Service charges for unoccupied apartment

SakisP

Just being curious on this, as I haven't seen anything online or offline about it...

Say you just moved out of an apartment complex with the usual management company setup and the obligatory annual service charges. For whatever reason, you decided neither to sell the apartment nor to rent it out.

Should you still have to pay the full amount of the service charge, even if services are not really relevant to you?

Example 1: waste management surely does not apply to someone who does not live there and therefore cannot avail of it.

Example 2: building insurance certainly applies as, without it, you would be in real trouble if something happened to the building and you did not cover your share.

All feedback is welcome and appreciated.

3DataModem

I see no reason why the service charge should be linked to occupancy. It would make administration a nightmare. What if somebody recycles? Should they get a discount too as they don't use bins? The usual system of different charge based on number of bedrooms and parking spaces is pretty fair.

Overheal

Depends on how youre billed I say. Waste management might be monthly or annually.

The_Conductor

Management charges are *never* linked to occupancy of the unit. In the current climate there are thousands of unoccuppied units out there which incur ongoing charges the whole time- unfortunately thats life. When you buy a lease in a managed complex- you also purchase a series of obligations, as set out in the lease, one of which is that you pay those charges as may be decided by the Management Company from time to time.

Waste collection is a periodic event, and in an apartment setting, while a portion of the cost is asociated with the amount of waste generated, its normal for the bulk of the cost to be associated with the collection frequency etc.

To try to break down the billing on a per unit basis would be a logistical nightmare. Where people have insisted on being billed per unit- which does happen- the norm is individual accounts for the individual owners with whoever the local council may be. This removes the waste/refuse collection duties from the management company- and if something goes wrong (as it inevitably does)- it is then the duty of the owner of the unit to liaise with the environmental health officer of the council- it is out of the hands of the management company.

Examples of things that can go wrong- people not wanting to pay their weekly lift charge and putting inappropriate waste in regular and green bins. This may get the complex blacklisted by the council- which means several months waste may build up, necessitating skips etc to clear the mess (this unfortunately has happened at a number of locations in Dublin). Remember- tenants aren't going to care about your apartment in the same way that you do........

Have a word with some of the Environmental Health Officers and listen to some of the stories they'll tell you. You might change your mind pretty quickly.......

athtrasna

Smccarrick has said it all. When you buy you agree to pay and that's the bottom line.

ian_m

smccarrick wrote: »

Management charges are *never* linked to occupancy of the unit.

Unless you're the builder, in which case you don't have to pay management fees on unsold (vacant) apartments, am I right?

Ste.phen

As much of a scam as that is, I think they justify it by saying that they're 'unfinished' until such time as they're sold and snagged?

PCPhoto

theres always the option of voting out the management company - if all the residents/owners think the charges are excessive..... it has happened in a number of places but agreements must be made as to who takes care of what (ie. bins/repairs - easiest to hire someone and give them an apartment)

The_Conductor

PCPhoto wrote: »

theres always the option of voting out the management company - if all the residents/owners think the charges are excessive..... it has happened in a number of places but agreements must be made as to who takes care of what (ie. bins/repairs - easiest to hire someone and give them an apartment)

In many cases this is not possible until such time as the developer has completed the development and transferred the open areas and other assets into the Management Company (its common for them to reside with the developer).

There were a series of very useful seminars 2 years ago organised by Dublin City Council dealing with running a management company. I'll see if I can dig out electronic copies of some of the manuals (they were thick manuals). They make very interesting reading in all honesty.

Paulw

ian_m wrote: »

Unless you're the builder, in which case you don't have to pay management fees on unsold (vacant) apartments, am I right?

That's to do with ownership, not occupancy. A unit isn't owned, until the developer/builder actually sells the unit. It's only at that point that service charges come in to effect.

SakisP

Thanks to all people who replied!

Bottom line: since you can't avoid paying the charge anyway, you might as well rent the place out so that someone else covers your costs via their rent.

