Dublin club football being ruined

Tazdedub

Just wanted to get some opinion on this. I know I have Dublin club football in the title but this problem probably exists in other counties. Anyway for some years now certain clubs in Dublin and getting players from other clubs to transfer to them. This is highlight by the current player versus club row with Eamonn Fennell refusing to play for his club this year because they turned down his transfer request to another Dublin club, this is the guys 3 transfer request for 3 different clubs, if he doesnt play for the year then he is free to move to any club he likes, but he is still turning out for Dublin.

To me this highlights everything that is wrong in Dublin football and is killing off what should be a really competitive league, how are the smaller clubs to compete when their best players are being poached by the bigger clubs? Is this happening in other counties?

blackbelt

I think it is a shame that this is happening.Fennell wants to go to Vincents from O Tooles but O Tooles have blocked the transfer.I have spoken to a few people from O Tooles and the transfer was blocked on the basis that they "didn't want to lose their best player".

To me,O Tooles should just let him go.If he is prepared to sit out club action,it is not as if O Tooles are going to avail of his services.All it will do is delay the inevitable and possibly hurt Fennells intercounty prospects if he is idle for the next year and he is extremely unlikely to stay.Maybe it is the case that he simply doesn't want to play for O Tooles anymore.He withdrew his transfer to Plunketts last year at the 11th hour.On the other hand,what good would keeping a player who doesn't want to be there do?

I feel sorry for O Tooles in all of this too but I think they are more in the wrong here.

On the point of the smaller clubs losing out,I'd agree to a certain extent but O Tooles are not by any means a small club.I'd consider Naomh Olaf,St Maurs and Trinity Gaels as small clubs but O Tooles are a big club with plenty of success at senior level over the years that they are actually the closest to St Vincents in terms of winning the club SFC.

Grudaire

Perhaps a system like I think Kerry have would help:

Basically all the smaller clubs don't compete the championship, but the best from a few small clubs in each region form a team, and compete in the Club championship at county level.

It gives the best players a high standard to play at no matter which club they come from.

Tazdedub

Cliste that is not a fair system. If a club earns the right to be entered into the County Senior championship then they should be allowed to compete. I was disgusted as a player if my club won the right to enter the senior championship but wasnt allowed play because we were a big club.

Blackbelt, I dont agree with players leaving clubs like that just because they are on the Dublin panel. How would you feel if mossy quinn left Vincents to play with Plunketts because they had the better team and he could win something with them? Its not fair on the smaller clubs that these bigger clubs like Vincents come in and try poach these players. Why should a player leave a small club like Trinity Gaels to play for Vincents? Are Gaels not also in Senior Division 1, have they not won the right to keep their players that they have nurtured since they started to kick a ball? What about Raheny are they a big club, you dont see their players leaving or Shane Ryan at Mearnog, the list could go on? Trinity Gaels had one of the best full forwards playing for them when they were Intermediate and he didnt leave to go play with a big club, despite pressure being put on him to do so, same with Niall Guiden and Paul Bealin at the same time with raheny and Kevins. Its a disgrace that these big clubs are ruining the game in Dublin and players need to take a good hard look at themselves and stop being merceranies. This is one of the reasons why Dublin havent been able to win an All Ireland. You dont hear of this carry on in any other county. Its time the the county step in and put an end to it.

Grudaire

Tazdedub wrote: »

Cliste that is not a fair system. If a club earns the right to be entered into the County Senior championship then they should be allowed to compete. I was disgusted as a player if my club won the right to enter the senior championship but wasnt allowed play because we were a big club.

I think that it's up to the club whether they play or not - and clubs aren't forced into the regional teams... It's just a suggestion that would allow players to develop by playing at a higher standard without needing to be in the big clubs.

I'm a big confused by what you are saying about being disgusted aswell

yahoo_moe

blackbelt wrote: »

On the point of the smaller clubs losing out,I'd agree to a certain extent but O Tooles are not by any means a small club.

No, O'Tooles are not a small club... but the point isn't specifically about them - it's one of those old "matter of principle" chestnuts.

