Belief in "religion" without a belief in God

bandraoi

The previous thread got me thinking.

I came to the conclusion some time ago, that while I don't believe in God, I do believe in religion.

Has anyone else come to similar conclusions?

sink

You mean you recognise that religion has certain benefits? If so, then yes I agree. Community support and social bonding being the obvious one. But I don't agree that these benefits necessarily outweigh the negatives.

Naz_st

bandraoi wrote: »

Has anyone else come to similar conclusions?

Buddhists?

Genghiz Cohen

bandraoi wrote: »

I came to the conclusion some time ago, that while I don't believe in God, I do believe in religion.

Has anyone else come to similar conclusions?

Maybe I'm thick.
Can you explain?

Fighting Irish

Thats probably the worst possible way of doing it

Dades

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Maybe I'm thick.
Can you explain?

I assume bandraoi means rather than actually believing everything the religion says to be true, one can recognise that some of it's tenets are valuable, and can be adhered to independent of belief in the deity(s) involved.

Sounds a bit like Universal Unitarianism.

Genghiz Cohen

Dades wrote: »

I assume bandraoi means rather than actually believing everything the religion says to be true, one can recognise that some of it's tenets are valuable, and can be adhered to independent of belief in the deity(s) involved.

Sounds a bit like Universal Unitarianism.

I see...

bandraoi

My thoughts are only half formed on this, which is why this is going to be all over the place.

Religion seems to exist throughout human history and in every human culture. The obvious conclusion to me is therefore that it has value, and that there is something in the human psyche that needs religion.

I think few people would argue with the basic tenets of most religions "be nice to each other and help each other out." On a theoretical level that's great, on a practical level it becomes more difficult. There are too many people needing help and too much else we ourselves have to focus on. The basic "congregation" that you get in a religious context seems to me a good way that humans have developed of identifying who we help out and who we don't.

There is also a utility value in the concept of the "because higher authority X" said so. We do not have absolute truths, science is very much a work in progress. Sometimes we just have to get on with the task in hand, and as a group the human race can be like children, God is the Santa Claus effect writ large. "Because God said so" has proved a thousand times throughout history to work. Yes for evil, but also for good. If Atheists leave the field of religion totally, they leave the "Because it's the right thing to do" field as an open season for others.

The most spectacular buildings and the best works of art humankind have ever produced have been as a result of religion. In some of these cases, God is the inspiration, but the religious organisations have persuaded the entire community to come together to sponsor art and buildings. These days a government allots an amount from tax for new civic amenities, or a single person/company pays for it by themselves. When you study development aid/community regeneration schemes you learn that the first thing you need to make them work is community buy in. Religion (and that basket that gets passed around in mass) have been doing that for thousands of years.

Finally, for this post, religion can act as an interesting alternative power structure. In medieval Europe for instance, kings had vast amounts of power, yet this power was somewhat counter balanced by the church. There were essentially two power structures, the government on a country scale and interwoven with it the church on a continent scale. Each organisation told people what to do, each collected revenues and handed out punishments, each told people how they should behave and where one failed the other was available to highlight its failings and perhaps step into the breach.

I suppose that what I'm getting at is that while I don't believe in God, I can see the point of having him about.

bandraoi

Dades wrote: »

I assume bandraoi means rather than actually believing everything the religion says to be true, one can recognise that some of it's tenets are valuable, and can be adhered to independent of belief in the deity(s) involved.

Sounds a bit like Universal Unitarianism.

I believe that the tenets are valuable but also that the organisational structures are valuable, I even believe that the concept of God is valuable.

I just don't believe in God.

marco_polo

Time to come out of the closet. Yes, I too believe that religion exists.

Dades

bandraoi wrote: »

I believe that the tenets are valuable but also that the organisational structures are valuable, I even believe that the concept of God is valuable.

I just don't believe in God.

So basically it's valuable for other people to believe? The examples you've given are based on religion fuelled by belief.

Let's face it if you don't believe it god and particularly any sort of religious hierarchy are pointless.

irish_bob

a poor analogy i accept but here is mine

remember in the simpsons when the whole town of springfield were coming together to celebrate jebadiah springfield day and lisa dicovers that he wasnt the hero everyone was led to believe and in fact was a complete brigand , lisa at 1st was determined to expose the fraud but when she saw the community spirit and untiy which people engaged in as a result of thier belief in what was actually a myth , she decided to hold her whist , her arguement being that the legend had value regardless of its validity

Hivemind187

I think it depends on what you mean by religion really.

Ritual and ceremony have profound psychological effect on humans. Thats why we invented them.

Dissamble one and you will see why. The sound that prayer makes is resonant (even if it isnt written to be so it will invariably develop the "resonant" humming of any chant), the tones used in most religions like chimes and gongs are like psychological audible punctuation.

Religion is the all conquering master of this kind of thing. Slightly odd rituals with components that you perform "because you have to" ties in with the apparent psychological need for dogma many humans experience.

Having a specificaly codified set of rules or ethics to live by is hugely powerful. Armies, secret societies, philosophical groups etc have always written them down as a reference point, religions have also done this. the Ten Commandments for example. It makes it easy to hold one another and ones self accountable to a set standard. This is all the more powerful when it is invested with authority such as a higher power or simply the length of tradition.

What is interesting is that the supernatural component doesnt appear to be entirely necessary, at least is a significantly smaller proportion of the population that it is required in. The same emotional high or state of being can be achieved, without the use of any external substance, through music, chanting, vigorous and extended physical activity, meditiation etc.

So in a sense, for many people the trappings or mechanisms of religion are necessary at an individual level but I dont see much to suggest that the actual existance of a deity is required.

The desire "to be a part of something" is very strong though. The rules/codes can be a powerful tool to bring people together, like being in a club or finding common ground to agree on (atheists for example are having that row over whether or not they should be defined under a single umbrella term). I dont believe that the actual "religion" is required but I can certainly see the power it can have and why many people would assume that it is.