shinners...

InFront

Dalfiatach wrote: »

And in most cases these fears are groundless anyway. What was so terrible about Ruairi Quinn as Minister of Finance?

I'll give you one big thing: free university fees for the children of people in seriously high wages - over IR£70,000 say.

This was one of the first ominous signs of things to come in relation to the Republic squandering its wealth and throwing caution to the wind. This is the kind of continued policy I would be mindful of with a coalition partner in Labour.

I would like to put a question to FG voters. In the future, perhaps not at this election do you think it is feasible to suggest we do a deal of some sort with Fianna Fail as our coalition partners? If we really believe in furthering our economic policies, and the quality and necessit of our policies, surely we must approach the party whose policies and economic position most resembles ours?

There is a stark dichotomy between our fundamental principles and those of Labour, SF, and to a certain extent, the Greens. It is difficult to reconcile a liberal, pro-enterpise economic policy and conservative social policy with the Labour movement!

truebluedub

InFront wrote: »

I'll give you one big thing: free university fees for the children of people in seriously high wages - over IR£70,000 say.

This was one of the first ominous signs of things to come in relation to the Republic squandering its wealth and throwing caution to the wind. This is the kind of continued policy I would be mindful of with a coalition partner in Labour.

I would like to put a question to FG voters. In the future, perhaps not at this election do you think it is feasible to suggest we do a deal of some sort with Fianna Fail as our coalition partners? If we really believe in furthering our economic policies, and the quality and necessit of our policies, surely we must approach the party whose policies and economic position most resembles ours?

There is a stark dichotomy between our fundamental principles and those of Labour, SF, and to a certain extent, the Greens. It is difficult to reconcile a liberal, pro-enterpise economic policy and conservative social policy with the Labour movement!

The free fee scheme was brought in to allow for the universalistion of third level education, while certainly this has benefited the well off as well the only way that this can be applied is to bring in free fees for all. Critics point to the fact that middle class parents take advantage of this to fund grinds for their children, which does add to the chances for middle class students to gain college places, in the process replicating the status quo of a to tier education system. This is because the free market has intervened to take advantage of a policy. Or are you trying too argue against private education. These same critics choose to ignore that the free fees scheme has allowed those of non-traditional college background to enter third level, they do this by refusing to look at the statistics that show an increase in people from the lower middle class, the working class, mature students and travellers.

The major problem with the current system is that as it was never index linked to inflation the subvention is no longer adequate to fund universities, therefore rendering it unsustainable as policy. This has in turn led to universities considering postgraduates as a priority as they both pay fees and produce research, one of the ways a third level instituion is measured.

However to effectively redress this the obvious answer of creating a ringfenced and index linked subvention seems to have escaped most people.

InFront

truebluedub wrote: »

These same critics choose to ignore that the free fees scheme has allowed those of non-traditional college background to enter third level, they do this by refusing to look at the statistics that show an increase in people from the lower middle class, the working class, mature students and travellers.

Nobody has a problem with that. How would a situation of keeping fees in place for high earners have ever impeded that? Do you really believe in free fees for millionaires as Ruairi Quinn and Labour pushed for and got? That's my worry about coalition with Labour

Free fees for all is not a subject of this thread, but the fact that it's a typical Labour idea is worrying. I can foresee a situation where a re-introduction of fees for the very wealthy would be blocked by Labour as our coalition partners and would just be indicative of a wider systemic problem of such a coalition of opposites.

truebluedub

I was responding to your post by demonstrating the fallacy in removing it instead of fixing the problem of it not being index linked. Which is likely to have been to appease your party.

There are only two parties which seem to have policies similar to yours FF and Libertas, in the case of the latter the only major differences are their position on Europe and immigration. FF have policies which are virtually identical to FG to the point that but for their name and which side of the civil war they (or rather daddy or grandpappy, etc) fought on the two parties are inseparable.

Grudaire

InFront wrote: »

There is a stark dichotomy between our fundamental principles and those of Labour, SF, and to a certain extent, the Greens. It is difficult to reconcile a liberal, pro-enterpise economic policy and conservative social policy with the Labour movement!

It is madness that we have parties like Labour who are big on the increase in spending, going in with parties who are in favour of reducing taxes (reducing revenue). That if anything is where the problem lies with the smaller parties going into coalition with the larger parties.

That however has never stopped them before. It doesn't look like FG will need labour, and why take a bigger partner than is needed?


On the note of free fee's - I'm sure the principle is that the cost is covered by everyone's taxes. Bigger earners tend to pay more tax, thus it should balance out. I'm surprised that FG would advocate double charging high earners...

InFront

I don't realy disagree with either of those statements except to say I think going into power with FF at some point in the near future (not after next general election) might not be a bad idea at all.

As regards fees, I would support the reintroduction of fees for high earners as opposed by Labour.

Joxer71

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Had FG gotten into power in 2007 we would be even worse than now. If they get in next time bye bye 15,000 public servants. The redundancy payments for them will kill the economy stone dead.

Also look back at FG governments, FG governments have been a disaster. The only 2 good governments they ever lead were the 1st and 2nd Inter-Party Governments. They were a disaster in the 80's and we are in similar times to the 80's.

Agree with you on this. FG have no policies and no front bench quality and with the prophet of doom joining their ranks they now have two people claiming that they predicted the recession, Bruton and Lee, but neither with any idea of how to fix it.

FF deserve a term on the bench so my preference would be for a rainbow with Labour as the dominant partner to dampen FG's middle/upper-class influence. The thought of Kenny as Taoiseach would be enough for me to change citizenship.

Souljacker

Joxer71 wrote: »

Agree with you on this. FG have no policies and no front bench quality and with the prophet of doom joining their ranks they now have two people claiming that they predicted the recession, Bruton and Lee, but neither with any idea of how to fix it.

FF deserve a term on the bench so my preference would be for a rainbow with Labour as the dominant partner to dampen FG's middle/upper-class influence. The thought of Kenny as Taoiseach would be enough for me to change citizenship.

Your post is wrong in so many ways!

Richard Bruton has outlined very clearly how he plans to get the banks and country finances in order.

http://www.finegael.org/policy/

As for calling George Lee the 'prophet of doom' and snidely remaking that her 'claimed' to predict the recession, do I really need to explain what's wrong with this one?

IMO, there's plenty of quality on the FG front bench and strangely the electorate (based on recent polls) seem to agree with me.

And as for FG being upper middle class it might interest you to know Labour attract more support from the ABC1 groups than the C2DE.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0515/1224246565691.html

Also Labours commitment to free 3rd level fees is a huge sop to the middle classes, something FG can't be equally accused of.

2-D Man

Come on Labour, Sinn Fein and the Socialists

(I can dream... )