Historical Fact or Fiction?

Darr3nG

History is written by the victors...

How true is this?

Do you think it's still possible to uncover a document etc. that tells a different story to accepted history. Or do we know it all? Specifically in recorded history.

A few years back, I was working in a place that had just installed a climate-controlled archive room, and got to look through a box of letters and documents. It contained mostly letters and bills, from the late 1800s, nothing too exciting. The staff told me that most of the documents (donated and collected over the years) had yet to be read and catalogued. Led me to think, what if in here there is a different accounting of some event? Nothing too dramatic (DaVinci Code, Vatican Conspiracy etc.), a land dispute or title deed, perhaps.

Does anyon have any examples of this?

getz

Darr3nG wrote: »

History is written by the victors...

How true is this?

Do you think it's still possible to uncover a document etc. that tells a different story to accepted history. Or do we know it all? Specifically in recorded history.

A few years back, I was working in a place that had just installed a climate-controlled archive room, and got to look through a box of letters and documents. It contained mostly letters and bills, from the late 1800s, nothing too exciting. The staff told me that most of the documents (donated and collected over the years) had yet to be read and catalogued. Led me to think, what if in here there is a different accounting of some event? Nothing too dramatic (DaVinci Code, Vatican Conspiracy etc.), a land dispute or title deed, perhaps.

Does anyon have any examples of this?

yes i have a lot of old newspapers dating from the middle of the 19th century it surprising how the news of the day was looked upon[now our history ]

ManFromAtlantis

cant help. but good thread.

Darr3nG

getz wrote: »

yes i have a lot of old newspapers dating from the middle of the 19th century it surprising how the news of the day was looked upon[now our history ]

Newspapers are generally concerned with current events, usually where the facts aren't complete or the event not finished.

Do any of the articles refer to earlier events, the history of that time, and if so, how do they compare to what our version of those events are today?

brianthebard

Yes there is definitely a lot of history yet to be told. Social history in particular is a whole genre within the discipline that has been pretty neglected for a while. That's bad, but its also a great opportunity for people who are interested in pursuing that avenue of inquiry. And although some people in this country dislike it, the Revisionist school of history has been responsible for breathing new life into old topics. As one of my lecturers said, all history is revisionist.

getz

Darr3nG wrote: »

Newspapers are generally concerned with current events, usually where the facts aren't complete or the event not finished.

Do any of the articles refer to earlier events, the history of that time, and if so, how do they compare to what our version of those events are today?

they are interesting in a way because in that moral you always have to ask your self ;would i have done the same , and made the same mistakes?-take this irish story in THE GRAPHIC saturday january 12 1889--IRISH EVICTIONS-the falcarragh evictions have attracted considerable attention from the violence displayed;but,while sympathising with the poor dupes who ,at the bidding of a tryannical organisation,find themselves ousted from their holdings in the depth of winter, and who also in some cases have been commiitted to prison for their acts of lawless violence---the evictions of recent years have only been undertaken after the refusal of concessions on the part of the land owners which, in any other country in the world would be regarded as extraordinarily liberal.and in most cases ,too the tenants would willingly have accepted these concessions, but they were overawed by the sinister organisation of the plan of campain.surely the goverment ought to take active measures to curb these mischievous terrorists,and not let the suffering fall solely on the constables.in any continental country such mischief-makers would meet with scant mercy----then it gose on to say the shopkeepers are forbidden to sell to the persons who work the evicted farms,and the produce of those farms has to be sent elswere--;tout va bien ici le pain; distress begets discontent, and discontent just suits the advocates of disorder---that was the information most people at that time would read[those who could read] if only we could have seen years ahead

MarchDub

getz wrote: »

they are interesting in a way because in that moral you always have to ask your self ;would i have done the same , and made the same mistakes?-take this irish story in THE GRAPHIC saturday january 12 1889--IRISH EVICTIONS-the falcarragh evictions have attracted considerable attention from the violence displayed;but,while sympathising with the poor dupes who ,at the bidding of a tryannical organisation,find themselves ousted from their holdings in the depth of winter, and who also in some cases have been commiitted to prison for their acts of lawless violence---the evictions of recent years have only been undertaken after the refusal of concessions on the part of the land owners which, in any other country in the world would be regarded as extraordinarily liberal.and in most cases ,too the tenants would willingly have accepted these concessions, but they were overawed by the sinister organisation of the plan of campain.surely the goverment ought to take active measures to curb these mischievous terrorists,and not let the suffering fall solely on the constables.in any continental country such mischief-makers would meet with scant mercy----then it gose on to say the shopkeepers are forbidden to sell to the persons who work the evicted farms,and the produce of those farms has to be sent elswere--;tout va bien ici le pain; distress begets discontent, and discontent just suits the advocates of disorder---that was the information most people at that time would read[those who could read] if only we could have seen years ahead

Getz - I think you have quoted this same source previously in another thread and been answered but here we go again.


This is an extremely biased report. Newspapers are not necessarily reliable sources for sound historical references. Newspapers back then were no different from today - they were usually partisan and supported a particular political point of view. Other newspapers of the time cite the plan of campaign very differently - as indeed Parnell intended it to be non violent and a way for people to lodge a protest without resorting to arms. The fact is the authorities of the time wanted NO REACTION from the tenant class. Violent OR non violent. They just wanted Irish tenants to sit still and take what was dished out – hence we have egregious biased reports like this in establishment newspapers.

