Building up Leg stregnth for cycling.

c montgomery

Hi everyone.

I have registered for the gael force west race but have very little experience with road cycling.
From what i hear its an undulating course with a lot of ups and downs.

As a result i feel i may need to streghten by legs as i only ever really do road running.
I have access to a gym but was wondering what exercises i should be doing and with what type of repetitions and weights.

Cheers
Dave

Morgan

c montgomery wrote: »

I have access to a gym but was wondering what exercises i should be doing and with what type of repetitions and weights

I wouldn't bother with weights - if you want to improve your cycling strength - then cycle more. Up hills where possible.

Lumen

About 5400 reps of a very light weight will give you the same sort of workout as an hour cycling.

This is easier to do on a bike at 90 rpm. :pac:

SoWatchaWant

Hey mate,

I'm getting into tough cycling now myself. The best and most convenient option by far is to cycle extensively. When you get better, cycle up and down hills. Leg weights will do the same job but... well, cycling is more suited to the task, plus you don't have to go to the gym!

pburns

Be careful not to do too much, too soon.

My knee is hurting after pushing too hard, too soon using too high a gear. My own stupidity and bull-headedness...:o

O.o

I done a 50km (approx.) cycle on Monday...

Best advice: Cycle more! My brakes cut though when I was going down a steep hill with a bend at the bottom...scary shizz!

Anyways, cycle more, that's my advice.

lukester

Cycle more. Then cycle more hills.

But start small and increase gradually to avoid injury, 10% a week is the general advice for increases in duration.

Start off with small gradient hills and build up the gradient gradually too.

c montgomery

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

The reason i asked about doing weights in the gym is because i live right next to one and im already a member.

I would love to be able to cycle more but i live in an area where cycling can get ya killed very quickly, busy roads and crazy drivers.
I try and do some mountain biking every weekend but in reality only get out about 5 times every 2 months.

Ill take your advice on board and just try and get out on the bike more.

I take it that squats and the like might not be the best so???

Cheers

Caroline_ie

what about using the static bike in the gym, i know it;s not the same, but it might be better than just squats ..

lukester

c montgomery wrote: »

I would love to be able to cycle more but i live in an area where cycling can get ya killed very quickly, busy roads and crazy drivers.

Where, very roughly, do you live? You'll get some route recommendations from here.

Doing weights, squats, etc, will help build leg strength, and can't hurt if you train sensibly. Many training programs include them as a preparation for base training, but they won't replicate training on the bike.

smithslist

Morgan wrote: »

I wouldn't bother with weights - if you want to improve your cycling strength - then cycle more. Up hills where possible.

+1

it is too late to introduce weights into ur training, anyway weight-work wil help up but more on the flat roads rather than hills, best way to practise on hills is to go out and do them.

Since its summer time ur are luck. try to get into racing as it wil improve you alot within the short time you have for gaelforce.

danburke

A squat set that I have found to work for me is this:

1) Determine your maximum single rep squat.

2) Start by squatting 30% of this max to failure, start at 1minute and build up by 20 seconds a session until you hit 8 mins

3) walk/stumble over to the leg curl machine and do 3 sets of 10 reps at what ever weight you can manage

4) switch to the hamstring curl machine and do 3 sets of 10 reps

5) Pick up two heavy dumbells (I use 30Kg in each hand) and do 3 sets of 10 reps of calf extensions

The idea is to use a really light weight on the squats so that you can practise and get your form right.. then just blow the crap out of your legs on the other machines

Caroline_ie

I think what Lumen said. If you want leg strengh for cycling, then cycle, you need to build up some kind of cadence and some familiarity with the pedaling bit which squats will not do. You are a runner and the fact that you are going to do the Gael Force thing intels you are quite fit already anyway. Leg strengh will not alone get you up a hill ... put your bike on the treadmill or something if you can't cycle outside.

biker_joe

Very very simple, find a drag that takes about 10mins to ride thats about 4-5% gradient, not a hard climb.. ( can be done on the flat either )
find the biggest gear you can grind i.e. at very low cadence , big ring 53T and 11-14 gear on your rear sprocket .... if you are only starting I would advise maybe a lower gear on the rear... do your 10mins .... take a break of 20mins or so, and repeat ...


you should feel your quads and your hamstrings having to do alot of work during this ... this will help build leg strenght and muscular endurance .....
as you get better at it ... try a bigger gear or a harder hill ... and of course longer duration ....

Biker Joe ....

Lumen

biker_joe wrote: »

Very very simple, find a drag that takes about 10mins to ride thats about 4-5% gradient, not a hard climb.. ( can be done on the flat either )
find the biggest gear you can grind i.e. at very low cadence , big ring 53T and 11-14 gear on your rear sprocket .... if you are only starting I would advise maybe a lower gear on the rear... do your 10mins .... take a break of 20mins or so, and repeat ...

