My major issue IN (not with) Buddhism

RossFixxxed

Hi guys,

I've had one recurring problem with practice. The more I do this, stay mindful, concentrate, try to cultivate correct states etc. the worse I rebound on the other side. Good morning session, during the day, evening usually means I have a terrible next day/evening. Everything seems to bounce back 10 times harder.

Has anyone encountered this.

Part of me thinks it's the ego struggling to assert itself, part of me wonders if this practice is actually having a negative impact.

Perhaps it's like the nicotine demon, it sneaks up to you, tries to bully you, tries to cooerce you, finds any weak spot until it can create a crack and find its way back in.

Anyone got any experience/advice in this area?

Thanks!
Ross

odinreln

RossFixxxed wrote: »

Part of me thinks it's the ego struggling to assert itself, part of me wonders if this practice is actually having a negative impact.

yes... i personally encounter this often. with my practice, the benefits don't usually become apparent until a few days later, depending on how regular i have been practicing. i usually have an immediate calm, and good feeling after a good practice, but sometimes the next day, can be chaotic in the mind, more so than usual. if i get a few good practices in a row, maybe, a golden week (getting every day with good practice) then i find that I'm at my calmest in two weeks, rather than the week after.

The week after, sometimes, not always, seems like the egos playground, especially playing around with my insecurities, emotions, and dark thoughts. sometimes i get in a few meditations, which more often than not, seem rushed, and not as focused or relaxed as the previous week, giving way to frustration, and skipping practice.

the next week (3rd week after a great weeks practice) is were i find its all paid off, my thoughts collected, calm, peaceful etc.

i came to the same thoughts and conclusion as yourself, and i reckon its a side effect of the ego. i have a particularly vindictive and dark ego, not with anyone else, just with myself. but the only way out that i have found, is to stay the course, and continue to practice as much as i can. sometimes its great and all seems well, sometimes its not, and all seems lost... but its the journey i guess.

my other friends who meditate have never come up against this. i guess other peoples minds/egos are more subtle when it comes to keeping them in Samsara... mine..... is like a F$@king sledge hammer and i hope the forum excuses my language.


Odin

maitri

RossFixxxed wrote: »

Hi guys,

I've had one recurring problem with practice. The more I do this, stay mindful, concentrate, try to cultivate correct states etc. the worse I rebound on the other side. Good morning session, during the day, evening usually means I have a terrible next day/evening. Everything seems to bounce back 10 times harder.

(...)

Part of me thinks it's the ego struggling to assert itself, part of me wonders if this practice is actually having a negative impact.

Ross

Just a thought:

Maybe there is a hidden kind of self-agression in you practice? Meaning: maybe you practice to change yourself - to be "better"? Then the parts of you (feelings, emotions, longings, unfullfilled needs, loneliness, old anger etc...) that are not accepted - that you want to get rid of because they are painful - might come back stronger and "angrier"...

Maybe they have something to say about your deep inner needs and values?

Maybe it could be interesting to see what happens if you welcome the rebound from the other side? Relax with it? Or if you cannot, then fight it until you give up. Sometimes it then lets go by itself.

Sometimes it helps to try to accept what is - everything that you are - right now, to make a big open inner space around "good" and "bad" feelings.

I am only speaking from my own experience and my own daily struggles - maybe your way is another.

Good luck!

M.

18AD

It's like exercise. If you push yourself too hard you'll hurt yourself. I suggest practicing less. Work on one thing until it's natural and it doesn't take any effort to do anymore, then move onto something else.

Maybe try and find a minimum amount you can do without having a noticable backlash the next day. Then keep working on this until it comes naturally.

I used to get this every week. I'd be grand one week and then down another week. I noticed that the gap between them kept increasing, and now I don't really notice any dramatic change. I have no idea why, as there may be countless variables involved, but persistence paid off.

You'll just have to get to the bottom of it and adapt with it! I'd say if it's having a negative impact on your life then tone it down. If you're just feeling a bit under the weather then I'm afraid you'll just have to figure that out and find a way to deal with it.

maitri's advice is great!

Good luck.
AD

RossFixxxed

Thanks very much guys. I think a lot of the time it comes back to trying to find a decent teacher in Dublin (and not a cult, like some I've found).

