Puppy Farming / Sick dogs

cloudy day

I see the other post was also removed. for legal reasons I was told. Can anyone figure why that would be ? As there were no names involved.

Ordinary Joe needs to be aware of what puppy farmers are, what they do, how they operate and NOT to buy from them.

If your buying a pup get good advice first. that way you won't end up spending a fortune on a sick pup that may die.

There was already a case where a breeder was taken to small claims court and the judge awarded that the breeder had to re-imburse the buyer and pay costs.

ISDW

Unfortunately, as far as I remember, there were names involved in the other thread.

I'm glad that the judge came down against the puppy farmer, maybe thats the only way to get things changed, hitting them in the pocket.

Clare Bear

It's a pity these people can't be named and shamed on here. I understand it's for legal reasons that they can't be but that annoys me even more.

kraggy

ISDW wrote: »

Unfortunately, as far as I remember, there were names involved in the other thread.

I'm glad that the judge came down against the puppy farmer, maybe thats the only way to get things changed, hitting them in the pocket.

When was this? Have you a link?

The Sweeper

The other thread was closed because people were advocating violence against the perpetrators, and boards.ie will not be a platform for incitement to violence.

cloudy day

OMG looks like things disintegrated then since the last time I saw it. Pity. Quite right, people should not resort to threats of violence and throwing insults. Could they of not just been banned from posting though.

I know the puppy farmer where the alleged outbreak of canine brucellosis was named, he was named in the national newspapers.

The point to the thread was supposed to of been how the suspected outbreak has/has not been handled by the relevent depts. Whether or not it was confirmed, I have good reason to believe it was, canine brucellosis has the potential to be an endimic, is a zoonosis ( humans can get it ) and should be treated seriously.

Puppy traffickers - as they are calling them in uk - are putting ads in papers here to buy loads of litters of pups of all different breeds, non reg will do, and they are taking them to England by the van full and selling them on for profit. They are buying from puppy farmers who keep these dogs in deplorable conditions.

It's the dogs who are suffering. We know there is no law here against puppy farming, therefore people need to know what is going on and NOT to buy these pups, even if they feel sorry for them.

No we cannot name and shame. But we can say - " I know someone that bought xxx dog in xxx village etc " that way pet owners will know not to go to that area for a pup.

See puppy love uk forum. There are many regulations and laws in uk concerning welfare, trading standards, legalities etc for breeding, housing, selling of dogs.

Although I must state I do not agree with people getting very anti and violent to others.

Please share your views and opinions, if we can stop one person buying a farmed pup it will be worth it.

The person who was awarded against by judge was named in the regional newspapers.

Munster Gal

Clody Day, can I ask why you think it definitely was canine brucellosis? It terrifies me to think of this becoming an epidemic, on what information do you base your assertion?

ISDW

What would also really help I think, is having to have some kind of documentation and control on dogs going in and out of the island of Ireland, even over to mainland UK. Yes, it could inconvenience people taking their dogs on holiday, and to shows, but not necessarily. Even if all dogs going over had to be vaccinated, just as if they were going into boarding kennels, it would be even better if they all had to be microchipped as well, maybe show their licence. Then perhaps there could be a limit put on how many dogs one person could transport in a year.

Dav

First of all, maybe I should have introduced myself here the last time I posted. My name is Dav and I am one of 2 Community Managers employed by boards.ie. Part of my job is to deal with "the outside world" when they want to talk to the site. This involves things like requests for advertising, interaction with media and legal complaints etc.

I have had several emails and phone calls to the people in question. They assured me that the Canine Berculosis issue was investigated by the relevant authorities and the farm given the all clear.

The moral issues surrounding a puppy farm are a seperate issue and no one on this site is going to stop reasonable and logical debate on the issue. What people were talking about here was taking violent action against a farmer that has never been prosecuted on any grounds of animal cruelty or neglect. To say that a farmer is mis-treating the animals is liabel and is punishable under Irish law. If I see such things again, I may very well issue site bans. It's also worth noting that Irish law is not UK law and all mentions of what goes on in the UK has no real relevance.

I hope this clarifies this site's position on things. If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me.

Dav

peasant

Dav wrote: »

What people were talking about here was taking violent action against a farmer that has never been prosecuted on any grounds of animal cruelty or neglect. To say that a farmer is mis-treating the animals is liabel and is punishable under Irish law. If I see such things again, I may very well issue site bans. It's also worth noting that Irish law is not UK law and all mentions of what goes on in the UK has no real relevance.

I fully agree with the official stance of boards.ie in regards to libel laws and also agree that threating people with violence is simply not on ...libel or not.

There is however another issue in relation to puppy farming:

a farmer that has never been prosecuted on any grounds of animal cruelty or neglect

There is a very simple explanation for this:
Irish animal welfare law is totally deficient when it comes to puppy farming (and many other issues of animal welfare). As far as dogs are concerned, as long as they are provided with food, water and shelter, the Irish law does consider them cared for.