Personally, I agree with the OP that your club should be your club, for better or worse, until they can't put out a team for you to play on. It's not an amateur or professional thing, and I'm not normally one wedded to 'tradition' at the expense of 'progress', but fishing around for different moves to different clubs is something that I'd rather was kept out of the game.

MementoMori

Tazdedub wrote: »

Cliste that is not a fair system. If a club earns the right to be entered into the County Senior championship then they should be allowed to compete. I was disgusted as a player if my club won the right to enter the senior championship but wasnt allowed play because we were a big club.

Cliste probably didn't describe the system completely accurately - should probably have used weaker instead of smaller. The way it works is that weaker teams can choose to go it alone if they want. However in most cases they choose to band together with one or more neighbouring clubs in order to have a realistic chance of winning the county championship. In general it works out pretty well and there doesn't tend to be much grumbling about it. It's not a case of not being allowed enter the senior championship because a club isn't a historical big club.

Given that there are a number of players on the Kerry panel from the fourth and fifth division of the county league, it seems to work pretty well, in the sense that you don't really hear of players moving from clubs in the lower divisions in order to increase their chances of playing for the county.

Tazdedub

MementoMori wrote: »

Cliste probably didn't describe the system completely accurately - should probably have used weaker instead of smaller. The way it works is that weaker teams can choose to go it alone if they want. However in most cases they choose to band together with one or more neighbouring clubs in order to have a realistic chance of winning the county championship. In general it works out pretty well and there doesn't tend to be much grumbling about it. It's not a case of not being allowed enter the senior championship because a club isn't a historical big club.

Given that there are a number of players on the Kerry panel from the fourth and fifth division of the county league, it seems to work pretty well, in the sense that you don't really hear of players moving from clubs in the lower divisions in order to increase their chances of playing for the county.

Momento, thats all well and good for the good players in the team who would be selected to play for the regional team in the championship, but what about their team mates, do they not get to play in the championship then?

As to why I am disgusted, I am disgusted because there is a percieved snobbery amongst these big clubs in Dublin who go around trying to attract these players to their clubs with all sorts of offers, it is well known in Dublin GAA circles what some of these players get if they join the club and it is this sort of behaviour that is destroying Dublin football. Pretty soon there will be only 5 or 6 clubs in Dublin and that wont be good for Dublin GAA as a whole. I dont mind players transferring if as was said that the club cant field a team or the club dont play hurling or football. In this case O'Tooles are fielding a team in Division 3 of Dublin senior Football and in the Dublin Senior Football championship, there is no reason for Fennell to move to another club. This is a club that he has played at since he was a kid and now that he is on the dublin panel his club is no use to him anymore. Also what about players at these big clubs, how do they feel? How do up and coming young players feel when they see the club getting in these players which means that it is harder for them to make the break through into their own clubs Senior team? This is why Dublin GAA is suffering, this is one of the reasons why clubs the length and breath of the county are struggling to field teams.

kilns

The Dublin SFC has been devalued over the last few years, especially with Vincents winning it with the merceneries they brought in to help them. If they had have competed with the players they brought up through the ranks, they would have been close but not clsoe enough. Crokes last year had Kavanagh and Morrissey but at least it was their home grown players that were the main men in their team.

Now this year the favourites for the SFC are plunketts. A few years agao they were nowhere and yes they have produced the Brogan brothers (Alan and Bernard, I think the other brogan relatives are highly overratted) but they have imported some key players, notably Anthony Moyles, to help them win the championship.

Fennel is a disgrace in my opinion, he has tried to transfer to ballymun, Vincents and Plunketts. This should just not be allowed and he should not be allowed near the Dublin panel as it is an insult to players who have stuck with their clubs no matter what. Some inter county players think they are bigger than their clubs and have no respect for their clubs.

The latest club flinging the cash about is Parnells, Darren Rooney and Parkinson joining, now why would they join Parnells??? and didnt Parnells come in to alot of money recently??!!

I look forward to the day a team wins the SFC with 15 home grown players. Not ever going to happen I think though

Tazdedub

kilns wrote: »

The Dublin SFC has been devalued over the last few years, especially with Vincents winning it with the merceneries they brought in to help them. If they had have competed with the players they brought up through the ranks, they would have been close but not clsoe enough. Crokes last year had Kavanagh and Morrissey but at least it was their home grown players that were the main men in their team.

