Kids in Martial Arts & Sparring

Vas_Guy

An instructor I know was doing some sparring with the kids in his dojo, he was wearing sparring mitts and one of the kids complained that he was hurt during the sparring and the kids father rang up to complain, the instructor was backed up by other members of the dojo who said there was no excessive contact and he was wearing mitts and tipping the kids on the head to teach them to keep their guard up. Nowehre was any kid hurt they were fine outside the dojo running round climbing the wall outside, etc then when the kid got home he was crying saying he was hurt in class.

Martial Arts in a contact activity and parents should realise that before they send their kids in to the class. If it was my kids I would expect them, to get hit now and again its part of the parcel.

The instructor is very upset over it as he was just tipping them the kids were going full force on him.

Does anyone have experience of this.

Unpossible

Its stories like this make me worry what am I getting myself into. I hope your friend will be ok, it sounds like someone is trying to get some cash.
I'm going to try and get those helmets with a cage/guard in front for the kids before I do any kind of sparring with them.

Vas_Guy

All the club members sign a disclaimer saying that instructor is not responsible for any injury, the kid is complaining that his leg was over stretched during sparring and the instructor told him to stretch his leg, the other seniors said that did not happen, he told the kid to shorted his stance as it was too long and a target for a sweep.

It makes me think are we getting soft if that was 20 years ago nobody would pass any notice.

If kids want to do martial arts their parents have to accept they are going to get a slap now and again if they cannot understand that then let them do some non contact activity

tallaght01

Vas_Guy wrote: »

All the club members sign a disclaimer saying that instructor is not responsible for any injury, the kid is complaining that his leg was over stretched during sparring and the instructor told him to stretch his leg, the other seniors said that did not happen, he told the kid to shorted his stance as it was too long and a target for a sweep.

It makes me think are we getting soft if that was 20 years ago nobody would pass any notice.

If kids want to do martial arts their parents have to accept they are going to get a slap now and again if they cannot understand that then let them do some non contact activity

I think those disclaimers aren't worth the paper they're written on if someone does actually get injured in your club.

But totally agree about parents getting soft. When I was a kid, taking a few clatters was just a normal part of growing up. I think it's the parents getting softer, rather than the kids though.

Vas_Guy

tallaght01 wrote: »

But totally agree about parents getting soft. When I was a kid, taking a few clatters was just a normal part of growing up. I think it's the parents getting softer, rather than the kids though.

I heard about another incident in a boxing club where a kid got hit and the mother caused a scene, why send him to boxing then??

Changing times

Jason Mc

I know a football coach who got sued for kicking a ball back in from the sideline that slapped a kid up the face and busted their nose.

Pure accident obviously.

I wouldn't hit a kid in our class even to teacht them to keep thier hands up. All demostrations are done on other adults/instructors.

I do my best to not even touch the kids at all. It a bad way to be but you have to watch your back

helimachoptor

I did Kenpo when I was younger and as the biggest in the class the instructor pretty much demonstrated on me all the time, I went home black and blue most weeks and it made no difference to my parents as I enjoyed it and they knew it was practice.

Vas_Guy

What about kids sparring each other and one gets hurt, despite all the protective gear.

The kid was saying that his legs were sore from being told to stretch them in sparring, which the instructor did not say.

It was noted that some of the parents are not too happy about kids sparring, but when they go to tournaments they'll get their back side kicked then the parents will be complaining again.

Let them go and go ballet or something not martial arts, when parents get involved it can cause problems, that why i suggest not giving parents a say in the running of a club, if they are not happy go elsewhere

Jason Mc

I remember doing karate when I was about 9 after watching a few bruce lee movies

The instructor at the time got us to sit in the lotus position and stood on our knees to stretch our adductors.

I nearly snapped like a wishbone at the christmas table

I remember one other time the same instructor who's nickname was karate joe hit one of the kids in the class who to be honest was a little bastard. His mum attacked karate joe with a poker later that evening.

Ah the good aul days..:eek:

Roper

Take a step back for a second lads. Firstly, I think kids are about as tough or not tough as they were when I was a kid (which isn't THAT long ago). Also it's every parent's right to protect their children and they must have an avenue of contact and a sense of approachability from the instructor. The days of "This is my Dojo!" are long gone, the best results you'll ever get with parents come from openness and collaboration. They trust you with what means most to them for an hour or two a week which is massive when it comes to something that teaches kids how to hurt each other. (which in spite of some people's discomfort is the whole point)

I'd say a few things. Firstly, I don't know the ins and outs of the particular case but I always protect myself in a few ways. Unfortunately we live in litigious times and even though the parents of my kids trust me and I have an excellent relationship with all of them, I still have to look after myself. A few rough and simple guidelines would be:
1) Always have a parent watching
2) Never, ever mix adults and children in the one class
3) Never engage in physical play with minors, sometimes including sparring.

