Equivalent of "Progressive British Muslims"?

oceanclub

In the Uk, there's a progressive Muslim group called (originally enough!) "Progressive British Muslims":

http://www.pbm.org.uk/

Is there an Irish equivalent? The only Irish Muslim political group I'm aware of would be MPAC (http://www.mpac.ie), who would definitely be from the fundamentalist side (for example, they're the only group I know of of any type who supports Dermot Ahern's blasphemous libel bill),

Regards,

P.

wes

Well, if I remember right MPAC Ireland is basically a spin off of the UK branch, which is a well organized small group of people from what I have seen, the UK branch got on Sky News at some point.

I think there were some threads on here about the Irish version, and that its a tiny group, basically one guys and his family or something? I vageuelly remember a thread that mentioned this a while back.

As for your questions, I have no idea if there is a equivalent of the progressive British Muslims here in Ireland.

**EDIT**
Oh, I remember that MPAC Ireland, is run by Liam Egan if I remember right. The guy is hardly representative of the community here and seems to be very good at gaining publicity.

oceanclub

wes wrote: »

I think there were some threads on here about the Irish version, and that its a tiny group, basically one guys and his family or something? I vageuelly remember a thread that mentioned this a while back.

Oh absolutely; it's Liam Egan (who goes by the moniker Mujahid), his wife, and another bloke, as far as I know. Unfortunately, what they lack in numbers, they more than make up for in zeal, and over on politics.ie, blasphemy.ie and other forums, they are pretty much the only open Muslim voice.

At the moment, they are the only people defending Ahern's blasphemous libel law, and its members there insinuate that they speak for all Muslims, which only feeds the "ban Muslim immigration" right-wing crowd.

As for your questions, I have no idea if there is a equivalent of the progressive British Muslims here in Ireland.

Pity, as I think there needs to be an organized voice to counter-balance Liam Egan's. PBM was founded originally to counter MPAC in Britain.

Regards,

P.

wes

oceanclub wrote: »

Oh absolutely; it's Liam Egan (who goes by the moniker Mujahid), his wife, and another bloke, as far as I know. Unfortunately, what they lack in numbers, they more than make up for in zeal, and over on politics.ie, blasphemy.ie and other forums, they are pretty much the only open Muslim voice.

I have to say I am surprised they are defending the law. Even from a self-interest pov (as I am pretty sure they could care less about free speech), blasphemy laws tend to screw over minorities. Technically, Islam is basically one giant blasphemy to Christianity and such a law could easily be used against the Muslim community here. So there defence seems pretty damned stupid to me.

I do agree, they are incredibly damaging to the community here and the problem with the Muslim community in Ireland, is that well quite frankly it doesn't exist in any meaningful way. There is Arab, Pakistani, Malay etc community, who only ever run into one another in the Mosque. Hell, I never talked to a Muslims who wasn't of South Asian ethnicity outside of a Mosque, until I went to college.

oceanclub wrote: »

At the moment, they are the only people defending Ahern's blasphemous libel law, and its members there insinuate that they speak for all Muslims, which only feeds the "ban Muslim immigration" right-wing crowd.

Well, tbh, I think it seems to be 2 groups of very silly people involved, firstly MPAC Ireland, and the people who take them seriously.

oceanclub wrote: »

Pity, as I think there needs to be an organized voice to counter-balance Liam Egan's. PBM was founded originally to counter MPAC in Britain.

Regards,

P.

Yeah, I can see your point, but the problem is that there is such a small community here and organizing anything can be a pain.

oceanclub

wes wrote: »

I have to say I am surprised they are defending the law. Even from a self-interest pov (as I am pretty sure they could care less about free speech), blasphemy laws tend to screw over minorities.

From what I understand, MPAC seem to believe it's more akin to an anti-incitement to hatred law than an anti-blasphemy law. But it's not; the wording of the bill makes it clear it pertains only to sacred matters. Generalised non-sacred insults against any religious groups are not covered. But, saying that you thought the whole Scientology "Xenu" thing was a bunch of hogwash would be.

The whole thing is simply Dermot Ahern angling for the FF leadership, anyway.

Technically, Islam is basically one giant blasphemy to Christianity and such a law could easily be used against the Muslim community here. So there defence seems pretty damned stupid to me.

Well, exactly. Hitchens wrote - presciently enough, in a essay called Irelandin 1998:

"The secular state is the guarantee of religious pluralism. This apparent paradox, again, is the simplest and most elegant of political truths."