It does not matter to the law that the dogs may never see the light of day,
it does not matter to the law that these dogs may never be excercised or walked,
it does not matter to the law that these dogs may spend their whole life in a cage with no contacts to humans or other dogs, except for breeding purposes
it does not mattter to the law that the breeding bitches may have two litters per year until the point where they die from exhaustion,
it does not matter to the law that the puppies "produced" there may never be properly socialised, thus becoming potentially disturbed or even dangerous later in life
it does not matter to the law whether or not these dogs receive their regular vaccinations
etc, etc, etc

Unless you keep dogs in absolutely apalling conditions, where they show signs of malnutrion, dehydration or physical injuries, there can and will be NO convictions for cruelty or neglect.

Puppy farming is legal in this country, doesn't make it right though.

So the question for this forum is this:

How can we/should we discuss this issue on boards without falling foul of the law / boards.ie libel guidelines?

Dav

That's fair enough peasant, but it's not up to boards.ie to change the law, it's up to it's members If people want to get a proper group together to try to enact change in the law, we'll gladly give them somewhere to talk about it and form a committee etc and get going. It's worked with the Ireland OffLine group.

Our man in Havana

Guys if you want to get some change in the Irish law in regards to animals - join ANVIL (animals need a voice in legislation)

We WILL not allow threats of violence on this board & as Dav has said we have to make sure we do not allow libellous accusations to remain on the board - if this thread descends to the level of the last thread - permanent bans will be issued!

peasant

Dav wrote: »

That's fair enough peasant, but it's not up to boards.ie to change the law, it's up to it's members If people want to get a proper group together to try to enact change in the law, we'll gladly give them somewhere to talk about it and form a committee etc and get going. It's worked with the Ireland OffLine group.

Bond-007 wrote: »

Guys if you want to get some change in the Irish law in regards to animals - join ANVIL (animals need a voice in legislation)

We WILL not allow threats of violence on this board & as Dav has said we have to make sure we do not allow libellous accusations to remain on the board - if this thread descends to the level of the last thread - permanent bans will be issued!

Surely there must be a middle way to discuss puppy farming without either resorting to naming&shaming / threatening or starting a full blown animal rights movement here on boards?

Recent threads on this board are proof enough that there still are a lot of people out the who haven't the faintest idea what puppy farming actually is (and means for the dogs) and who happily continue to buy "produce" of puppy farmers through dubious outlets.

Can we please have clarification on one point here:

If someone were to outline common puppy farming practices (without naming names or threatening anything) and were to call those practises "cruel" or "neglect" or "immoral" despite the law not backing this up ...is that also libellous? Can we talk about puppy farms at all (in a civilised manner)? Or what's the story here?

Our man in Havana

We can happily discuss the ethics of puppy farming or mass breeding of any animals really.

However we will not tolerate naming & shaming or threats - if the subject can be discussed as adults then let the debate start - just be warned I can & will ban those who get out of line!

cloudy day

There are NO LAWS regarding puppy farming / legislation. and to be honest none of us will change them.

However, I thought there is legislation in place regarding animal cruelty. But CRUELTY HAS TO BE PROVED. Until then a man is innocent until proven guilty. This is why I say that without actually naming anyone guys just state if you bought a sick puppy or saw dogs in a pitiful state, the area where you bought it/saw it. Post links to newspaper articles which have named these people, then we can read them ourselves.

eg www.iwsocietyofireland.com the sunday times article of june 10 2007 I think that's ok, correct me if I'm wrong.

Our man in Havana

Post links to newspaper articles which have named these people, then we can read them ourselves.

Our legal people may not agree with that.

cloudy day

Ok Bond. Can you find out and let us know, then we'll know not to do it.

Munstergal

I said it was a SUSPECTED case, ya know, alleged. I emailed the dept of agriculture and the minister for environment to find out if it had/had not been confirmed, as did a lot of other people from across the water. They are very concerned as they know there are hundreds of farmed pups travelling in to the country that could take the disease with them. They call it " puppy Trafficking "

There is a lot more hype and publicity over there as they have their own problems with farming, but there is legislation and council by-laws in place to deal with it.

I am very surprised that there hasn't been statement issued here to state the facts on C.B. Especially when there is a major dog show coming up and people will be travelling here far and wide with their dogs.


I'd never even heard of C.B before this, that's because it's so rare. But, it would seem, due to the devastating conditions in which these dogs are farmed it is one of the reasons why now C.B is occuring. They have had reported cases abroad and it is treated very seriously as it non-curable, spreads quickly and is a zoonosis - that is humans can get it. Although the risk to people is slight, you would need to handle the aborted pups to be at risk.

Foot and mouth was reported to of been brought to this country by a puppy trafficker. It appears they are well monitored in u.k.

I'm not an animal rights activist or anti anything, but I don't like the way these dogs are kept and treated by puppy farmers, the same as I don't like battery hen systems or any factory farming of animals.

Our man in Havana

Ok with regard to the legal issues - lets just say boards.ie is owned by private people & does not have the resources of a multinational conglomerate newspaper corporation - therefore we have to be very careful with what is posted on the forum.

As a moderator I have to act in the best interests of the owners of boards.ie - Please pm Dav for more information on this matter (which is what Dav said in his post in this thread)

Just because something is written in a newspaper does not make it true! So please when posting any info up do not quote names & addresses. Independent newspapers have millions to defend libel actions - we don't!

If you are not happy with this find another forum. Here we expect people to follow the rules.

cloudy day

Totally agree Bond.

Just want to make sure everybody knows exactly what not to say so that we can chat about things without overstepping the boundaries.