Newly imported small van - DOE/NCT loophole

alastair

I've just brought in a Nissan S-Cargo from the UK and will be VRT'ing it once the V5 arrives from Swansea.

It's a category B commercial as far as the VRT are concerned, below the 2 cubic metres cutoff for category C, but factory built without rear seatbelt posts, and, in this case rear porthole windows. 1500 engine.



Now, I'm curious about where to proceed from there. There's an advantage to taxing it privately, thus avoiding DOE testing, and because it's a van, it doesn't need to do the NCT either. I've read that previous S-Cargo imports fell into this loophole (along with a few small car-derived vans), and obviously the facility to avoid NCT tests would be a welcome one.

Can anyone who's been through these hoops let me know how they went about ensuring they fell between the two camps?

cheers.

CJhaughey

I think you will have to panel the rear porthole windows out before you can VRT it as a Van.
Then just tax it as a Private vehicle.

robtri

why would you want to avoid the NCT or DOE....

There are benifits from have your checked against certain standards every 4 or 1 year... at very little cost....

Surely its a good thing to know if your van is safe to drive in....

alastair

robtri wrote: »

why would you want to avoid the NCT or DOE....

There are benifits from have your checked against certain standards every 4 or 1 year... at very little cost....

Surely its a good thing to know if your van is safe to drive in....

You don't need an NCT to tell you if your van is safe. It's not a banger, and will be well maintained regardless.

alastair

CJhaughey wrote: »

I think you will have to panel the rear porthole windows out before you can VRT it as a Van.
Then just tax it as a Private vehicle.

The portholes shouldn't be required to be filled in - it isn't a car-van, so the rear window conversion rules don't apply. It's clearly a van, and not a car. Advised on this by a trade importer of various japanese yokes, and checking the revenue rules, it seems to be the case.

MercMad

Also if you tax it privately wont you lose the VAT element at sales point ?

robtri

alastair wrote: »

You don't need an NCT to tell you if your van is safe. It's not a banger, and will be well maintained regardless.

no you don't need an nct to tell if your van is safe....
thats why you never see any dangerous or over polluting vans on our roads...:rolleyes:

stifz

alastair wrote: »

You don't need an NCT to tell you if your van is safe. It's not a banger, and will be well maintained regardless.

Not a great fan of the NCT Im a vintage fan BUT.. it can turn up a few items a mechanic would miss. My wife was driving around in a car with corroded break lines with our child in it. The mechanic who did the service 2k earlier did'nt spot it..

Aesthetically i think the van is hideous with or without NCT.

alastair

MercMad wrote: »

Also if you tax it privately wont you lose the VAT element at sales point ?

I'm actually going to run this as a personal vehicle for a period, with an intention to use it commercially down the road, and the VAT aspect isn't a major concern for me - it's been bought at the right price, and the resale value wouldn't be huge.

alastair

robtri wrote: »

no you don't need an nct to tell if your van is safe....
thats why you never see any dangerous or over polluting vans on our roads...:rolleyes:

You honestly think that its a black and white situation?

I've a classic car you could eat your dinner off - pristine condition, that will never see an NCT in it's life. Conversely my day-to-day car, passed the NCT just fine cheers, is just about to have it's shocks replaced, because they are patently not doing their job properly any more - but sailed through the NCT.

I'll trade a bit of common sense for blind faith in the NCT.

Saab Ed

There are no NCT / DOE loopholes. There are on the other hand loopers who try to avoid NCTs and DOEs with loopy ideas. Tax it private and you need a an NCT, tax it commercial and it needs a DOE. End of.....:cool:

alastair

stifz wrote: »

Aesthetically i think the van is hideous with or without NCT.

Well - it's the Bovril of car design. I like it, and that's all that matters.

Mind you, i don't like Bovril.

stifz

Saab Ed wrote: »

There are no NCT / DOE loopholes. There are on the other hand loopers who try to avoid NCTs and DOEs with loopy ideas. Tax it private and you need a an NCT, tax it commercial and it needs a DOE. End of.....:cool:

+1

With exception of Vintage which we all know are exempt. Even owning one.. I'd be in favor of some form of testing..

alastair

Saab Ed wrote: »

There are no NCT / DOE loopholes. There are on the other hand loopers who try to avoid NCTs and DOEs with loopy ideas. Tax it private and you need a an NCT, tax it commercial and it needs a DOE. End of.....:cool:

Not quite. If it's taxed privately the NCT won't entertain you if you try and book a test. There's ample evidence and history of small vans that fall between the two camps. That's the reality - nothing to do with 'loopers'.