Now this year the favourites for the SFC are plunketts. A few years agao they were nowhere and yes they have produced the Brogan brothers (Alan and Bernard, I think the other brogan relatives are highly overratted) but they have imported some key players, notably Anthony Moyles, to help them win the championship.

Fennel is a disgrace in my opinion, he has tried to transfer to ballymun, Vincents and Plunketts. This should just not be allowed and he should not be allowed near the Dublin panel as it is an insult to players who have stuck with their clubs no matter what. Some inter county players think they are bigger than their clubs and have no respect for their clubs.

The latest club flinging the cash about is Parnells, Darren Rooney and Parkinson joining, now why would they join Parnells??? and didnt Parnells come in to alot of money recently??!!

I look forward to the day a team wins the SFC with 15 home grown players. Not ever going to happen I think though

Kilns, I agree 100% with what you say. It would be great to see a team with homegrown players win the championship. To me there should be no reason in Dublin why a player should transfer to another club in Dublin, unless as stated above that the club the player is currently with cant field a team. I have no problem with country players who for whatever reason have to live and work in Dublin and therefore may transfer to a team in Dublin that to me is reasonable. It is starting to get like the English premier league in Dublin during transfer season.

I think the clubs doing this are destroying Dublin football with their greed. Just because they have a bit of money behind them they think that they can have any player they want and to hell with the smaller club.

blackbelt

kilns wrote: »

The Dublin SFC has been devalued over the last few years, especially with Vincents winning it with the merceneries they brought in to help them. If they had have competed with the players they brought up through the ranks, they would have been close but not clsoe enough. Crokes last year had Kavanagh and Morrissey but at least it was their home grown players that were the main men in their team.

Now this year the favourites for the SFC are plunketts. A few years agao they were nowhere and yes they have produced the Brogan brothers (Alan and Bernard, I think the other brogan relatives are highly overratted) but they have imported some key players, notably Anthony Moyles, to help them win the championship.

Fennel is a disgrace in my opinion, he has tried to transfer to ballymun, Vincents and Plunketts. This should just not be allowed and he should not be allowed near the Dublin panel as it is an insult to players who have stuck with their clubs no matter what. Some inter county players think they are bigger than their clubs and have no respect for their clubs.

The latest club flinging the cash about is Parnells, Darren Rooney and Parkinson joining, now why would they join Parnells??? and didnt Parnells come in to alot of money recently??!!

I look forward to the day a team wins the SFC with 15 home grown players. Not ever going to happen I think though

Have to disagree with you here a little bit.While I do think the situation is slowly starting to get a bit out of hand,I wouldn't go as far as to say the Dublin SFC has been devalued.If anything,the Dublin SFC has been made more competitive.This is a reason why the Andy Merrigan Cup has been in Dublin the last two year (2008/09,2009/10) and it is highly accepted around the country that the club championship here in Dublin is the most competitive and difficult to win along with the Kerry championship...in particular the

While Vincents had a few imports such as Conlon,Coughlan and O Shea,they used mostly home grown players to win the All Ireland.Players like Savage,Gill,Diamond,Golden,Lowry,Brennan,Connolly,Quinn,Gilroy,Trainor and Fallon.I don't think the team was overcrowded with imports.

This year,Plunketts have got Moyles in alright but was he used during their thrashing of St Brigids?He wasn't.Plunketts would be placed favourites for this year on the basis of their showing in last years Dublin SFC which they should have won.The width of the crossbar denied them.They also have a formidable defense,a well built midfield and lets be honest,they have the best forwards in Dublin in Jayo,Bernard Brogan and Alan Brogan.