Some management companies offer payment plans in these tough times - any relevant experience or second-hand knowledge would be appreciated once more!

Paulw

Our management company gives 3 options - once off payment in full, two payments (half and half) and then a monthly standing order.

Most people go for the half and half option.

Personally, I prefer to pay in full and just get it out of the way.

athtrasna

SakisP wrote: »

Thanks to all people who replied!

Bottom line: since you can't avoid paying the charge anyway, you might as well rent the place out so that someone else covers your costs via their rent.

And if you rent it out, the full management fee is deductible off your tax bill, as opposed to the tiny relief you get for the refuse portion of the fee if you're an owner occupier. :mad:

Victor

SakisP wrote: »

Example 1: waste management surely does not apply to someone who does not live there and therefore cannot avail of it.

They can still avail of it, they just happen not to. Is the management company meant to keep track of your comings and goings?

godtabh

ian_m wrote: »

Unless you're the builder, in which case you don't have to pay management fees on unsold (vacant) apartments, am I right?

Once finished they have to pay service charges on them

Ste.phen

kearnsr wrote: »

Once finished they have to pay service charges on them

Unless whoever drew up the covenants for the management company (usually the builder) specifically excluded the unsold apartments from having to pay fees.

They'd never do that, of course

SakisP

Victor wrote: »

They can still avail of it, they just happen not to. Is the management company meant to keep track of your comings and goings?

Well, I just got an email from the MC today, stating that "regrettably use of bins is for RESIDENTS ONLY" - so I am expected to pay for something I am not allowed to use?!?!

Whatever the legal binding I may have to the MC, surely I will not accept that BS!!! If I pay for waste disposal via my annual charge as it is, I will use their bins whenever I want and that's the end of it.

I think renting the apartment out is not really going to work out after all - better sell it and at least get some liquidity back, there's bound to be an investor out there who will have a better use for it...

athtrasna

It should be in the development rules and/or your lease that bins are for general domestic waste generated in the development only and should exclude large items such as furniture, appliances, floor coverings.

You can't opt in and out of certain parts of service charges, you signed to pay them and abide by your lease and if you don't you're in legal trouble.

Also you won't be able to sell on unless your service charges are up to date as the management agent won't give you the documents you need if you're not paid up.

SakisP

athtrasna wrote: »

It should be in the development rules and/or your lease that bins are for general domestic waste generated in the development only and should exclude large items such as furniture, appliances, floor coverings.

You can't opt in and out of certain parts of service charges, you signed to pay them and abide by your lease and if you don't you're in legal trouble.

Also you won't be able to sell on unless your service charges are up to date as the management agent won't give you the documents you need if you're not paid up.

Oh, I'll pay alright - but nobody will stop me putting my waste there, since I'm paying for it, whether I am a resident or not. Just because it's unusual to have an unoccupied apartment doesn't mean that at least the owner can't use it since he/she's paying for it. Why should I pay for my local council bin tag when I've paid the waste fees elsewhere?

Paulw

Just ask them where it states that waste bins are for residents only and not for unit owners.

If you're paying the management fees, then you are entitled to all services provided within the management fee charge, which would include the bins (provided it's residential waste and not furniture, electrical goods, etc).

Carawaystick

Paulw wrote: »

If you're paying the management fees, then you are entitled to all services provided within the management fee charge, which would include the bins

unless your lease/contract ses otherwise....


regarding ownership of units, I thought all real estate is owned by someone here, an unsold newly built apartment is owned by someone - they'll be called the vendor on the contract of sale... like ste.phen ses, it's just not quite built yet....

Paulw

Carawaystick wrote: »

unless your lease/contract ses otherwise....

Hence the first line of my post - ask them to provide details in writing of where it states that the bins are for residents only.

Carawaystick

Paulw wrote: »

Hence the first line of my post - ask them to provide details in writing of where it states that the bins are for residents only.

oh yeah, definitely, but the op could have signed this away. And check, as you'ld have the same lease as them, in case they're right.