Some people bemoan the fact that all of the conditions in the Child Protection Policy have to be satisfied, but to be honest, while some of it is a right pain to implement, a lot of it is just common sense and if someone hasn't been doing it anyway then they have been pretty irresponsible and probably shouldn't have been dealing with kids.

Vas_Guy

Roper wrote: »

Take a step back for a second lads. Firstly, I think kids are about as tough or not tough as they were when I was a kid (which isn't THAT long ago). Also it's every parent's right to protect their children and they must have an avenue of contact and a sense of approachability from the instructor. The days of "This is my Dojo!" are long gone, the best results you'll ever get with parents come from openness and collaboration. They trust you with what means most to them for an hour or two a week which is massive when it comes to something that teaches kids how to hurt each other. (which in spite of some people's discomfort is the whole point)

I'd say a few things. Firstly, I don't know the ins and outs of the particular case but I always protect myself in a few ways. Unfortunately we live in litigious times and even though the parents of my kids trust me and I have an excellent relationship with all of them, I still have to look after myself. A few rough and simple guidelines would be:
1) Always have a parent watching
2) Never, ever mix adults and children in the one class
3) Never engage in physical play with minors, sometimes including sparring.

Some people bemoan the fact that all of the conditions in the Child Protection Policy have to be satisfied, but to be honest, while some of it is a right pain to implement, a lot of it is just common sense and if someone hasn't been doing it anyway then they have been pretty irresponsible and probably shouldn't have been dealing with kids.

Excellent reply, and i agree there has to be a sense of approachability with the instructor but at the same time parents should not tell a dojo owner what way to run his/her club, the instructor should listen to what they have to say, but the parents have to remember its martial arts were doing

Chupa_chick

Vas_Guy wrote: »

Let them go and go ballet or something not martial arts

I remember when I was 9 and at ballet lessons - the teacher had two students pushing me down into the splits - one on each leg. Personally I'd say it was less painful to get hit in martial arts

I used to run the front desk in my old club during kids karate classes. From observation, if a kid ever ran off in tears or said they got hurt after sparring/partner drills it was because they thought they 'lost'/ freaking out about sparring in general, and were sulking, and needed to justify their tears to/get attention from their mammys - ah bless. Most parents took this behaviour with a large pinch of salt but lots of hugs for their kid.

I think one of the reasons for this not being a problem is that the instructor often took time out to speak and interact with the parents, they then knew him personally and therefore and trusted him as a good bloke and fair instructor. He also, on a regular basis put the fear of god into any student that was using their martial arts skills in a bad way - beating up siblings, bullying at school etc (he used to pretend he had spies in all the schools keeping watch). So the parents knew he kept a keen eye on over-enthusiastic students. He'd often 'bar' a student for a month or two if he found out they were doing the wrong thing with the skills he taught them.

Regardless of whether its martial arts, ballet or football, kids will get hurt, its just the overprotective parents you need to 'proactively manage'

Boston

tallaght01 wrote: »

I think those disclaimers aren't worth the paper they're written on if someone does actually get injured in your club.

But totally agree about parents getting soft. When I was a kid, taking a few clatters was just a normal part of growing up. I think it's the parents getting softer, rather than the kids though.

Exactly, you can't sign away someone else's liability. However, if you outlined in a document all the risks and get a parenet to sign it, then they can't claim ignorance.

Yeah i got sparring regularly about a year after i started (5) I got used to it and then went to competition and the people in my division were all crying after small hits in the face,My ten year old self was confuzzled.

tallaght01

Out of curiosity, do you guys fail the really young kids when they grade? We don't have kids in KM or in wing chun, so I don't know much about kids training. BUt I was talking to a mate who grades kids as young as 5 and 6 in TKD.

She says they basically don't put the kids forward for grading unless they're really ready, but they'll fail them if they don't perform?

Was wondering what the consensus is on this? Personally, I think confidence at this age is more important, so I'd be slow to fail a 5 year old at anything. But I'd be curious to hear other opinions.

Boston

tallaght01 wrote: »

Was wondering what the consensus is on this? Personally, I think confidence at this age is more important, so I'd be slow to fail a 5 year old at anything. But I'd be curious to hear other opinions.

Likewise if things come to easy to kids/people they don't respect what the gain and never learn how to truly push themselves.

tallaght01

Boston wrote: »

Likewise if things come to easy to kids/people they don't respect what the gain and never learn how to truly push themselves.

That's true as you get older. But small kids don't work like that. That's why they don't fail exams in school etc.

Boston

True enough. If a child failed a grading I'd blame the person who put them forward for grading. A couch should know what the graders are looking for and whether or not the student can meet it. That said, not much you can do about someone who messes up due to nerves.

FruitLover

Boston wrote: »

A couch should know what the graders are looking for and whether or not the student can meet it.

