Kenny Perry: Did he or didn't he?

L.O.F.T

How would you view this if you saw it happen at your monthly medal?

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/blogs/localknowledge/2009/05/kenny-perry-did-he-or-didnt-he.html

PhilipMarlowe

Not really an issue as far as I'd see... You have got to be allowed to put the club behind the ball to see the lie... I'd often do this for pitch and chip shots particularly... then practice the type of shot I want to play from a similar lie.
No intent IMO

ShriekingSheet

Not guilty in my book. Exactly as JP said, when you ground the club, grass will be flattened. In order for the lie to remain absolutely unchanged, he would have had to hover the club over the rough.

stockdam

In my opinion he did.

If he was grounding his club fairly to play the shot then that would have been ok.

However he wasn't taking his stance as he was just using his right hand. He then clearly taps down the grass several times in a manner that doesn't resemble a waggle.

I don't know what his normal routine is ....... maybe he does this on every wedge shot even on the fairway and is a habit.

So did he gain an advantage.......yes. Was there intent........hard to say but I think there's enough evidence to say there was.

The big problem though was would he have been disqualified. I think it would have been harsh to disqualify him.

He knows the rules and he shouldn't be touching the grass behind the ball until he is ready to address it. Then he should be very careful not to do anything that changes or improves the lie.

ShriekingSheet

stockdam wrote: »

He knows the rules and he shouldn't be touching the grass behind the ball until he is ready to address it. Then he should be very careful not to do anything that changes or improves the lie.

Why does he have to be ready to hit? There's nothing in the rules to say he can only address it once. He's entitled to address it, then make a practice swing.

As Licksy said, you don't know exactly how the ball is lying until you address it. And the rules allow you to check the lie by addressing it, then make a few practice strokes preparing appropriately for that lie.

We've already established that addressing the ball in thick rough does improve the lie. The rules prohibit "pressing down on the ground" and the best rules official in the game has deemed this a different action.

f22

The ball is in no doubt more visible after tapping the grass behind it. The question is whether he improved the lie, which is impossible to tell. He could have placed the club 2 to 3 inches behind it because it's impossible to tell from the camera angle.

It's borderline in my book.

BUACHAILL

Yeah I agree its very hard to deem that anything other than addressing the ball to see his lie ! I also feel that he is far enough back from the ball as to not move his ball etc so even though he does ground his club as anyone would do on a setup he isnt in danger of moving the ball or flattening the grass directly behind the ball !!

Just my tupence worth

Mister Sifter

I'm with F22 on this... i think it's borderline. Hard to see how far back he's tapping the club down, but it looks from that angle like he's made it easier to get the backswing started and also to make connection with the ball.

BUACHAILL

Im just not sure if the ball is clearer to see as a result of downing the grass directly behind the ball or a couple inch's behind the ball !! I think if it was directly behind the ball it would have clearly been picked up as a penalty !! Maybe Im wrong.

BombSquad

Licksy wrote: »

You have got to be allowed to put the club behind the ball to see the lie...

Why do you need a club to see the lie?

That just gives everyone license to lash the club behind the ball and if the lie improves then so be it. You can't do it in a bunker, why do you need to do it in the rough?

I don't see why you can't take a look at the lie and then practice your stroke nearby without improving your lie.

L.O.F.T

Then there is the points raised in the next write-up, not always so black and white.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/05/golf_rules_europe_huggan_0518

Hobart

I think it is borderline tbh. It's one thing to address the ball and cause the lie to improve (which is probably unavoidable in most cases in the rough) but Perry was not addressing the ball. He can be clearly seen tap tapping away at the ground behind the ball. Imo there is no attempt to address the ball as this tapping is going on as:

1) He does not take the proper stance that one normally would when properly addressing the ball and

2) He does it all with 1 hand.

How is that addressing the ball? If he was to perform the same action with his foot, would it be viewed more leniently? Very borderline situation, and one I personally would have an issue with if I seen it first hand. The only saving grace is that the original lie of the ball cannot be seen from the 1st camera angle, so it's hard to tell how much (if any) improvement was made. What is telling is the pause in the commentators voice as he's talking about the shot, you can telll that he is amazed by what he has just seen.

L.O.F.T

Hobart wrote: »

What is telling is the pause in the commentators voice as he's talking about the shot, you can telll that he is amazed by what he has just seen.

It was the first thing i noticed also Hobart, David Feherty is doing the on course comentating with Faldo in the booth and Feherty in my opinion does pause and double takes after seeing the action from Perry. Feherty said leading up to the shot that the clump of rough behind the ball was going to be an issue, tap tap from Perry and the clump is gone....Fehertys point of the clump being an issue behind the ball is no longer an issue for Perry! Lie improved

stockdam

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

There's nothing in the rules to say he can only address it once. He's entitled to address it, then make a practice swing.

Yes that's true but in addressing the ball you have to be careful not to improve your lie.......if you do so in a fair manner then that's ok.


I've seen people "addressing" the ball several times in deep rough.

They address the ball as if to hit it forwards. Then they address it to hit it sideways. Then they address the ball to hit it backwards. Then they address it to hit it off the back foot then the front foot.

And do you know what happens? They end up building a "crop circle" around the ball and what was once a hard shot is made much easier. The clump of grass that was in front of the ball disappears when they address the ball to hit it sideways. That is cheating.

Back to Perry.

He improved his lie not by addressing the ball but by tapping down the grass.

Jasonw

At least he didn't use Gary Player's old trick of using a wood to address the ball before apparently changing his mind and hitting it with an iron.