Not sure that's appropriate advice for an untrained cyclist - he'll tear himself to shreds!

lukester

biker_joe wrote: »

find the biggest gear you can grind i.e. at very low cadence ,

Don't think that's a great idea for someone starting out cycling. Much more likely to pick up an injury. Most of the training advice I've seen recommends starting off on 2-4% gradient and spinning, and gradually building from there.

I also speak from experience, having picked up an injury by tackling too many hills in a higher gear, trying to build strength.

cantalach

Lumen wrote: »

Not sure that's appropriate advice for an untrained cyclist - he'll tear himself to shreds!

I agree. Very bad advice. The OP says he has very little experience. Riding up a 4-5% hill on a 53x11 will destroy his knees.

Lumen

To put things in perspective regarding "leg strength", on my last slow training spin over Sally Gap my average torque was 10Nm.

This is the same as 5.8kg resting on the end of one 175mm crank.

Cycling forces are tiny, and for the most part you don't need "strength" in a conventional sense at all.

cantalach

Lumen wrote: »

To put things in perspective regarding "leg strength", on my last slow training spin over Sally Gap my average torque was 10Nm.

This is the same as 5.8kg resting on the end of one 175mm crank.

Cycling forces are tiny, and for the most part you don't need "strength" in a conventional sense at all.

That's presumably the average torque for the full 360° of rotation. When you consider that each leg only contributes meaningfully in a fairly small arc, the momentary peak torque is a fair bit higher than 10Nm. That said, I agree that the forces are low...just not quite that low.

biker_joe

cantalach wrote: »

I agree. Very bad advice. The OP says he has very little experience. Riding up a 4-5% hill on a 53x11 will destroy his knees.

More like destroy his hamstrings ...... Lads is quiet difficult to give very accurate here, when you don't know someone's ability !! I also said it can be done on the flat either ..... and in lower gears ( i said less than 14T ) if they don't have the experience ! can you not read !
I am not trying to give bad advice here ...... jayus ! :eek: and if you think you don't need leg strength to cycle then you must be competely mad !!!

Building leg strength and muscular endurance is absolutely a key Part to becoming a better cyclist ! ( and yes there are other parts too ! )

would you rather I tell them to go get a coach !!!! :eek:

ROK ON

I agree with much of what has been stated. I have a hell of a lot of leg strength (based on ability to leg press/squat etc), I have always had strong legs. Its very little use cycling I find.

Get out on your bike and spend your time doing all sorts of cycling. Long and slow for endurance, spinning up hills, fast paced work out etc.

The big issue in going up hills (speakig as a struggler) is not IMO leg strength, but for how long can you sustain a certain heart rate/power out put without completely knackering yourself. I would imagine that this has more to do with fitness and weight rather than leg strength.

If you are starting cycling, then it is only natural that your legs will be stiff and tired. But with more cycling this will ease and eventually disappear.

Lumen

cantalach wrote: »

That's presumably the average torque for the full 360° of rotation. When you consider that each leg only contributes meaningfully in a fairly small arc, the momentary peak torque is a fair bit higher than 10Nm. That said, I agree that the forces are low...just not quite that low.

Yeah, sorry that's average torque per leg I think. I feel slightly better now.

biker_joe

Lumen wrote: »

Yeah, sorry that's average torque per leg I think. I feel slightly better now.

I'm afraid the torque figures are completely useless to all cyclists never mind someone who is starting off !!
Never seen a training plan that involves achieving max torque per leg !! LOL !!:D

Lumen

biker_joe wrote: »

Building leg strength and muscular endurance is absolutely a key Part to becoming a better cyclist ! ( and yes there are other parts too ! )

It depends on what you mean by leg strength, and what you're trying to achieve.

From cptips:

A study wrote:

The following article also suggests that any benefits are minimal, at least for endurance performance. BISHOP, D., D. G. JENKINS, L. T. MACKINNON, M. MCENIERY, and M. F. CAREY. The effects of strength training on endurance performance and muscle characteristics. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 6, pp. 886-891, 1999

Purpose: The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of resistance training on endurance performance and selected muscle characteristics of female cyclists.

Methods: Twenty-one endurance-trained, female cyclists, aged 18-42 yr, were randomly assigned to either a resistance training (RT; N = 14) or a control group (CON; N = 7). Resistance training (2×·wk-1) consisted of five sets to failure (2-8 RM) of parallel squats for 12 wk. Before and immediately after the resistance-training period, all subjects completed an incremental cycle test to allow determination of both their lactate threshold (LT) and peak oxygen consumption V(dot)O2). In addition, endurance performance was assessed by average power output during a 1-h cycle test (OHT), and leg strength was measured by recording the subject's one repetition maximum (1 RM) concentric squat. Before and after the 12-wk training program, resting muscle was sampled by needle biopsy from m. vastus lateralis and analyzed for fiber type diameter, fiber type percentage, and the activities of 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase and phosphofructokinase.