I failed my first black belt grading, but I blame my sofa...

tallaght01

FruitLover wrote: »

I failed my first black belt grading, but I blame my sofa...

Presumably you weren't 5 years old at the time, though.

Nothingcompares

gradings are inherently silly things so failing a child during one of these rituals is not a good thing. i've seen kids <10 years old fail and tbh it was shameful. they failed because they underperformed during the "test" . i'm still undecided if gradings should have a place in children's (or indeed adults') martial arts. other than make money, and give children a very visible pat on the back i don't know what they achieve.

--amadeus--

I don't agree that gradings are "inherently silly" - they are marks of progress and definable goals. Lots of people are goal oriented so belts work for them. But thats a different discussion.

The way the Instructors at the club I go to seem to manage the little kids grading is that they are only put forward if they are really ready for it - it's almost like continual assessment. So even if they screw up on the day though nerves or whatever then they still get the belt. This seems to be the way it works for teh first few belts and up to the early teens. After that they are checked on forms before going in to the grading - if they aren't ready they don't go in. Maintains the integrity of teh higher belst without giving the kids the stigma of a public "failure". I've still seen them in tears over it though, but as was said nothing worth getting is easy.

Nothingcompares

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I don't agree that gradings are "inherently silly" - they are marks of progress and definable goals. Lots of people are goal oriented so belts work for them. But thats a different discussion.

It's also good to hear other people's opinions on grading structures and belts in martial arts. This is a fairly broad thread so I hope I don't get in too much trouble for veering it off topic.

Imagine you started playing rugby tomorrow because of Leinster's success. And you went up to your local club and he were introduced to their "system" which is:

A yellow star for coming training 50 times
An orange star for playing 10 matches
A purple star for your first try
A red star for being courteous and gracious in defeat
A black star for assisting with coaching youngsters, going to functions, being a good guy around club.

(Don't forget it's 20 euro for each star except black star which is 100)

Would you think that is ridiculous? I would. I think belts and grades are an inherently silly part of martial arts and people mostly just go with the flow and except it. HOWEVER

I have found them an almost invaluable tool for road marking in martial arts like BJJ. Having key stages/levels in development does make it easier to appreciate your own position in the grander scheme of things and also, as we all like to do, cast judgment on others based on their rank.

Roper

Nothingcompares wrote: »

It's also good to hear other people's opinions on grading structures and belts in martial arts. This is a fairly broad thread so I hope I don't get in too much trouble for veering it off topic.

Imagine you started playing rugby tomorrow because of Leinster's success. And you went up to your local club and he were introduced to their "system" which is:

A yellow star for coming training 50 times
An orange star for playing 10 matches
A purple star for your first try
A red star for being courteous and gracious in defeat
A black star for assisting with coaching youngsters, going to functions, being a good guy around club.

(Don't forget it's 20 euro for each star except black star which is 100)

Would you think that is ridiculous? I would. I think belts and grades are an inherently silly part of martial arts and people mostly just go with the flow and except it. HOWEVER

I have found them an almost invaluable tool for road marking in martial arts like BJJ. Having key stages/levels in development does make it easier to appreciate your own position in the grander scheme of things and also, as we all like to do, cast judgment on others based on their rank.

Very good post.

It is an incredibly silly aspect of martial arts training, but there is one key difference in martial arts versus rugby or another sport. There is a distinct lack of competition for kids, and competition isn't even compulsory. What this means is that kids train to train, which is great but they also lack definable goals.

My kids do a grading system which I base on fun, attitude and skill in that order. They're all different and kids really don't have a choice over whether they get good or not. They're at different stages of development and one 8 year old is not like another. Both could be trying equally hard but one just doesn't get it yet while the other does for whatever reason. It's unfair to "grade" them based on their ability and in any case, what does it all mean anyway?

walshb

Vas_Guy wrote: »

An instructor I know was doing some sparring with the kids in his dojo, he was wearing sparring mitts and one of the kids complained that he was hurt during the sparring and the kids father rang up to complain, the instructor was backed up by other members of the dojo who said there was no excessive contact and he was wearing mitts and tipping the kids on the head to teach them to keep their guard up. Nowehre was any kid hurt they were fine outside the dojo running round climbing the wall outside, etc then when the kid got home he was crying saying he was hurt in class.

Martial Arts in a contact activity and parents should realise that before they send their kids in to the class. If it was my kids I would expect them, to get hit now and again its part of the parcel.

The instructor is very upset over it as he was just tipping them the kids were going full force on him.

Does anyone have experience of this.

Well, the child said he was hurt, and he probably was.

Just "tipping" is not good enough and maybe to the instructor, he/she thought
they were not causing pain or hurt, but it's an adult "tipping" a child, so there
needs to be some clarity here.

I would suggest NO tipping in future, so as to eliminate
the possibility of causing hurt or pain.