There is Arab, Pakistani, Malay etc community, who only ever run into one another in the Mosque. Hell, I never talked to a Muslims who wasn't of South Asian ethnicity outside of a Mosque, until I went to college.

I know mainly Malay muslims, and certainly the stereotype projected by Liam doesn't match them at all. (Incidentally, it turns out he was a Christian lay preacher, which shows that people tend to go from one extreme to the other.) Of course, Liam's retort was that they can't be "proper" Muslims if they hang out with me....

Well, tbh, I think it seems to be 2 groups of very silly people involved, firstly MPAC Ireland, and the people who take them seriously.

I think - unfortunately - perception is reality. I know that the reality Liam is a very silly man, and a bit sad (honestly, I do feel sorry for him) and MPAC is pretty much a front for him and a few cronies.

However, because of his tireless self-promotion skills, he managed to get onto Al Jazeera to claim that Ireland is a bigoted state and even RTE radio shows have now started to feature him as the voice of Islam. So, unfortunately, until progressive Muslims promote their own voice as an alternative, the media - naturally lazy for easy copy - will pick this self-promoter.

P.

wes

oceanclub wrote: »

From what I understand, MPAC seem to believe it's more akin to an anti-incitement to hatred law than an anti-blasphemy law. But it's not; the wording of the bill makes it clear it pertains only to sacred matters. Generalised non-sacred insults against any religious groups are not covered. But, saying that you thought the whole Scientology "Xenu" thing was a bunch of hogwash would be.

The whole thing is simply Dermot Ahern angling for the FF leadership, anyway.

Ah, well there interpretation is odd to say the least, as the purpose seems very clear.

oceanclub wrote: »

Well, exactly. Hitchens wrote - presciently enough, in a essay called Irelandin 1998:

"The secular state is the guarantee of religious pluralism. This apparent paradox, again, is the simplest and most elegant of political truths."

Yeah, while I don't always agree with him, he is very much correct there.

oceanclub wrote: »

I know mainly Malay muslims, and certainly the stereotype projected by Liam doesn't match them at all. (Incidentally, it turns out he was a Christian lay preacher, which shows that people tend to go from one extreme to the other.) Of course, Liam's retort was that they can't be "proper" Muslims if they hang out with me....

Yeah, true enough he would say that, but I think he is pretty out there.

oceanclub wrote: »

I think - unfortunately - perception is reality. I know that the reality Liam is a very silly man, and a bit sad (honestly, I do feel sorry for him) and MPAC is pretty much a front for him and a few cronies.

However, because of his tireless self-promotion skills, he managed to get onto Al Jazeera to claim that Ireland is a bigoted state and even RTE radio shows have now started to feature him as the voice of Islam. So, unfortunately, until progressive Muslims promote their own voice as an alternative, the media - naturally lazy for easy copy - will pick this self-promoter.

P.

Yeah, I guess it is too much to expect media people to do there jobs properly. I have seen a few shamless self promoters get a lot of media attention here and in the UK, there is also Anjem Choudry who does the same in the UK.

The problem here, is that any progressive group of Muslims would be very difficult to put together here in Ireland due to a very much splintered community. There is a lof crap that goes on between the various ethnic groups. Its definetly a good idea to counter MPAC, but I honestly don't see anyone actually being able to put any kind of group together to do so.

I guess MPAC have an advantage in that they don't really care about being representative and thus only need a small group and seems to be very good at promoting thereselves. Its funny that MPAC are so vociferous in defence of Muslims in this country and they are probably doing far more damage than anything else and are creating problems that didn't really exist before.

Abu Shakurah

wes wrote: »

Ah, well there interpretation is odd to say the least, as the purpose seems very clear.
Yeah, while I don't always agree with him, he is very much correct there.
Yeah, true enough he would say that, but I think he is pretty out there.
Yeah, I guess it is too much to expect media people to do there jobs properly. I have seen a few shamless self promoters get a lot of media attention here and in the UK, there is also Anjem Choudry who does the same in the UK.

The problem here, is that any progressive group of Muslims would be very difficult to put together here in Ireland due to a very much splintered community. There is a lof crap that goes on between the various ethnic groups. Its definetly a good idea to counter MPAC, but I honestly don't see anyone actually being able to put any kind of group together to do so.

I guess MPAC have an advantage in that they don't really care about being representative and thus only need a small group and seems to be very good at promoting thereselves. Its funny that MPAC are so vociferous in defence of Muslims in this country and they are probably doing far more damage than anything else and are creating problems that didn't really exist before.