Until that is Tom Watson called him on it saying "Gary, we're all getting pretty sick of this ****."

soundsham

in my humble opinion he improved his lie by using enough pressure to flatten the grass, therefore penalty should be applied

the rule should also state that after placing the club behind the ball the player must try to recreate the lie as best as possible in agreement with his playing partners if a different club is to be used( at least if he changes to an iron it would be some bit more fair then, or he could continue with the wood)

knowingly or not knowingly does'nt matter
ignorance of the rules is no defence,

i always thought the main mantra in golf is

"play the ball as it lies
play the course as you find it
and if you can't do either,
do what is fair
but to do what is fair
you need to know the rules of golf"

I think he failed on the first line here,still i know it's a tough call but i'd rather see him pay the penalty, than see guys up to this every week on our own courses here.

madds

I'm in agreement with Soundsham. What's he doing tapping behind the ball? I'd like to see it from a side on angle but based on what I see in the video I'd be pulling my opponent or playing partner up if I saw them do that.

Hobart

R&A Ruling on lies etc....

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line
of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
• the position or lie of his ball,
• the area of his intended stance or swing,
• his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the
hole, or
• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
• pressing a club on the ground,
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including
immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or
other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
• in fairly taking his stance,
• in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a
stroke and the stroke is made,
• in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing
ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the
teeing ground, or
• on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing
damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard – see Rule 13-4.
13-3. Building Stance
A player is entitled to place his feet firmly in taking his stance, but he
must not build a stance.

{My Emphasis}, I don't know the USGA ruling or rule on this, but I think he may have incurred the wrath of the R&A is this had happened on the ET. He clearly presses the club on the ground and he also "appears" to improve his lie.

Having said that, the vast majority of professional golfers are sticklers for this type of thing, and while I have my suspicions about this particular incident, I'm sure Perry is an honorable and totally professional golfer.

Morrisseeee

My initial reaction (from watching the video) is 'he can't do that, can he', ie. seems illegal/not-right to me !

stockdam

I don't think anyone for a minute is suggesting that Kenny Perry is anything other than an honest person.

Morrisseeee

Reading the rule above: Whats the position if you move twigs, small impediments, small stones from around your ball if you find yourself in the trees ?

Hobart

stockdam wrote: »

I don't think anyone for a minute is suggesting that Kenny Perry is anything other than an honest person.

Given the apparent furor around his actions, here (and elsewhere), his actions have to be called into question. His intent and honesty are a completely different matter.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Reading the rule above: Whats the position if you move twigs, small impediments, small stones from around your ball if you find yourself in the trees ?

Loose impediments are fine, as long as you are not in a hazard and there is not a local rule in place.

stockdam

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Reading the rule above: Whats the position if you move twigs, small impediments, small stones from around your ball if you find yourself in the trees ?

If they are loose then you can move them. However if your ball moves then it's a penalty.

You can't move or break fixed or growing objects.

Hobart

stockdam wrote: »

If they are loose then you can move them.

As long as you are not in a hazard that is, unless a local rule allows it.

thegen

OK I have watched it 10+ times.

I think the camera angle is not showing us the full story. I do feel though that there is no need to ground the club three times, apparently patting the grass behind the ball.

It is borderline, I dont think Perry or any Pro for that matter is a cheat.

soundsham

should have had a poll on this

no prob with who did this be it kenny perry, or penney kerry the famous english female of old:p the player is irrelevant

bottom line for me is he improved his lie as if that was gentle when tapping the ground it hate to see him use pressure, he'd leave the head buried in the ground

irishtoffee

Just watched and can't believe he got away with that.Clearly tapping the grass down imo.

X-Calibre

Watched it a few times and its there's definitely more than checking his stance/lie there. The first couple of times he grounds his club are just about fine, but theres one point where he blatantly pats down the grass quite hard.

GreeBo

I think he is "just" trying to see how much the ball is sitting up on the grass and/or how deep the grass is.
But I guess that means he is testing the lie and is thus a breach of the rules.
I dont think he is trying to improve the lie, but I do think he is testing it.

Its most likely a subconscious act, no way is he trying to improve it.

When Im in this situation (unsure of the lie, not a major playoff ) I try to find some grass nearby that looks the same and test that to my hearts content.

I would see no issue if he took his stance, put the club behind the ball and then decided, "hmm this ball is 2 inches above the ground, I need a different club."
Obviously there are limits to how long you can do that before you are deemed to be improving your lie (ala Mr Player)

Then again, golf has funny rules like that. You can pull out a 3 wood when u are near a staked tree and claim relief as you would damage the tree, even though you werent really going to hit the wood. Then you get a drop that puts you in a better position where you actually can hit the 3 wood. IS that cheating or using the rules? I dunno.

bottom line for me is he improved his lie as if that was gentle when tapping the ground it hate to see him use pressure, he'd leave the head buried in the ground

The other point raised is that he could actually be a foot away from the ball and just testing similiar grass. From the camera angle its hard to tell, and moving grass that far away would still make the ball easier to se, but wouldnt influence the shot at all. (Unless he was planning on starting his divot 12 inches behind the ball)

soundsham

When Im in this situation (unsure of the lie, not a major playoff ) I try to find some grass nearby that looks the same and test that to my hearts content.

no prob here but if you did this on your next shot through line you would be penalised, thats why you practise away to the side of where you are playing from,

seem to remember garcia on the back 9 on sat @ carnoustie belting one into the high stuff, never called fore either the little sh1t, going up to the ball and then practising a few feet down the mound in front of him, the guys on tv. questioned it so did the referee but he was deemed not to be on the line of the shot through the ball with his practise swongs, he was queried and he was way ahead of the ball,

perry defo gave himself an easier shot imo.

Sandwich

Had heard about it but not seen it. Seeing it now it looks dreadful.

He improves his lie.

At the start you cannot see the ball. After his intervention you can.

At best he made a mistake not calling the penalty on himself after unintentionaly improving the lie when testing the grass. At worst he even improved the lie deliberately.