Results: After the resistance training program, there was a significant increase in 1 RM concentric squat strength for RT (35.9%) but not for CON (3.7%) (P < 0.05). However, there were NO significant changes in OHT performance, LT, V(dot)O2, muscle fiber characteristics, or enzyme activities in either group (P > 0.05).

Conclusion: The present data suggest that increased leg strength does not improve cycle ENDURANCE performance in endurance-trained, female cyclists.

Obviously there's more to racing than 1hr endurance performance, but still.

edit: my point is, when someone comes along and says "I'm a runner not a cyclist, and I want stronger legs", they're not really asking about fine-tuning their sprint performance, they're looking to go faster and further on the bike, which is about endurance, not leg strength.

cantalach

biker_joe wrote: »

More like destroy his hamstrings ...... Lads is quiet difficult to give very accurate here, when you don't know someone's ability !! I also said it can be done on the flat either ..... and in lower gears ( i said less than 14T ) if they don't have the experience ! can you not read !
I am not trying to give bad advice here ...... jayus ! :eek: and if you think you don't need leg strength to cycle then you must be competely mad !!!

Building leg strength and muscular endurance is absolutely a key Part to becoming a better cyclist ! ( and yes there are other parts too ! )

would you rather I tell them to go get a coach !!!! :eek:

I didn't say strength was unimportant. My point is that telling a newbie to push "the biggest gear you can grind" at "very low cadence" up a hill is bad advice.

biker_joe

cantalach wrote: »

I didn't say strength was unimportant. My point is that telling a newbie to push "the biggest gear you can grind" at "very low cadence" up a hill is bad advice.

ok so you tell him what he should ..... start by taking off the stablisers !! :mad:
Cos I think I missed the good advice you gave, other than you slating mine !

This exercise is one that alot of racing cyclists use during a "Build" period... a newbie can dumb it down without getting injured, along as they have done a certain amount of training on a bike before........

Maybe I am not on here long enough to know what level most of the contributors are at .....If I knew that giving better advice would be easier !
but better than giving none ... Most should know what they are able for !

Biker Joe

niceonetom

c montgomery wrote: »

I have registered for the gael force west race but have very little experience with road cycling.

biker_joe wrote: »

This exercise is one that alot of racing cyclists use during a "Build" period...

Joe - I'm sure your intentions are good but telling a self-proclaimed untrained cyclist to push the biggest gear he can up hills is terrible advice. Bad advice is much worse than no advice at all. There's no need to get all hurt and defensive about it when people point that out to you. It takes a long time to build up the strength in the connective tissues of the knees to be able to sustain serious grinding. Look through old posts here about knee pain - a huge number of them come from people who have (deliberately or through noob ignorance) been pushing too-big gears. What works for trained racers is a recipe for instant tendinitis for untrained riders.

OP - If you're a decent runner you probably already have the cardiovascular fitness, what you need is not really strength but muscular endurance. Build it by cycling. My advice would be to find a few decent routes with a bit of climbing on them and to get out on your bike. The gym may be next door but there's nowhere on this island that is more than 30 minutes cycling away from countryside. The evenings are long. Vary your cycling to get more out of it. If you want some nice routes this is a good place to ask. You may even find some training partners who can give some some pointers in person.

biker_joe

has anyone or all here done a Poll or Survey to see what the type of riders we have here ?
ie

Commuter
Leisure Rider
Road Racer ( learner, novice, expert, Elite )
MTB ( learner, novice, expert, Elite )

etc ....

I promise I'll try not get hurt again , but I won't be too pushed about giving out advise again, bad ( in your opinion ) or otherwise.....


Biker Joe.

blorg

Do more cycling. Try to spin up hills. As Tom says you will have the aerobic system but the muscles used are very different- I found this out going the other way from cycling to running, my legs would be wrecked after a run despite me having plenty of aerobic capacity. Just build it up gradually and you will be flying in no time, it will come a lot quicker to you I reckon with the aerobic system you already have from the running. As others have said it is not about leg strength.

biker_joe

Definately not about Leg Strength, I wonder how to push that 53*11 I must be using my hands !! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Biker Joe.

TinyExplosions

biker_joe wrote: »

Definately not about Leg Strength, I wonder how to push that 53*11 I must be using my hands !! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Biker Joe.

No, you just happen to have built up the leg strength... as has been said before, this advice is for the OP, who's a total beginner -you are obviously not one.

blorg

@biker_joe- if you read the OP's post about where he is coming from do you really think his priority should be "leg strength" over getting his legs used to spinning for moderate distances (44km) and climbing a few hills. It's basically a time trial format, he is not going to need skill in sprinting etc. I would imagine he should be doing all this aerobically.