And what would your advice be wes? Shave off the beard, dress like the unbelievers and just fit in - on you go, but remember you will be raised with those who you love (and love is indicated by companionship).

wes

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

And what would your advice be wes? Shave off the beard, dress like the unbelievers and just fit in - on you go, but remember you will be raised with those who you love (and love is indicated by companionship).

What the hell are you talking about?

Dressing a certain way mean less than nothing and perhaps you should visit some more of the Muslim world, not everyone grows a beard you know. Still, no where in my post do I suggest that people dress anyway, other than how they wish too.

Engaging with the wider community is a good thing. Everyone, gets to know each other a whole lot better and it ensures that everyone knows where each other are coming from. I don't see much use in a bizarre voluntary apartheid. There are plenty of Muslim traditions that advocate such things and they are the better for it.

How about actually addressing a single thing I have said, as opposed to hurling childish nonsense about? Of course, you resorting to such a tactic is telling imho.

So a quick question to you then. What right does a really really small group of Muslims have to claim the represented a diverse quasi-community (i still contend that we don't have a Muslim community in this country, due to people being split along ethnic lines more or less)? I would say they have no such right and there efforts are causing more damage and little or no good.

Abu Shakurah

wes: What the hell are you talking about?

Dressing a certain way mean less than nothing and perhaps you should visit some more of the Muslim world, not everyone grows a beard you know. Still, no where in my post do I suggest that people dress anyway, other than how they wish too.

Ah, the moderate please everyone approach. I'm well aware that not every male Muslim chooses to obey Allah and His messenger and grow a beard, it's called disobedience, nothing else and I'd suggest you go and learn your deen before you choose to offer any advice. Practicing Muslims DO NOT dress how they wish, they dress to please Allah and in obedience to Him.

Engaging with the wider community is a good thing. Everyone, gets to know each other a whole lot better and it ensures that everyone knows where each other are coming from. I don't see much use in a bizarre voluntary apartheid. There are plenty of Muslim traditions that advocate such things and they are the better for it.

Muslims engage, but we also obey Allah and choose our friends wisely. There is no friendship with the unbelievers and I defy you to bring me ONE ayah or ahadith to the contrary.

How about actually addressing a single thing I have said, as opposed to hurling childish nonsense about? Of course, you resorting to such a tactic is telling imho.

I'm merely responding to the level of rhetoric you have evinced. I'm a firm believer in meeting people half way

So a quick question to you then. What right does a really really small group of Muslims have to claim the represented a diverse quasi-community (i still contend that we don't have a Muslim community in this country, due to people being split along ethnic lines more or less)? I would say they have no such right and there efforts are causing more damage and little or no good.

The same was said of Malcolm X and those who stood against racial prejudice in the US. 'House Negroes' decried Malcolm's temerity. We have our own 'house Muslims' here, uncle Tom's one and all.

BuffyBot

Now, Abu Shakurah, would you like to declare a little conflict of interest here...

wes

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

Ah, the moderate please everyone approach. I'm well aware that not every male Muslim chooses to obey Allah and His messenger and grow a beard, it's called disobedience, nothing else and I'd suggest you go and learn your deen before you choose to offer any advice. Practicing Muslims DO NOT dress how they wish, they dress to please Allah and in obedience to Him.

I never made any claims of being a "moderate" anything. Also, I don't think it my business to tell others how to dress personally. You know the whole no compulsion in Religion thing.

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

Muslims engage, but we also obey Allah and choose our friends wisely. There is no friendship with the unbelievers and I defy you to bring me ONE ayah or ahadith to the contrary.

Why do I need to do this? I think the many Muslim traditions that practice otherwise are more than convincing enough.

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

I'm merely responding to the level of rhetoric you have evinced. I'm a firm believer in meeting people half way

Fair enough, but you still didn't try and actually engage in anything I said.

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

The same was said of Malcolm X and those who stood against racial prejudice in the US. 'House Negroes' decried Malcolm's temerity. We have our own 'house Muslims' here, uncle Tom's one and all.

Well, thats interesting, seems to be a go to insult for certain people. I have certainly seen that quote from Malcolm X being mis-used and over used by certain people here and this is certainly the situation here. Especially seeing as you don't seem to know much about him or me for that matter.

What I find interesting is that you don't seem to know much about Malcolm X, who is some who I think was a good, if flawed man. I would recommend you watch the excellent film about him and his autobiography (not read it yet, but I hear its pretty good).