There is definitely something I'm doing wrong in this, and it may well be an expectation of what practice will do for me. And that, as we know, is a rather self defeating way to do things!

I'm going to reign back a little, and see the results.

Thanks for the posts guys, I'll keep ya posted, it might be of help to someone else!
R

MeditationMom

Ross - it is hard to "read" long distance what the problem may be in your case - but also consider this - as you practice you force your body to be still. Your troubles may just mean that you need to exert the body, especially if you still eat high energy foods like meat. A body that needs physical exertion and doesn't get it will make the mind go wild. Even before meditation, if you can do some movement to throw some of that energy out, it is often very helpful.

It is also not enough to just sit and hope to be able to calm the mind. Watch all the stuff that the mind has to absorb all day - all the TV, chatter, social stuff...music, images...it's endless and this mental overload needs to get discharged just like all the food we eat needs to get discharged. In other words - this mental "poop" is nothing to worry about. Just consume less mental food if you can.

Another "golden middle way" kind of thing to do is in between letting your own thoughts run wild and meditating, which is reading spiritual/buddhists texts especially on those days - so your thoughts are on a high level and "coached". Hope some of this may help you a little.

RossFixxxed

Thanks Mom! You are totally right to be fair. There is so much stimulus every day to take in. Especially with TV, work, driving, money concerns, jobs etc etc, it's probably a mix of what's been mentioned as well as the contrast between moments of stillness and then reemerging into the chaos. I think reigning back on the 'mental food' a fair bit is a good start!

R

RossFixxxed

Hi, thought I'd updated this since things are quiet.

I've come to discover my issues are in fact more deep rooted lol surprise. But practice every day definitely and undeniably makes a huge difference.

I just must remind myself to be patient, and to be here now and just be.

Hope you guys are well! Say hi sometime. There is few of us here!

Xluna

Disclaimer: I have enourmous respect for Buddhism and if I do join a religion chances are it will be this one.

I'm interested in what the OP said about the negative effects in regards to lessening the ego. The ego is there for a reason. I'm concerned that,for susceptable people, lossing the ego could be a dangerous practise which could lead to mental health problems of the dissociative variety,where a loss of self is a major problem.

18AD

There is no doubt that some people may be at risk when performing certain kinds of meditation. Like everything, if you're not made for it, then it's probably best that you try something different.

I don't think total ego loss is the aim of buddhism. In fact, I think one very common train of thought on this topic is that it is impossible to get rid of your ego. To exist in this world, you must have an ego.

Something comes to mind here. It is clear that the only way for even the buddha to spread their teachings is throught the use of an ego. In this case it appears obvious to me that they must have a huge ego to be so sure as to know they are right. How else could they go around telling people what they should do or how things really are. Just because they may be right, does not diminish the fact that they have big egos. This may be a bit controversial, but it seems accurate to me.

However, I think there a few different ways in which ego loss is achieved in buddhism, or just in general.

I think meditation is probably the safest way to go. It is a very slow process, and requires that you investigate and work through it in stages.
In many ways it is similar to psychotherapy administered on yourself. In fact, I recommend seeing a psychotherapist if you are having any difficulties what-so-ever.

You can achieve it through a repetitive task. I enjoy juggling, but you can use a mantra or drawing, or spinning or drumming or whatever you please.

I think it is also the case that egolessness is quite a common experience. This is a bit different to ego loss, but upon reflection can lead to similar results. when I say egolessness is common, I mean that there are many times throughout the day where you forget you are you. Or even, that you are not thinking about anything, or your mind is wandering, unawares. One goal of buddhism would be to become aware of this constantly.
However, I think you can very easily induce this experience. I find sitting is the best. And just engage with your surroundings, you must become completely immersed in your direct experience.

There is nothing special about ego loss. In fact, it's not something I would strive after if I wasn't curious.

Good luck.
AD

KamikazeKenny81

My understanding of one aspect of egolessness is that when we have a decision to make for example, say you want to buy a car, you may find yourself thinking what sort of car would suit me? For this you have to have a me or "I" to compare your ideas to. But when you have an idea of "I", in every aspect of life, you can potentially be forming a narrow track along which you travel in order to continue to confirm your identity of "I", in doing so actually taking away your own freedom of choice. True freedom for me is seeing every opportunity.

