The demise of the amature/social game

stephen_n

Thought sparked by a comment in another thread, why has social rugby declined so much since the arrival of the professional game. The physical demands of the game? loss of amature ethos in the clubs that went professional? Or something else?

I returned to playing at J4 level this season after an 8 year lay off and TBH I don't find the game that much more physically demanding these days obviously my body takes a little longer to get over the matches at 36 than 26 but all the same I really don't think it is that much more demanding at junior level. I do remember a change in attitude in my last few years playing with Greystones with a slight detachment from the senior team but not that major. When I started playing with Greystones we had teams going down to J8 and for a few years two J8 cup teams now most clubs struggle to field a J4 teams so why do you think less people play club rugby after leaving school?

anonymous_joe

stephen_n wrote: »

Thought sparked by a comment in another thread, why has social rugby declined so much since the arrival of the professional game. The physical demands of the game? loss of amature ethos in the clubs that went professional? Or something else?

I returned to playing at J4 level this season after an 8 year lay off and TBH I don't find the game that much more physically demanding these days obviously my body takes a little longer to get over the matches at 36 than 26 but all the same I really don't think it is that much more demanding at junior level. I do remember a change in attitude in my last few years playing with Greystones with a slight detachment from the senior team but not that major. When I started playing with Greystones we had teams going down to J8 and for a few years two J8 cup teams now most clubs struggle to field a J4 teams so why do you think less people play club rugby after leaving school?

When I was a kid, we had no choice but to play in school.

However, the ethos was all about fun, about enjoying yourself and so on. That was in a junior school.

When I joined secondary school, from the age of 13 or so, the emphasis was on winning. The physical demands increased massively, up to a point that by the age of 15, those who still wanted to play the game were beginning to spend fair amounts of time in the gym, and on fitness training. That's just not enjoyable.

Later on towards the end of school, there's a big split between those playing SCT level rugby, with its near professional set up, and those who aren't arsed. The latter category in my school included people whom I know are better than guys involved in the Leinster Academy. They just had no desire for the game.

Especially at this level, phyiscal development becomes crucial - I know some guys who are obscenely fit - they excelled at low level rugby despite nothing approximating talent because they could keep going longer, and hit guys of equivalent size a lot harder. That in itself drives a lot of casual people who enjoy playing the game away. There's no point getting hurt a lot in the tackle constantly. You need to play with guys of the same level of fitness, which cannot be guarenteed.

Again, the area between the age of about 14 and 17 or so lacks fun. So much emphasis goes on bulking up the first team that those left behind just can't compete safely anymore. At this stage a huge number leave the game. Much more than after school actually. Finally, at 18, lots of guys come out of an environment that's just too intense. They've no hunger left for the game at any competitive level.

Then you come to the great mass of people who don't really know what to do about rugby - if I meet the lads, I can play a game of football, so long as the numbers on either side are equal, it's grand. Rugby doesn't allow for that. Moreover, if you (like me) are/were a forward, games like tag and touch rugby are just boring. I don't want to run around people, it's hard and challenging. Running through people's much easier.

But seriously, I've not got the time to dedicate to one or two training sessions a week, followed by a game every weekend. It's not possible. Because there's no less organised way of playing, I don't play anymore.

Again, I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons, but that'd account for me certainly, and a lot of people I've known.

stephen_n

I suppose I came through schools when things were a little less serious, never being good enough to make the SCT but enjoyed playing on the B team and that was how I came up to club rugby, never got a look in at 19's as there were 45 players in the extended squad but stuck it out untill going up to J4 level at the end of the season. As for the training twice a week sure that was always the case and very few junior teams have players who train twice a week every week lol

Serenity Now!

stephen_n wrote: »

so why do you think less people play club rugby after leaving school?

- Money. In this nouveau riche country, people would appear to opt for the luxuries of employment and just can't be bothered. Face it, Ireland is not exactly the most sporty or even outdoor of countries around hence its low playerbase compared to those interested in the sport. Your comment about now wanting to train would indicate this.

- The 'Soccer mom' effect. Rugby union is a full-contact sport. People don't want to get hurt and prefer to watch the game than play it.

If schools didn't force pupils to play the sport, there would be even less players involved. I played rugby union in school and I can say with hand on heart that the ethos was not all about 'fun' but 'winning'.
Personally I'm glad that the days of 'giving it a lash' are dying out.

The sport should be developed in the clubs and not the schools in my opinion. The transition from school to club is too difficult for many both in playing and in being a member.

Serenity Now!