MarchDub

Here is a report of an eviction in Galway from a journalist of the Freeman's Journal an Irish newspaper of the period -

[font=&quot]It was the most appalling sight I ever witnessed: women, young and old, running wildly to and fro with small portions of their property to save it from the wreck - the screaming of the children, and wild wailings of the mothers driven from home and shelter...In the first instance the roofs and portions of the wall only were thrown down. But that Friday night the wretched creatures pitched a few poles slant-wise against the walls covering them with thatch in order to procure shelter for the night. When this was perceived the next day the bailiffs were dispatched with orders to pull down all the walls and root up the foundations in order to prevent the poor people from daring to take shelter amid the ruins.[/font]

McArmalite

Orwell who once wrote - " Who controls the present controls the past. Who controls the past controls the future."

Denerick

There is a certain amount of victors writing the history. But for modern history this has changed dramatically. In both WWI and WWII we have been able to write and read history from both a German and Allied perspective, due to the fact that the governments respective state documents are intact. The Germans destroyed their Auschwitz archives etc. but the state documents are still around.

I think when we can go further back a lot of the historical sources are written by the victors (Before modern buraucracy) mainly monks and priests, the only literate people of the time really.

conchubhar1

if you take archaeology and a few other things along with historical sources i would say this is not neccessarily true

but on the whole - of course the winners tend to skew things for their own purpose but then you could also call into play independent sources

its part of the analysis - have to take everything into consideration and make a judgement

Dionysus

Darr3nG wrote: »

History is written by the victors...

How true is this?

Do you think it's still possible to uncover a document etc. that tells a different story to accepted history. Or do we know it all? Specifically in recorded history.

A few years back, I was working in a place that had just installed a climate-controlled archive room, and got to look through a box of letters and documents. It contained mostly letters and bills, from the late 1800s, nothing too exciting. The staff told me that most of the documents (donated and collected over the years) had yet to be read and catalogued. Led me to think, what if in here there is a different accounting of some event? Nothing too dramatic (DaVinci Code, Vatican Conspiracy etc.), a land dispute or title deed, perhaps.

Does anyon have any examples of this?

There are plenty of examples of this, despite Kenneth Nicholls having pillaged most if not all archives related to Irish history in the past 40 years - the bastard

There are still quite a large number of collections in private hands. Many of these collections are actually in England and with descendents of Irish families in the continent (the Anglo-Irish often moved back with centuries of Irish historical family papers). There are more archives still across Europe, in the Irish colleges and in other colleges, as well as port books, university registers, correspondence relating to Ireland in other states. If you have a reading knowledge of Latin, you will have 100 lifetimes of sources to study.

Indeed all historians who are awarded a PhD are only given it on the grounds that they have added an original thesis to the body of academic research, always meaning that they have given a different emphasis on historical sources and often meaning they have discovered previously unacknowledged manuscripts.

History is great fun. It just doesn't pay well, and has very very little opportunity for ever getting a permanent tenured job. You can make some great discoveries that really satisfy. However, keep your head firmly on your shoulders regarding making a career out of it.

Denerick

(the Anglo-Irish often moved back with centuries of Irish historical family papers)

It was to the enduring shame of our national culture that the Anglo Irish were forced out of the country by the IRA during the Civil War. Richard Bagwell's home house in Tipperary for example was gutted, along with all the documents he had accrued in his volumes of Ireland under the Tudors and Ireland under the Stewarts.

Not to mention Rory O Connor and the Public Records Office. Heard a story recently that Eoin Mac Neill and another historian approached O Connor and begged him to vacate the PRO and allow the Free State to take care of the documents. O Connor just kept saying no. Mac Neill turned to the other guy and said 'Theres a f_cking architect for ya'.

The word 'small minds' doesn't even begin to describe the mentality of the IRA then, or now.

sliabh

You don't necessarily have to recover a lost document to change the view of history. Back in the mid 1970's FW Winterbottom became the first person to lift the lid on ULTRA, and the fact that the Allies had been reading German transmissions for most of WWII.

As well as bringing this fact to light he championed the view that the Allies victory was "in fact, a very narrow shave, and the reader may like to ponder [...] whether [...] we might have won [without] Ultra".

Before 1975 how many people knew that the Churchill had told the King that it was ULTRA which won the war?

Joe1919

Darr3nG wrote: »

History is written by the victors...

How true is this?

Do you think it's still possible to uncover a document etc. that tells a different story to accepted history. Or do we know it all? Specifically in recorded history.

Does anyon have any examples of this?

The discovery of the forgery of the 'Donation of Constantine' which the Papacy used to claim the Western Roman Empire is an example of a discovery that contributed to the general disatisfaction with the papacy before the reformation and hence probably contributed to a huge change in the World.

McArmalite

Denerick wrote: »

It was to the enduring shame of our national culture that the Anglo Irish were forced out of the country by the IRA during the Civil War.

Their were very few attacks on the parasites known as the Anglo Irish during the Civil War, most of the retaliatory attacks were during 1919 to the signing of the treaty.

Not to mention Rory O Connor and the Public Records Office. Heard a story recently that Eoin Mac Neill and another historian approached O Connor and begged him to vacate the PRO and allow the Free State to take care of the documents. O Connor just kept saying no. Mac Neill turned to the other guy and said 'Theres a f_cking architect for ya'.

It was the Free State army who blew up the Four Courts by firing shells into it, not the IRA.

The word 'small minds' doesn't even begin to describe the mentality of the IRA then, or now.

Would that include Michael Brennan ??

Denerick

Their were very few attacks on the parasites known as the Anglo during the Civil War

'nuff said.

brianthebard

Play nice kids.

Denerick

brianthebard wrote: »

Play nice kids.

Did I say anything? I suppose its ok to refer to Protestants as parasites.

brianthebard

It was a pre-emptive suggestion, no need to be offended.