Back on topic,I am not sure of why Fennell would want to go or if he was approached by any of the aforementioned clubs.I don't know enough about that to comment nor shall I as outlined by myself in the charter.***

But it is obvious that he wants to go.I can understand O Tooles not wantng Fennell to leave but blocking his transfer will do them no favours apart from delay the inevitable.We can talk about clubs and where you are from and lads you grew up playng with but if a player wants to leave that is his decision.I hardly think Fennell is going to change his mind and while it is a shame he wants to leave them,it is his decision to leave to another club.Fennell can come across as a traitor but that will be something he'll take on board and deal with.

kilns

It has been devalued as the whole ethos of the club, is that each club play with the hand that they are given. You develop the players which you have and everyone knows there is alot more pride in winning a championship with guys who have grown up with the club, know what the club is all about and know they people that mark the pitches, runs the bar in the clubhouse etc etc rather than someone who comes from the miles away and just trains and plays the games and then heads off.

My point with Vincents was that without the imports, I don't think they would have won the Dublin SFC or the All-ireland and they know that.

With regard to Plunketts, Jayo isn't a plunketts man either, although he did come from the team which were probably the worst offenders for this carry on and now they are beginning to suffer

patmac

Alarming subject that seems to be getting out of hand, doesn't seem to happen in Roscommon (then again nothing much happens down here )
Serious allegations regarding money or am I been naive. Blackbelt 3 imports is a lot thats 20% of the team. I certainly don't like where this is going, we lost both county finals by a point last year if we could have brought or bought in a decent forward on both teams we would have won the double and be thought of as one of the best clubs in the country instead we are 8 months later still trying to scrape ourselves of the floor but at least all our players are home grown. I think O'Tooles are right to make this practice of switching clubs as difficult as possible and the whole process should be tightened up to avoid clubs buying success which surely goes against the whole ethos of the GAA.

By the way the player who scored the equalising point in the 2nd minute of injury time in the Roscommon Senior Football Final this season switched to Castlerea about 3 or 4 years ago from a junior club, so it does happen elsewhere:mad:

phil

Frankie Dolan made a reasonably controversial move from Brigids in Roscommon to Ballymahon in Longford a few years ago.

Tazdedub

it should be made as difficult as possible for an adult player to transfer to another club unless there is a very good reason such as the club cant field a team or work commitments. If it was easy to move, whats the point in the smaller clubs nuturing players then only for them to leave for the bigger club when they older for nothing. If it was made easier then I think the smaller club should be compensated in some way by the club their player is transferring to either a cash donation or a player exchange. I bet that would put a stop to this sort of carry on.

premierstone

blackbelt wrote: »

If anything,the Dublin SFC has been made more competitive.This is a reason why the Andy Merrigan Cup has been in Dublin the last two year (2008/09,2009/10) and it is highly accepted around the country that the club championship here in Dublin is the most competitive and difficult to win along with the Kerry championship

Cant argue with you on the competiveness side BB but the problem is its not really in essence a club championship and its certainly not a Dublin club championship, it gets a bit more like the premiership every year and I know im going to annoy alot of Dubs here by comparing Dublin to English soccer but in this case I think it is relevant - it is widely accepted across Europe that the reason the England national team are not as successfull as they should be is due to the number of 'non english' players in the English league taking up places that would be/should be occupied by home grown local players, persoanlly I think the same is happening to Dublin Football, and while it is no where near as bad its certainly heading in that direction.

As for Fennell I just cant fathom a guy like that I mean what satisfaction can actually surpass winning something with your neighbours, your buddies, school mates. I mean its one of the pricipals on which this whole association is built upon.

yahoo_moe

kilns wrote: »

My point with Vincents was that without the imports, I don't think they would have won the Dublin SFC or the All-ireland and they know that.

I'd be more with Blackbelt on this one - there's an awful lot of lads on that team that came through Vincent's juvenile system (which is pretty prolific with 3 and often 4 teams per age group - I know, I've played against them :pac:).

Even more importantly, if you take the 'transfers' out of every one of the top Dublin club teams, I think Vincent's would have as good a chance as anyone of winning out. Probably not nationally though, you'd be right there I think.

Tazdedub wrote:

I think the smaller club should be compensated in some way by the club their player is transferring to either a cash donation or a player exchange

Absolute minefield:
(1) cash turns it into a transfer system which is completely against the principles of the GAA (and against the point of view you seem to stand for that you play with your club until it's absolutely impossible)
(2) player exchanges mean that you could end up with a player being fecked out of a club he wants to stay with.