RichyX

I love the name S-Cargo, it does look like a snail!

Saab Ed

Saab Ed wrote: »

There are no NCT / DOE loopholes. There are on the other hand loopers who try to avoid NCTs and DOEs with loopy ideas. Tax it private and you need a an NCT, tax it commercial and it needs a DOE. End of.....:cool:

There is a loophole its well known and used around where I live and I was using this loop hole myself on a fiesta van a while back. You cannot nct a van, and if its taxed private you cannot do a doe.

On a small van its very handy as the small engine tax is around the same as commercial tax.

I also know people with bigger engined car-vans taxing privately as the cost to get the van through the doe would be much more than paying extra private tax.

alastair

Actually - crunching the figures makes commerical tax the better option - private tax would be 357 a year as compared to 288 on the commercial rate. Effectively cancels out the cost benefit of avoiding the DOE.

Commercial it is then.

stifz

alastair wrote: »

Not quite. If it's taxed privately the NCT won't entertain you if you try and book a test. There's ample evidence and history of small vans that fall between the two camps. That's the reality - nothing to do with 'loopers'.

Regardless... its up to you if you want to use Irish Roads that you have an up to date NCT or DOE. Im aware of the previous posts of the gap in small good vehicles. But at a checkpoint no NCT or DOE is a penalty point issue now i believe? The test is not just for the good of the owner but the other road users you place in possible danger. The same can be said of vintage as its not a regulated body thats checking.

This leaves it up to the owners judgment... owners judgment in Irish terms is... Ah sure the bearing on the trailer has a little play in it but sure drive it till it gets a little worse.. and a little more and finally the trailer over takes you in a school zone.

If you feel you can get away with it then who am i to judge ya. But i would say should an accident happen it may go pear shaped for ya. What does the insurance co require to insure it? Do they ask for nct or DOE?

CJhaughey

Looking at the Revenue commissioners definition of a Van:

Meaning of “van” A van means a mechanically propelled vehicle which – Is designed or constructed solely or mainly for the carriage of goods or other burden, and Has a roofed area or areas to the rear of the driver’s seat, and Has no side windows or seating fitted in that roofed area or areas

Thats straight from their website, That said the individual interpretation would be up to the local officer.

alastair

stifz wrote: »

Regardless... its up to you if you want to use Irish Roads that you have an up to date NCT or DOE. Im aware of the previous posts of the gap in small good vehicles. But at a checkpoint no NCT or DOE is a penalty point issue now i believe? The test is not just for the good of the owner but the other road users you place in possible danger. The same can be said of vintage as its not a regulated body thats checking.

This leaves it up to the owners judgment... owners judgment in Irish terms is... Ah sure the bearing on the trailer has a little play in it but sure drive it till it gets a little worse.. and a little more and finally the trailer over takes you in a school zone.

If you feel you can get away with it then who am i to judge ya. But i would say should an accident happen it may go pear shaped for ya. What does the insurance co require to insure it? Do they ask for nct or DOE?

There's nothing illegal about driving it on the road sans NCT or DOE (if your vehicle applies - new cars, classic cars, certain small vans). If it's privately taxed it's not liable for NCT testing, so NCT checks won't pose any problem. Likewise it'd not be liable for a DOE, and the guards don't have DOE checkpoints in any case. Car-vans that fall between the two camps are driving around daily with perfectly valid insurance coverage.

Likewise the safe use of the roads doesn't require either NCT or DOE. If the point you're trying to make is that anything on the road without an NCT or DOE is defacto unsafe then you're not going to convince me. There are dangerous vehicles on the road because they're not maintained properly - regardless of what certs they do or don't have. You don't need any metaphor of runaway trailers in schoolyards to get beyond that fact.

alastair

CJhaughey wrote: »

Looking at the Revenue commissioners definition of a Van:

Meaning of “van” A van means a mechanically propelled vehicle which – Is designed or constructed solely or mainly for the carriage of goods or other burden, and Has a roofed area or areas to the rear of the driver’s seat, and Has no side windows or seating fitted in that roofed area or areas

Thats straight from their website, That said the individual interpretation would be up to the local officer.