You quite frankly are no Malcolm X and you trying to compare yourself to him in anyway is ridiculous, to try an defend a tiny group who think themselves some kind of microscopic vanguard for our community. Malcolm X certainly represented a significant part of his community.

oceanclub

I wonder is "Abu Shakurah" the same person as "Alterego" on politics.ie. He's also an MPAC member who uses the "moderate muslims are house Negros" meme:

http://www.politics.ie/1522135-post11.html

P.

Abu Shakurah

wes:I never made any claims of being a "moderate" anything. Also, I don't think it my business to tell others how to dress personally. You know the whole no compulsion in Religion thing.

Please do not highlight your ignorance any more than is necessary. Are you suggesting that Umar was not following the ayah when he urged the young man who visited him on his death bed to raise his garment above his ankle? Or is it most likely that you are simply speaking from your nafs?

Why do I need to do this? I think the many Muslim traditions that practice otherwise are more than convincing enough.

I'm happy that you have openly stated that your actions have little or nothing to do with the Quran and Sunnah.

You quite frankly are no Malcolm X and you trying to compare yourself to him in anyway is ridiculous, to try an defend a tiny group who think themselves some kind of microscopic vanguard for our community. Malcolm X certainly represented a significant part of his community.

Why don't you worry about representing yourself Wes, you've done an extremely poor job thus far. MPAC, I'm sure will do what they consider best and in the interests of Muslims in Ireland. I'm sure some 'Muslims' will question their motives, the same ones who will do nothing to censure the unbelievers but rally together to prevent any good Muslims want to do.

Abu Shakurah

oceanclub wrote: »

I wonder is "Abu Shakurah" the same person as "Alterego" on politics.ie. He's also an MPAC member who uses the "moderate muslims are house Negros" meme:

http://www.politics.ie/1522135-post11.html

P.

No, I am not Alterego and the house negro idea is not unique to MPAC. Having said that I do follow their website and I do appreciate their work.

wes

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

Please do not highlight your ignorance any more than is necessary. Are you suggesting that Umar was not following the ayah when he urged the young man who visited him on his death bed to raise his garment above his ankle? Or is it most likely that you are simply speaking from your nafs?

I think you will find that many Muslims differ on the Hadith they follow. Of course, you can take things literally or look at the taught behind them. Such as dressing modestly as opposed in dressing in a very specific way.

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

I'm happy that you have openly stated that your actions have little or nothing to do with the Quran and Sunnah.

I follow the tradition I was raised in. I have no reason to doubt it, as the people who taught me were plenty knowledgeable.

You see there are many Muslim traditions and I follow a different one to yours and personally I think being a part of the community is not only the right thing to do, but one that benefits everyone involved.

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

Why don't you worry about representing yourself Wes, you've done an extremely poor job thus far. MPAC, I'm sure will do what they consider best and in the interests of Muslims in Ireland. I'm sure some 'Muslims' will question their motives, the same ones who will do nothing to censure the unbelievers but rally together to prevent any good Muslims want to do.

Good intentions are worthless, when they cause more harm than good. MPAC are a group of busy bodies who have no business claiming to represent Muslims. They are a tiny group who are causing Muslims a lot more harm. So I most certainly think I am right to say this, as this groups actions will effect me and my family. So long as this is so, I think I have every right to say what I have said about this group.

Now, I may be making a fool of myself, but that fine, as I represent myself and have right to make myself look a fool. Now, if I were to make my whole community look stupid, like MPAC makes Muslims look, then that would be a problem.

The way forward for our communities, is to be a part of the wider community. We can do this and still be good Muslims. I think the nonsensical voluntary apartheid is bad idea and is ultimately damaging to Muslims and hence why I am against the nonsense MPAC and there ilk spew.

Nodin

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

Why don't you worry about representing yourself Wes, you've done an extremely poor job thus far. MPAC, I'm sure will do what they consider best and in the interests of Muslims in Ireland.

Really? An unelected irish recent convert - suffering from the over-zealousness that comes with that - will be the ideal representation for a group of persons from nearly every corner of the globe.......? Fascinating.

Yusuf Mirza

The most progresive Muslim Group in "the world" is the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community". We are so progressive in fact that other Muslims call us "Kafir" and say we should be killed lolzzz.

Pitty really....

Sonic_exyouth

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

The most progresive Muslim Group in "the world" is the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community". We are so progressive in fact that other Muslims call us "Kafir" and say we should be killed lolzzz.

Pitty really....