No way - I'd like to see it stopped, not regulated.

Tazdedub

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Absolute minefield:
(1) cash turns it into a transfer system which is completely against the principles of the GAA (and against the point of view you seem to stand for that you play with your club until it's absolutely impossible)
(2) player exchanges mean that you could end up with a player being fecked out of a club he wants to stay with.

No way - I'd like to see it stopped, not regulated.

Yahoo, I would prefer to see it stopped. At the moment the way things are going in Dublin Club Football, not too sure about the hurling, there will only be 5 or 6 teams who will be competing to win the Senior championship or the Div1 league, any team outside of those 6 or so clubs will be left fighting over the scraps. As soon one says it is turning into a English Premier league style competition where only certain clubs can compete and the rest are just making up the numbers and that is not going to do Dublin Football or the county team any good.

Imposter

Is Fennel upset at goings on in his current club or is it all about chance of success/money? That to me is the only reasonable reason to leave a club for a club that's not a million miles away.

MementoMori

Tazdedub wrote: »

Momento, thats all well and good for the good players in the team who would be selected to play for the regional team in the championship, but what about their team mates, do they not get to play in the championship then?

There's also a county junior championship as well where the weaker teams play on their own, which is pretty keenly contested as well. Some players do lose out a bit and selection for the amalgamated teams can sometimes be a bit contenious but in general it works pretty well.

There's 60 clubs in the county league and if it were the case that every single team was in the senior champsionship it just wouldn't work as well. There would simply be too many games where the weaker teams would get steamrollered. It's not an ideal system but I do think it is the best of all possibilities.

Also it works in that you really don't have players transferring from smaller clubs to bigger clubs in any significant number whatsoever.

I agree with the rest of your points regarding players transferring between clubs, apart from the bit about the cash donation. I think that would be a bad path to go down. Personally I would have very little respect for any player transferring from one club to another looking for success.
As for players allegedly transferring for payment, I don't think I have the words to describe the scorn I'd hold them in.
The Dublin County Board don't seem to be doing anything to stamp out this behaviour which is sheer stupidity on their part as long-term this behaviour can only reduce Dublin chances of success.

taidghbaby

if fennell wants to go then i say let him!

i know i'd much rather line up beside lads who want to play for their club than want-aways!

LeoB

I dont think there is really any reason for lads in Dublin to transfer unless there is a serious falling out and then I still find t should be worked at with the help of County Board.

Far to many players are moving club and while Parnells got the Laois lads they also got 2 lads from St. Pats Donabate. THERE IS A RUMOUR DOING THE ROUNDS ABOUT A FEW TRANSFERS AND MONEY

I agree with Taidghbaby on this there is nothing like playing with lads who want to play for the club, THE PARISH.
On the Vincents issue I think they would win more at Senior level as they have a good juvenile section with excellent players at all ages. What I have heard tho is that some city clubs poach players through schools and this is sickening. Why not bring back a parish rule or only allow clubs to fiels 2 outsiders on their 1st team.
My club had a young lad who wanted to transfer to a neighbouring club we discussed it with his Parents and wished him well, (there were family problems) He hated it and wanted to move back but the county board blocked it. We felt it was best for the child not to stand in his way. We have quite a few players from outside our parish living in new estates and would not dream of asking them to play for us, if they want to come up they are welcome but we certainly wont poach them. Why did we spend so much time coaching our juveniles? We play Senior Division 2 with a panel of 22 players who started off in our Academy and rogressed up through our club and this is far more satisifying than parachuting players in who dont give a toss about our Club.
One neighbouring club has 7 players who moved over the years playing for various teams in Dublin senior league and some say a few of them were poached away.

Some small clubs in Fingal are constantly having players poached with all sorts of promises and one way of curbing it would be to have junior clubs amalgamate for senior club championships and they can still play junior with their own clubs but only a club side can win the club title like in Cork and Kerry. The big clubs wont go for this as it could put them in danger of not winning and also take away the oppertunity to poach players. We did in the past have Fingal selection and Junior Board selection play in Dublin Senior championship. Actually the last year Fingal played in it they were robbed and could have went on to the Final.
Oh plunketts also have Cormac Evans from Offaly.