The VRT database already has the S-Cargo marked up as a category B vehicle though - the windows were factory fitted items, so it's a standard/unmodified vehicle. If the officer goes by the book and previous rulings it should be fine.

Saab Ed

alastair wrote: »

The VRT database already has the S-Cargo marked up as a category B vehicle though - the windows were factory fitted items, so it's a standard/unmodified vehicle. If the officer goes by the book and previous rulings it should be fine.

You are of your head. Let me say this again ...THERE ARE NO LOOPHOLES. If your idea of a loophole is a Cat B vehicle then you've just excused the following vehicles from DOE:

Ford Focus Van
Renault Megavan
Toyota Land cruiser SWB Commercial
VW Golfvan
Peugeot 307 Van

Catergory B is not a loophole sub section invented by the revenue to dogge road worthiness tests ,its a VRT amount stuck between Cat A and Cat C . Fool yourself if you want but its illegal to drive that vehicle over 4 years old with no NCT or over 1 year old with no DOE depending on your taxing. :P

Saab Ed

Saab Ed wrote: »

You are of your head. Let me say this again ...THERE ARE NO LOOPHOLES. If your idea of a loophole is a Cat B vehicle then you've just excused the following vehicles from DOE:

Ford Focus Van
Renault Megavan
Toyota Land cruiser SWB Commercial
VW Golfvan
Peugeot 307 Van

Catergory B is not a loophole sub section invented by the revenue to dogge road worthiness tests ,its a VRT amount stuck between Cat A and Cat C . Fool yourself if you want but its illegal to drive that vehicle over 4 years old with no NCT or over 1 year old with no DOE depending on your taxing. :P

Here you are:


""Rules
From 2002 onwards, all cars 4 years and over will be tested. Vehicles that pass the test will have to undergo repeat tests every 2 years. You must also bring your vehicle registration book or registration certificate with you to the test centre.

Exemptions from NCT
For NCT purposes, a vehicle that is more than 30 years old is classed as 'vintage' and does not have to be tested. Classic cars are those cars aged 25 years or older and they must be tested until they are 30 years old. Cars permanently based on islands that are not connected to the mainland by road will not have to be tested.

Car-vans that have their rear side windows blocked off and are privately taxed are currently exempt from the NCT. (Car-vans that don't have their rear side windows blocked off and are privately taxed are classed as cars and are subject to the NCT).

Car-vans that have their rear side windows blocked off and are commercially taxed must contact their Motor Tax Office as they are required to have their vehicle tested by the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government - not through NCTS.""


from here http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/vehicle-standards/national_car_test

alastair

Saab Ed wrote: »

You are of your head. Let me say this again ...THERE ARE NO LOOPHOLES. If your idea of a loophole is a Cat B vehicle then you've just excused the following vehicles from DOE:

Ford Focus Van
Renault Megavan
Toyota Land cruiser SWB Commercial
VW Golfvan
Peugeot 307 Van

Catergory B is not a loophole sub section invented by the revenue to dogge road worthiness tests ,its a VRT amount stuck between Cat A and Cat C . Fool yourself if you want but its illegal to drive that vehicle over 4 years old with no NCT or over 1 year old with no DOE depending on your taxing. :P

Eh, I never said all category B vehicles were exempt. A few small vans are however - a point which you might not like to admit, but a fact nonetheless.

S.I.R

i was told by gardi its based on weight... thats how a mate and me got away with no nct when he was driving a charade and once again in a swift van.

Saab Ed

Avalyn Quiet Radiotherapy wrote: »

Here you are:



Exemptions from NCT

Car-vans that have their rear side windows blocked off and are privately taxed are currently exempt from the NCT. (Car-vans that don't have their rear side windows blocked off and are privately taxed are classed as cars and are subject to the NCT).

Car-vans that have their rear side windows blocked off and are commercially taxed must contact their Motor Tax Office as they are required to have their vehicle tested by the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government - not through NCTS.""

