C&F Wind energy

Do-more

I heard the MD of C&F wind energy on the RTE radio News at One announcing their new factory in Athenry which will produce wind turbines for home and small business use.

He was claiming that they had developed new technology which was 40% more efficent than anything else on the market and will run even at low wind speeds meaning they will operate 350 days a year and was quoting an estimated 7 year pay back period.

Their website is not too informative, does anyone have any more info on the products?

A little more info here.

Do-more

News at One Clip Realplayer required.

Warden Dios

Great to see Irish made Turbines!
However claims of: generating electricity at speeds as low as 1.2 metre a second.......producing 40% more power than existing models
seems a bit fishey to say the least!

Eurorunner

There were a couple of headz on here who were well up on this tech. Would be great if they can come back and comment. The nature of things means its probably sales blurb - but would be good to know for sure.

The day these things become economical for domestic use (and its bound to happen in the medium term), I would like to put one in.

Don't suppose theres any progress as regards those domestic roof mounted turbines yet???

Do-more

Some more insight on the subject over in Green issues.

Warden Dios

Eurorunner wrote: »

There were a couple of headz on here who were well up on this tech. Would be great if they can come back and comment. The nature of things means its probably sales blurb - but would be good to know for sure.

The day these things become economical for domestic use (and its bound to happen in the medium term), I would like to put one in.

Don't suppose theres any progress as regards those domestic roof mounted turbines yet???

Roof mounted wind turbines NO! No! No!

http://www.wind-works.org/articles/RoofTopOvertheTopinBritain.html
http://www.wind-works.org/SmallTurbines/Warwick%20Wind%20Trial%20December%202007.pdf

Doctor_L

I would be wary of exaggerated claims about wind speed. The payback on wind speeds depends on:

1 - Your site/location for the wind turbine
2- The cost of the turbine

Switched alternators may give you more sweet spots and better use of the turbine but they cannot produce energy from nothing.

I live in a windy area and measured wind speed for 1 year. My findings are published here:
http://www.irishsilicon.com/2009/04/wind-turbine-payback-calculato-1.html
including revenue generated from different diameters.

Some sales reps have been taken aback when I have challenged their claims with my wind data analysis.

It is very easy for some one to say that the payback is X, but will they guarantee it? Will they refund your money if they are wrong?

That same sales rep can then claim later that your site was not suitable or weather patterns etc means that you will not get your money back in X years, it may take 2X years.

gears

I have to agree with Dr. L regarding the inflated claims about payback on turbines.
Lately I was talking to a mate I haven't seen in ages and he told me was getting a wind turbine a 10Kw unit €35k installed. He was told it would have an 8-10 yr payback and digging a little deeper he told me that the sales guy said it would generate on average 12,000KwHR/yr (12,000 units).
I may have worked this out wrong but taking 3,000 units @ 0.19c is €570 and being very very generous that all the 9,000 remaining units were used domestically @ (say for example) 0.16c that would be €1440. That gives a total of €2010 per yr maximum. So €35,000 / €2010 = 17.4 yr payback, not taking maintenance etc into account.
So the 2x figure may not be all that far out.

Doctor_L

I have heard these type of stories several times. A 10kw turbine sounds like overkill as the normal home can only handle a max of 5.75kw.

Sales reps also tend to ignore that only the first 3000 kw hrs are at 19 cent and the rest at 9 cent.

Some companies were also claiming to have zero maintenance wind turbines.

I have put my thoughts together on this and wrote an article yesterday about the needs for standards and ethics

http://www.irishsilicon.com/2009/05/pay-back-time-for-wind-turbine.html

I will be attending a training course on RETscreen shortly which is aimed at wind and solar PV. In my opinion all quotations should include RETscreen analysis as well as 6 months of measured wind speed.

Liam

rathbaner

Doctor_L wrote: »

I have heard these type of stories several times. A 10kw turbine sounds like overkill as the normal home can only handle a max of 5.75kw.