LeoB

Just looking at the double standards as percieved by members of smaller club. Dublin County board fixed a second round senior championship match for St. Monicas in Edenmore between O'Tooles and St.Maurs. Bet they would not fix Kilmacud or Vincents to play here. Back door games were played on better pitch's.

Maybe Fennell is sick of the way the smaller football sides are treated by county board? O'Tooles hurlers would not be asked to play here.

no12

LeoB wrote: »

Far to many players are moving club and while Parnells got the Laois lads they also got 2 lads from St. Pats Donabate. THERE IS A RUMOUR DOING THE ROUNDS ABOUT A FEW TRANSFERS AND MONEY

And dont forget the cars LeoB

blackbelt

LeoB wrote: »

Just looking at the double standards as percieved by members of smaller club. Dublin County board fixed a second round senior championship match for St. Monicas in Edenmore between O'Tooles and St.Maurs. Bet they would not fix Kilmacud or Vincents to play here. Back door games were played on better pitch's.

Maybe Fennell is sick of the way the smaller football sides are treated by county board? O'Tooles hurlers would not be asked to play here.

Have to agree with you on this.I've been on the pitch in Edenmore and I have to say O Tooles and Maurs should be counting their blessings if nobody gets injured.The underfoot conditions aren't always the best and there is a bit of a slope on the pitch.

Strange that they should fix a backdoor match at this venue.If they wanted a neutral venue,they should have fixed it for Balgriffin as St Monicas is the next local club to O Tooles.

ontheditch

Only reason for transferring clubs, is if you are living in the area of the club you wish to transfer to. No other reason should really be acceptable.
In Cork and Kerry, there are regional teams entered into the Senior Football championships. In Kerry these teams are more successful than the Cork teams are in Cork, but these things tend to change as years go on. The regional/divisional teams are made up of teams that are not playing Senior. The exact same as is happening in the Dublin Senior Hurling championship.

This carry on of players within Dublin transferring freely, is actually effecting the Dublin Senior Football team more than anything else. I firmly believe that the top 8 teams in Dublin club football would win probably the county titile in upto 24 other counties. Dublin club football, is better than any other club championship, in terms of standard and competitiveness.
Where the problem is for me, Dublin Football team is made up of these players that are not that loyal to their own club. If they will not die for their club jersey, do people expect them to die for the Dublin Jersey??? Some players have no loyalty to their own friends that they grew up with, what chance do they have of being loyal to an intercounty team???

LeoB

no12 wrote: »

LeoB wrote: »

Far to many players are moving club and while Parnells got the Laois lads they also got 2 lads from St. Pats Donabate. THERE IS A RUMOUR DOING THE ROUNDS ABOUT A FEW TRANSFERS AND MONEY

And dont forget the cars LeoB

Only heard about the cars last night. Jeasus we are busting our B****X to bring our own player up to Senior and this crap is going on. We played a match last night with a team who all started in our academy and while we dont win county titles we have a lot more to be proud of than the mercenaries going around Dublin clubs. Oh and we won scoring 1..16 with kids we tied laces for only 10 or 12 years ago, MAGIC!

Some lads I see around who have moved clubs are damaging 2 clubs. Their "Home" club by moving and they are denying some lad in their new club an oppertunity to play for his parish team.

If a player left our club (we are Senior) we would be sick and I personally would not welcome him back. EVER. Talk about stabbing in the back. If any lads reading this are thinking of moving think about the respect you are losing. Lads might wish you well but what are they really saying?

On the other side of things a few years ago It was common to hear lads from Junior clubs were often "advised to join a bigger club" if they wanted a run with Dublin!! And if a lad thought he was good enough away he went and in some cases caused an awful lot of trouble for his parish club. Mind you a lot forgot about Dublin and just stayed with their parish club and looking at Dublin leagues now a good few lads took the right option and are doing great work raising the standards in their home club.
Up the Parish