EDIT: Your advice is not bad advice, it is just bad for the OP. I built up my own leg stregth and ability to power up hills standing from riding a fixed gear up mountains which is basically similar to what you advise. But I was not a beginner cyclist doing that.

c montgomery

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Theres alot of it there and i think if i can do a combination of it all i should be alright.

Some details about me so that ye know where im coming from.
My fitness is fine and i can easily run 12k in an hour. What i find however is that when i cycle i tent to be pretty soar the next day, particulary just above the knee cap. The next day when i wake up its the first sensation that hits me and its at least 2 days before i can face running or cycling again.
So far my cycles only last about an hour along an easy enought road(small hill). The reason i want to streghten my legs is to combat this pain in my knees.

Im starting spinning classes on saturday so hopefully this will also help.

Many thanks for all the advice and keep it coming, i could do with it:)

Paul

Nietzschean

c montgomery wrote: »

The reason i want to streghten my legs is to combat this pain in my knees.

I found sit down squats very good (using something like )

very good at improving the muscles/stuff around knees to get rid of that pain

blorg

I have knee pain also, in my case just below my left kneecap. Occurs after/during very long cycles. Physio noticed that my right leg is quite dominant and much developed; gave me some exercises to strengthen the left leg... If I can find them I will pass them on

petethedrummer

All I know is Mark Cavendish doesn't do weights and I doubt any of the skinny climbers do. So I wouldn't bother.

It is not immediately obvious why Cavendish is able to dominate road sprints so emphatically. Physically, he is powerful but not superhuman; he is strong, yet he never lifts weights or does anything in fact but ride his bike.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/23/mark-cavendish-tour-de-france.

eggie

Doing weights in the gym is fine to increase muscle strength. It will leave you less prone to injury while out on the bike (muscle injuries, if you feel tendons tightening or getting sore then rest them).

Squats work primarily on the quads which is a stubborn muscle group and takes heavier lifting to force them to grow, not what you really want as cycling works more on endurance/stamina rather than power/strength.

For endurance in the gym I'd stick to treadmill, bike, cross trainer, stepper, rower. If doing weights then fixate on reps more so than weight, and stretch while doing weights. Concentrate on the upper body aswell as the legs, one wont grow without other, legs is only half your body.

Rest and Diet are every bit as important as training so listen to whatyour body tells you and dont over do it.

cantalach

petethedrummer wrote: »

All I know is Mark Cavendish doesn't do weights and I doubt any of the skinny climbers do. So I wouldn't bother.

Cavendish might not do weights but there's every chance he does what Stuart O'Grady calls "strengthies" - low cadence, big ring hill climbs as described by biker_joe. But as has been noted already, what is appropriate for a pro doing 20-25 hours per week, 46 weeks per year is not necessarily appropriate for a new cyclist, no matter how good their aerobic base.

c montgomery

Thanks again everyone for the good advice and info.

Went to the gym tonight and there was a spinning class about to start so i hopped in.
Could not believe how tough it was. I guess i have a lot of work to do for gael force west but i have to say i feel much better after it.
Just above my knee caps is pretty sore again but i feel with a couple of protein shakes and a good nite sleep this might be gone by tomorrow.

I think why i found it so difficult is because when im cycling i decided the route and adjust it depending on my energy levels, spinning is dictated by the instructor and when i slowed down she pulled me on it.

Gonna do the spinning every thur from now on and do some of those leg presses once a week.

Again cheers for all the advice. Ill keep ye up to date on my performance so people who are at my level can see how i improve.

Paul

Git101

c montgomery wrote: »

Hi everyone.

I have registered for the gael force west race but have very little experience with road cycling.
From what i hear its an undulating course with a lot of ups and downs.

As a result i feel i may need to streghten by legs as i only ever really do road running.
I have access to a gym but was wondering what exercises i should be doing and with what type of repetitions and weights.

Cheers
Dave

Hi c montgomery

I think it would be really interesting if you posted this question on the fitness forum.

Getting out on the bike is great if circumstances allow but sometimes if you can only hop into the gym for a quick session why not make it the most productive session for the bike

I would guess that the guys on the fitness forum may have a few interesting suggestions

petethedrummer

cantalach wrote: »

Cavendish might not do weights but there's every chance he does what Stuart O'Grady calls "strengthies" - low cadence, big ring hill climbs as described by biker_joe. But as has been noted already, what is appropriate for a pro doing 20-25 hours per week, 46 weeks per year is not necessarily appropriate for a new cyclist, no matter how good their aerobic base.

Quite, but a bit of cycling(stationary/indoor/outdoor) would do the OP a bit better than weight training at this stage.