Pass me the humble pie please

L-M

Would those windows actually count as windows? I don't think so.

I've heard of that loop hole before, cool little cars though those S-cargos.

stifz

So thats 48 euro savings every 2 years for you.. Happy days.

So do ford focus fall into that category??

alastair

stifz wrote: »

So thats 48 euro savings every 2 years for you.. Happy days.

So do ford focus fall into that category??

It's the nuisance factor more than anything - tried to make an NCT appointment lately?

stifz

bit of a sore point - 3 attempts lately to get it through..

Saab Ed

stifz wrote: »

So thats 48 euro savings every 2 years for you.. Happy days.

quote]


Well not really because if you tax it privately then the road tax is much more than if you tax it commercial.

But here's a funny one I've just found out by doing a bit of research on this topic. All the Renault Megane R26s ( you know the lighter racing road legal version ) that came into this country are registered as car vans because they have no back seats ( Category B VRT ) So in theory these are also NCT/DOE exempt and the VRT is Fook all

pred racer

alastair wrote: »

It's the nuisance factor more than anything - tried to make an NCT appointment lately?

I was in nenagh yesterday for a retest (blown dim bulb on original test) I was the only punter there the 5 guys ther had a good natured argument over who got to do it and I walked out again in 4 mins with my cert. so there are lots of available slots if you are willing to travel. (obviously this does not improve the nuisance factor )

cianof

delete

Slidey

Even though the NCT will not test it it still needs to be tested to be used on a public road.

We (I am a DoE tester), at one time could not test a privately taxed van but that loophole has now being closed. You will need to test it in a DoE test station every year.

Solnskaya

Slidey wrote: »

Even though the NCT will not test it it still needs to be tested to be used on a public road.

We (I am a DoE tester), at one time could not test a privately taxed van but that loophole has now being closed. You will need to test it in a DoE test station every year.

Horses mouth, etc. Pretty much what I thought as well, can't see any worthwhile loophole staying open in Ireland longer than a "Cash for Gold" in Baghdad.

Gene Hunt

The law seems to have changed, I went to tax a small 206 van last month (always been taxed private 1.4hdi) and the local tax office wouldn't tax it without a DOE cert, told the fella on the desk that I never needed one before and he said well I don't make the rules!, you need a cert, so i booked in the DOE garage and tested it and got a full year cert, test was 84 euro,then the tax office wanted 12 euro for another cert?? ....so that's the story boys.

thephantom955

Saab Ed wrote: »

There are no NCT / DOE loopholes. There are on the other hand loopers who try to avoid NCTs and DOEs with loopy ideas. Tax it private and you need a an NCT, tax it commercial and it needs a DOE. End of.....:cool:

For your information I had to miss a driving test over all this typical irish government red tape crap! The N.C.T. office told me that my nissan almera 1.5l car van was exempt from an N.C.T., the D.O.E. office told me the same, then when i went to tax the car before my driving test they told me I COULD tax the car without an N.C.T. OR D.O.E. as I was indeed exempt from both. When I went to do my driving test which is next door to the N.C.T. center in Newbridge Co. Kildare, I was told I couldn't do my test without either an N.C.T. or D.O.E. I missed my test because of this. I then went next door as instructed to book my car van in for an N.C.T. as instructed by the driving instructer as my car van was privately insured, only to be told again the N.C.T. office(next door to the Driving test center) that I was exempt from an N.C.T. Then when I summoned the chief driving instructer from next door he came into the N.C.T. center and the two men proceeded to argue over this while i'm standing there still wondering if I needed an N.C.T.
SO BLOODY DON'T CALL ME A LOOPER!!!!!!!!!!

Slidey

You are not exempt. What you can do is tax your vehicle without proving it is tested.

You will have to have your van tested at a DoE test centre

corktina

alastair wrote: »

Not quite. If it's taxed privately the NCT won't entertain you if you try and book a test. There's ample evidence and history of small vans that fall between the two camps. That's the reality - nothing to do with 'loopers'.

.

BronsonTB

If it's classed commercial, put it through a DOE...end of...There is no loophole as already stated.
Doesn't matter if you tax it private or commercial you will still need to DOE if it's on the log book as commerical.