Serenity Now! wrote: »

- Money. In this nouveau riche country, people would appear to opt for the luxuries of employment and just can't be bothered. Face it, Ireland is not exactly the most sporty or even outdoor of countries around hence its low playerbase compared to those interested in the sport. Your comment about now wanting to train would indicate this.

- The 'Soccer mom' effect. Rugby union is a full-contact sport. People don't want to get hurt and prefer to watch the game than play it.

If schools didn't force pupils to play the sport, there would be even less players involved. I played rugby union in school and I can say with hand on heart that the ethos was not all about 'fun' but 'winning'.
Personally I'm glad that the days of 'giving it a lash' are dying out.

The sport should be developed in the clubs and not the schools in my opinion. The transition from school to club is too difficult for many both in playing and in being a member.

Thats a very good point.

The rugby schools in Dublin force you to play,no choice.
Maybe people outside Leinster didnt know that,is it the same in rugby schools around the country?
With the emphisis on winning .
This can put lots of people off the game imo.

stephen_n

Mariana Clever Band-aid wrote: »

Thats a very good point.

The rugby schools in Dublin force you to play,no choice.
Maybe people outside Leinster didnt know that,is it the same in rugby schools around the country?
With the emphisis on winning .
This can put lots of people off the game imo.

Don't really remember being forced to play Rugby except in second class or in PE TBH the only reason I went to school at all was to play rugby lol

Shelflife

I think that while the skill levels havnt improve dramactically the size od the players has, played 2nds for my local club for years and we would turn up on sun after being out on sat night.

now you see the lads sucking on isotonic drinks, and chewing jaffa cakes. There are more players doing weights and bulking up and when they hit you , you know all about it, in order for me to play without fear of getting hurt during a game i would need to train twice a week and hit the gym as well. i dont have the time for that so while id like to play ...... i dont.

Luckycharm

Schools in dublin do not force you to play rugby but often it was the only sport played in the school.
Stephen N I remember when there were J8s etc I played on every team in my old club from J7s to 1sts(only once or twice when very stuck). When you last played though the Senior team would have included Leinster/provincial players if they had any- nowadays none of them play for their clubs anymore. Also player numbers are starting to improve again about 3/4 years ago it was really dire- the same senior club could barely field a J4 team. Now quite a few clubs are fielding 2 J4 teams plus a few Junior clubs are growing.
For example for the 1st time in history a junior club won the J3 league- that would have been unheard of 5/6 years ago.

Luckycharm

Shelflife wrote: »

I think that while the skill levels havnt improve dramactically the size od the players has, played 2nds for my local club for years and we would turn up on sun after being out on sat night.

now you see the lads sucking on isotonic drinks, and chewing jaffa cakes. There are more players doing weights and bulking up and when they hit you , you know all about it, in order for me to play without fear of getting hurt during a game i would need to train twice a week and hit the gym as well. i dont have the time for that so while id like to play ...... i dont.

I guess it depends at what level you play at- I am playing 27 years from being a kid and have never hit a gym in my life ( I hate them) then again I am a back

NickNolte

I went to a rugby school but don't remember being forced to play. Mind you, I did want to play so I suppose I didn't need any convincing. There were certainly a few guys playing that looked pretty disinterested alright so you'd wonder why they ever bothered. That was about 18 years ago though. The hits and physical demands at JCT and particularly SCT level are a lot higher than they were when I was in school.

Oisinjm

You don't get forced into playing at my school and its a Dublin Rugby school. Sometimes those that are good that want to quit are talked out of it, but thats about the extent of it.

anonymous_joe

Serenity Now! wrote: »

- Money. In this nouveau riche country, people would appear to opt for the luxuries of employment and just can't be bothered. Face it, Ireland is not exactly the most sporty or even outdoor of countries around hence its low playerbase compared to those interested in the sport. Your comment about now wanting to train would indicate this.

Ah I think it's unfair calling Ireland an unsporty nation.

There's huge numbers playing foobtall, Gah, hurling, rugby, etc. I'd be fairly amazed if the numbers playing here are massively different to those in other countries with similar climates.

NickNolte wrote: »

I went to a rugby school but don't remember being forced to play. Mind you, I did want to play so I suppose I didn't need any convincing. There were certainly a few guys playing that looked pretty disinterested alright so you'd wonder why they ever bothered. That was about 18 years ago though. The hits and physical demands at JCT and particularly SCT level are a lot higher than they were when I was in school.

Forced is one way to put it, but aged 7 in my old school you played rugby. There was no choice involved, but getting 7 year olds to play sports isnt too hard.