I agree with what was posted above about the commoness of egolessness. The ego is an idea or concept which we have to engage, and when we dont engage it we forget, but for me my habit is to engage.

I personally cant think of any ways in which egolessness could be engaged in such a rapid fashion as to be dangerous, but there is much I dont know. In my experience is it through understanding that I have moved in any amount towards egolessness, and I dont claim to be far along the path but the progress I have made has been extremely rewarding.

Also, a lot of the truely wise people who I have any knowledge of teaching, dont go out to teach, people go to them to learn. A difference perhaps in the need of an ego to teach?

bou

@Xluna
Here's a rather rambling reply and it has a Mahayana bias. I hadn't intended it but it just happened that way. Hopefully, some points will be helpful. Some bits kind of repeat what others have said.

I think that “egolessness” is misunderstood by we who have not realized it experiencially ourselves. What is egolessness? It's said to be beyond any conceptual description and can only be known through direct experience. We make some concepts of what egolessness is and aim to fulfill those concepts which are, well, concepts. They are based on our dualistic way of percieving things that is grounded in karma and habit. They are ego's interpretation of egolessness. If we truely understood egolessness, we'd have already gone beyond and be free of the ego point of view.

'Ego' is a term for describing how we mistakenly perceive the way things are. We relate to things in terms of I and other (dualistically), with fears and expectations, solidifying experience into concepts. Instead of relating to appearances directly in the moment, we relate to our concepts and stories of how we believe things are.

Meditation is about taking a break from the busy mind, with its constant conceptualising of experience, gradually allowing a more open and unlimited experience in the moment to unfold. We begin to loosen a little bit the grip of the concepts and stories which we usually paste all over experiences. Experiences continue to arise as they always do and the concepts and stories we construct continue to come up too. However, in the open space of meditation, we are not quite so attached to these stories and can allow them to come and go without identifying with them so strongly or believing in them so solidly. There is less of the 'I' and 'my experience'. There is experience; there is sharp and clear awareness. Egolessness is in that somehow. In fact it is said (in some schools) that enlightenment is not something we aquire but it has been with us always. We simply didn't recognise it. So by that viewpoint, we are already egoless but just don't quite see it. In finding egolessness, we don't throw away something called ego but simple recognise the way things are and have always been.

So then, does egolessness cause some people to go into bad mental patterns? Perhaps, if it is understood in a wrong way as a kind of nihilism where nothing really matters and what's the point of anything. If approached in a good way, with good guidance from a teacher, and always grounded in the experience of meditation, I think that one gradually opens up to the present egolessness; you become present to the arising multitude of experiences without too much attachment or aversion. You remain, mindful and aware, not distracted into mind's stories but being present with the direct non-conceptual experience. The habitual, mistaken way of perceiving - that is the ego – is reduced and this allows the egolessness to shine through.

I think that detachment from the world is another kind of ego-trip based on aversion to bad experiences. It's one of those pitfalls which the ego runs us into. There are wrong ways of understanding and wrong ways of practising. A teacher can point these out and correct students who are falling into mistaken ways.

In Mahayana Buddhism, there is an emphasis on developing love, compassion, joy and equanimity as a basis to deepening our connection to our enlightened nature. This is very much about connecting out of ourselves and being more open to others. It's about slowly letting go of self-ceneteredness and letting go of our defences. I think that the development of these loving qualities act in parallel to the development of concentration and awareness, helping us to let go of negative, destructive ways of viewing being.

Meditation brings us towards seeing the impermenent, interdependent, fluid, non-dualistic and not-so-solid nature of phenomena which has something to do with egolessness. When we have that kind of view, we are less fixatedly clutching at experience in a conceptually rigid way and we have less fear and false expectations. I think that this has a positive effect on how we are in the world and with others as negative emotions like anger, jealousy and obsessive attachment are loosened.

All you need is love, love.
Love is all you need.

Gary L

Don't believe in bad thoughts. Just be aware of whats happening internally and try to relax with it. If you try to fight yourself you will feel worse for it I think. What really helped me was to intellectually debunk any hateful or selfish impulses I have by listening to existentialist philosophers and getting some core science principles into my head. Left to natural selection the bad ideas end up laughable.