The Ahmadiyya reckon jesus is buiried in Kashmir, they also support Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whose only other major claim to fame is that his "divine guidance" from god , amazingly, mirror-imaged the needs of the colonizing british army, who funded his missionary.

/me is rather cynical!

InFront

OP I'm not sure what you mean by progressive. 'Progressive' to a Muslim should refer to his own progression as a student of Islam his struggle to be a good Muslim insh'Allah.

It does not, or ought not, refer to his 'progression' in softening his faith to suit his environment as a chameleon would change its colours to suit its surroundings.

I don't consider myself morally nor intellectually qualified to interpret the Qur’an and Sunnah and don't therefore set out new or pioneering works on it or decide that certain rules don't apply to me! I live as a Muslim in day to day life and hopefully in a 'progressive' way for my iman.

I will say again that one thing which grates off me is the term 'moderate' which always implies some sort of half-baked, careless attempt at faith.

As for the MPAC, I don't pay much attention to it nor am I very familiar with them at a close level. I have a big problem with badmouthing other Muslims and criticising their efforts as Muslims because I don't think it's correct to do so especially over the medium of the internet when some of us are not personally known to one another and could easily pick up the wrong end of the stick - as happens so often when communicating in text:-)

meraypass

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

The Ahmadiyya reckon jesus is buiried in Kashmir, they also support Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whose only other major claim to fame is that his "divine guidance" from god , amazingly, mirror-imaged the needs of the colonizing british army, who funded his missionary.

/me is rather cynical!

Can you prove this funding?

meraypass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonic_exyouth

The Ahmadiyya reckon jesus is buiried in Kashmir, they also support Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whose only other major claim to fame is that his "divine guidance" from god , amazingly, mirror-imaged the needs of the colonizing british army, who funded his missionary.


/me is rather cynical!

Can you prove this funding?

Didn't think so.

meraypass

In response to MPACUK's hue and cry on allegedly human rights violations of Muslims I posted below on their site;

May be you'll have more support when people don't doubt your intentions and values. People are worried when you say human rights you don’t mean human rights but imposing yourself everywhere in the world. Below is form Pakistani law, I don‘t ever see MPACUK complaining about it. This speaks for itself.

ORDINANCE NO. XX OF 1984 PART II - AMENDMENT OF THE PAKISTAN PENAL CODE (ACT XLV OF 1860) (3) 298C... Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves ‘Ahmadis’ or by any other name), who … invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

As expected it did not survive moderation. MPAC certainly in UK are a bunch of double faced hypocrites, not mentioning for a single time let alone condemning the adverse way their ilk treats people in countries where they are in majority.

oceanclub

meraypass wrote: »

In response to MPACUK's hue and cry on allegedly human rights violations of Muslims I posted below on their site;


As expected it did not survive moderation. MPAC certainly in UK are a bunch of double faced hypocrites, not mentioning for a single time let alone condemning the adverse way their ilk treats people in countries where they are in majority.

Over on politics.ie, the MPAC.ie stooge is taking credit for Ireland having equal employment laws and halal food outlets.

Next week: MPAC.ie take credit for free air and water coming out of taps.

P.

wes

oceanclub wrote: »

Over on politics.ie, the MPAC.ie stooge is taking credit for Ireland having equal employment laws and halal food outlets.

Next week: MPAC.ie take credit for free air and water coming out of taps.

P.

Oh dear, they have seemed to have completely lost the plot. Having said that, I am not entirely sure they were aware of one to begin with.

meraypass

oceanclub wrote: »

Next week: MPAC.ie take credit for free air and water coming out of taps.

I'll be shocked if they didn't. P

Sonic_exyouth

meraypass wrote: »

In response to MPACUK's hue and cry on allegedly human rights violations of Muslims I posted below on their site;


As expected it did not survive moderation. MPAC certainly in UK are a bunch of double faced hypocrites, not mentioning for a single time let alone condemning the adverse way their ilk treats people in countries where they are in majority.

Their ilk?

You mean british people?
MPAC in the UK is trying to lobby on behalf of brit muslims. Whats the big deal.
They are as British as any other lobby group.
Condemning them for what happens in pakistan is as logical as a Pakistani condemning me for what Croatian catholics did during the yougoslav civil war!

Sonic_exyouth

meraypass wrote: »

Didn't think so.

I really don't care that much, but all the facts are in Peter Hardy's 1972 book on Islam in india.

oceanclub

meraypass wrote: »

I'll be shocked if they didn't. P

I'd like to take credit for the Enlightenment, Cherry Coke and Bakewell tart.

Please, please; don't all applaud at once.

P.