Sales reps also tend to ignore that only the first 3000 kw hrs are at 19 cent and the rest at 9 cent.

Some companies were also claiming to have zero maintenance wind turbines.

I have put my thoughts together on this and wrote an article yesterday about the needs for standards and ethics

http://www.irishsilicon.com/2009/05/pay-back-time-for-wind-turbine.html

I will be attending a training course on RETscreen shortly which is aimed at wind and solar PV. In my opinion all quotations should include RETscreen analysis as well as 6 months of measured wind speed.

Liam

I think these problems could kill the industry in its infancy. I have been talking to people who want to get into business in this area and the simply don't want to know about the variabilities and uncertainties - never mind deal with them.
What we need is
1) a basic domestic 1kWh turbine that delivers - that is to say actually provides that output - in a 5m/s (typical Irish mean annual) wind. If we had that then you could list the conditions about LOCAL mean windpeeds, height above ground; clear of trees etc etc in an intelligble way.
2) a price point that doesn't require a second mortgage. €10k all in with a payback of 10-18 years is manageable. €35k with a 20-30 year payback will have people buying oil.

Doctor_L

Rathbaner,

I agree with your sentiments about a standard.

To generate 1 kw at 5 m/s would require a turbine with a 6.5 meter radius. At 5 m/s it would generate 1 kw, at 10 kw it would generate 8 kw.

8 Kw turbines are very prohibitive in cost. The bottom line is to produce turbines and sell them in an ethical and honest manner so that the customer is matches with the appropriate turbine. The payback should be a max of 10 years.

Regards

Liam

Retro-Fit

Doctor_L wrote: »

To generate 1 kw at 5 m/s would require a turbine with a 6.5 meter radius. At 5 m/s it would generate 1 kw, at 10 kw it would generate 8 kw.

Typo Dr L.
at 10 m/s it would generate 8kw

bladespin

Doctor_L wrote: »

Rathbaner,

I agree with your sentiments about a standard.

To generate 1 kw at 5 m/s would require a turbine with a 6.5 meter radius. At 5 m/s it would generate 1 kw, at 10 kw it would generate 8 kw.

8 Kw turbines are very prohibitive in cost. The bottom line is to produce turbines and sell them in an ethical and honest manner so that the customer is matches with the appropriate turbine. The payback should be a max of 10 years.

Regards

Liam

There are turbines on the market that can come close to that:

Payback on a good site (9m/s @100m - OSI, terrain 1 -1.5) in about 12-13 years, cost €12k.
Also, it's very low maintenance compared to other older design machines on the market with service intervals of 5 years, which can be done by the owners, not specialists.
As with anything in manufacturing, costs reduce with numbers, the more units sold the cheaper they become.
A grant initiative from the government would help.

necstandards

Anyone know the type of jobs that they are proposing? Who is the HR contact?!

999/112

I was at the VOR today in Galway. C&F wind energy had a stand there and 2 turbines erected for demo. Well made bits of kit and they are really quiet. I took some info from the rep which included prices.
6Kw - €24,300
10Kw - €34,020
15Kw - €43,740

All the above include VAT, delivery, installation & comissioning. Costs may vary depending on site conditions.

Sponge Bob

The jobs are not really to be created in Galway but in Tennessee USA. C&F maintains factories near its customers.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/cf-to-invest-euro78m-in-new-us-plant-2595391.html

The company has facilities in China, the UK, the Czech Republic and the Philippines and employs close to 1,000 people.
Last year, it won a new contract in China that doubled its business there.
C&F employs more than 200 people at a major centre in Athenry, Galway. In 2009 it announced a significant €20m expansion of its wind turbine production that would result in an extra 280 jobs in Athenry.
It is thought the plans for the US manufacturing base will see C&F generate 90pc of its initial output there from automotive parts, but by the end of its third year half the production will involve the manufacture of wind turbines.