They allowed people to stop playing in the early teens when they begin to focus on building winning teams and have worked out whose worth keeping. ^^

Tim Robbins

stephen_n wrote: »

Thought sparked by a comment in another thread, why has social rugby declined so much since the arrival of the professional game. The physical demands of the game? loss of amature ethos in the clubs that went professional? Or something else?

I think J4 games should only be 70 mins in length and they should be allowed to use as many subs as they wish.

I think since the game has gone professional, clubs have found it hard to keep ploughing money, time and resources into the grass roots.

stephen_n

Shelflife wrote: »

I think that while the skill levels havnt improve dramactically the size od the players has, played 2nds for my local club for years and we would turn up on sun after being out on sat night.

now you see the lads sucking on isotonic drinks, and chewing jaffa cakes. There are more players doing weights and bulking up and when they hit you , you know all about it, in order for me to play without fear of getting hurt during a game i would need to train twice a week and hit the gym as well. i dont have the time for that so while id like to play ...... i dont.

I suppose to a certain extent that's true although not so much around J4 level. Think I was heavier playing in my 20's than i am now but then again I'm alot more conditioned now than I was then as i do go to the gym at least 3 days a week anyway but still don't percieve the game as being more physical now. I still remember my first game of junior rugby thinking this is deadly running rings around all the old farts untill one of them hit me and i swear i have never been hit so hard before or after!

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think J4 games should only be 70 mins in length and they should be allowed to use as many subs as they wish.

I think since the game has gone professional, clubs have found it hard to keep ploughing money, time and resources into the grass roots.

Funny our last match in the cup the branch introduced a new rule which allowed rolling substitutions of 12 each side during the game i.e. players could come on and go off as if for blood substitutions which helped me greatly as it was on Donnybrook and that's a big pitch to be running around at my age :pac::pac: but think this will help greatly at the lower levels of rugby!

hardCopy

stephen_n wrote: »

I suppose to a certain extent that's true although not so much around J4 level. Think I was heavier playing in my 20's than i am now but then again I'm alot more conditioned now than I was then as i do go to the gym at least 3 days a week anyway but still don't percieve the game as being more physical now. I still remember my first game of junior rugby thinking this is deadly running rings around all the old farts untill one of them hit me and i swear i have never been hit so hard before or after!



Funny our last match in the cup the branch introduced a new rule which allowed rolling substitutions of 12 each side during the game i.e. players could come on and go off as if for blood substitutions which helped me greatly as it was on Donnybrook and that's a big pitch to be running around at my age :pac::pac: but think this will help greatly at the lower levels of rugby!

The only problem I'd see with that is that it makes it even harder for teams that struggle to assemble a full squad every week.

stephen_n

hardCopy wrote: »

The only problem I'd see with that is that it makes it even harder for teams that struggle to assemble a full squad every week.

Not really as players who come off can go back on so as long as their not injured techinically you need smaller squads

Tim Robbins

stephen_n wrote: »

Funny our last match in the cup the branch introduced a new rule which allowed rolling substitutions of 12 each side during the game i.e. players could come on and go off as if for blood substitutions which helped me greatly as it was on Donnybrook and that's a big pitch to be running around at my age :pac::pac: but think this will help greatly at the lower levels of rugby!

Yeah I know. But I'd get rid of the 12 cards things, and just let them on and off.

I was looking for yellow to put someone in the bin and had a load of blue and greens to get through before I found one. Felt a right t*t!

stephen_n

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah I know. But I'd get rid of the 12 cards things, and just let them on and off.

I was looking for yellow to put someone in the bin and had a load of blue and greens to get through before I found one. Felt a right t*t!

:pac::pac: Yeah can see your point mind you, refs would need to be doing head counts at every set piece without the cards!

sickpuppy

Number of reasons for the demise in my opinion.

Irish weather jesus getting the shyte knocked out of ya on a cold winters day may lose its appeal after 20 years and the body can only take so much.

Spare time can be a problem for many people wives girlfriends extra college courses work commitments finding the time may not be high in peoples priorities.

Professionalism in reality if you play for a senior club j3 or j4 is gonna be a very low priority neglect can be problem

Tag rugby ive played for 6 years and enjoy it less chance of you getting injured chasing some fine young thing with two strips of cloth on her hips than getting trampled on at the bottom of a ruck ive seen many guys i played underage with playing tag and always ask are you still playing real rugby and the answer is usually no nice playing on balmy summer evenings

Injuries it can be avery attritional game and the thoughts of ending up with a limp or permanent backtrouble surely stops guys playing too