poppyhill school, anyone been?

moby1

hi guys ive an interview for the music technology course at the poppyhill school in kildare, just wondering if anybody has done a course there or knows anything bout the place , cheers folks

PaulBrewer

moby1 wrote: »

hi guys ive an interview for the music technology course at the poppyhill school in kildare, just wondering if anybody has done a course there or knows anything bout the place , cheers folks

Best of Luck.

I know very little of the place but have never heard anything bad about it.

In our business that's akin to having a Grammy!

moby1

ha ha sweet man thats wat i like to hear!

studiorat

Wouldn't worry too much about the interview. As long as you have the fee's you'll be grand.

Gel

"Wouldn't worry too much about the interview. As long as you have the fee's you'll be grand."

Hi, This is Willie from Poppyhill.
I don't post on this forum much sometimes I feel it's necessary!
I take exception to the comment above! It infers that we are simply money grabbers which we certainly are not! Please don't tar us all with the same brush!
Since when did Studiorat decide our enrolment policy? You don't work here! You've most likely have never been here so you don't know what you're talking about! Yes, there are colleges who will take the money regardless but I hear their names promoted regularly on this forum mainly by a lot of individuals who seem to think that civilisation ends at the long mile road!
For your information anyone who attends for interview here does so so that we can show them our facilities, speak to them about the courses we offer and to emphasize the importance of understanding fully what's required if they wish to attend. We advise all interviewees to take some time to consider whether they should proceed with the application. If after consideration they decide to take the application further we will accept them. If at the initial stage we feel the candidate is not suitable or should postpone their application until they have more experience or knowledge of the industry we do so .WE DO NOT TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE FOR THE SAKE OF IT! We could but we don't! You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who says that the training and facilities here aren't excellent and that they have regretted attending a course here. If you do then it's probably the individual who is the problem and not the school. Of course we want people to pay us fees. We have to survive but we've been around for 20 years and you don't survive that long unless you're good at what you do.
So the original poster can be assured that no one is going to take his hard earned cash just for the sake of it!
To be honest I could say a lot more on the subject on audio training in Ireland and value for money etc. but obviously it would be best and more professional to keep my opinions to myself.

frobisher

Gel wrote: »

"Wouldn't worry too much about the interview. As long as you have the fee's you'll be grand."

Hi, This is Willie from Poppyhill.
I don't post on this forum much sometimes I feel it's necessary!
I take exception to the comment above! It infers that we are simply money grabbers which we certainly are not! Please don't tar us all with the same brush!
Since when did Studiorat decide our enrolment policy? You don't work here! You've most likely have never been here so you don't know what you're talking about! Yes, there are colleges who will take the money regardless but I hear their names promoted regularly on this forum mainly by a lot of individuals who seem to think that civilisation ends at the long mile road!
For your information anyone who attends for interview here does so so that we can show them our facilities, speak to them about the courses we offer and to emphasize the importance of understanding fully what's required if they wish to attend. We advise all interviewees to take some time to consider whether they should proceed with the application. If after consideration they decide to take the application further we will accept them. If at the initial stage we feel the candidate is not suitable or should postpone their application until they have more experience or knowledge of the industry we do so .WE DO NOT TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE FOR THE SAKE OF IT! We could but we don't! You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who says that the training and facilities here aren't excellent and that they have regretted attending a course here. If you do then it's probably the individual who is the problem and not the school. Of course we want people to pay us fees. We have to survive but we've been around for 20 years and you don't survive that long unless you're good at what you do.
So the original poster can be assured that no one is going to take his hard earned cash just for the sake of it!
To be honest I could say a lot more on the subject on audio training in Ireland and value for money etc. but obviously it would be best and more professional to keep my opinions to myself.

Hi Willie, great to have you on the board to discuss Poppyhill. We like both sides of the argument round here.

Maybe studiorat's post came across as more personal than intended. As someone who knows a little about the audio training world out there I personally took it as semi facetious remark about the state of the industry. Maybe it was directly related to you, I can't say. Hopefully he'll clarify himself.

You'd be better served on this board by promoting yourself rather than having a go at those of us who use it regularly. Saying "Yes, there are colleges who will take the money regardless but I hear their names promoted regularly on this forum mainly by a lot of individuals who seem to think that civilisation ends at the long mile road!" is, and I'll put it nicely, a bit off centre. We aren't promoting any other school and we aren't against anything from outside Dublin and we don't have a problem with your school.

I myself am looking to do the Apple certified Logic 101 course and your school is on the shortlist for where to do it. I ain't afraid of no Long Mile Road!

We have a Pimp Your Services thread, you should do a detailed post about what Poppyhill has to offer there. I'm sure many users here, and the uncounted 000's that pass through, would be very interested to hear about it.

moby1

seems things have gone a bit messy here, all i wanted was a bit of info from past pupils on their experiences or whatever but have inadvertently sparked world war 3, ah well, either way im gona go and check out poppyhill and hopefully willie, his staff ,studio and course will meet my expectations!
cheers folks

DamagedTrax

moby1 wrote: »

seems things have gone a bit messy here, all i wanted was a bit of info from past pupils on their experiences or whatever but have inadvertently sparked world war 3, ah well, either way im gona go and check out poppyhill and hopefully willie, his staff ,studio and course will meet my expectations!
cheers folks

you're gonna get differing opinions on here. some think that audio school is a waste of time and money, others think its a great experience and a chance to get your hands dirty on some top class gear. im of the 2nd lot. i'd say go for it and make the most of your time there (by all accounts its a great school, up there with 1 or 2 this side of the long mile road )

moby1

cheeers man

Gel

First of all...Moby 1, don't worry, you did not spark off World war 3! Frankly, I don't have the time to get involved in any boards battles anyway and I've no wish to. I look forward to meeting you and having a balanced conversation outlining what your best course of action is whether it be here or elsewhere.

Secondly, I admit my response was a bit impulsive and should have been a little more reserved.

Thirdly, can I say that I appreciate that like so many on this forum I started out passionate about music and audio technology and I appreciate how dedicated and hard-working you have to be to succeed in this business. So after more than twenty years sometimes it's hard to bite your lip when this issue of money-grabbing schools in audio education comes up or seems to be inferred. So now I've put it on record that that is not our Policy at Poppyhill, I'll hit the mute button on this one.

moby1

well gel thank you for taking the time to come on and personally reply, its nice to see! i look forward to gettin down there and havin a look around!

studiorat

Well Moby, I've worked in the audio education side of things on an off since about 1993, in both the public and the private sector, I've developed courses and I've delivered courses. In both sectors the name of the game is arses on pews. Without which the schools and colleges could not themselves develop, in fact the last place I worked the Media department was the largest in the college and actually supported some of the less well attended courses some years.

In general when interviewing people for courses we looked for people who will stay the distance and not drop out mid year thus wasting a place that someone else could have had. People who attend these courses are from a wide range of backgrounds and do these courses for a wide variety of reasons, only one of which is them seeking a opening as a professional engineer.

In general, the students aren't overly high academic types to begin with. So when we interviewed people we re looking for people who can display an interest in the subject rather than having massive exam results. After all it's not exactly rocket science we're talking about here. Playing in a band, having a computer with maybe Cubase or something like that on it, knowing a bit about a mates studio etc. are all signs that the person is interested. We are more concerned with why the people are doing the course than whether they are going to get straight distinctions across the line.

Considering there are at least 6 such courses within a half an hour of Dublin that I can think of off the top of my head not to mention the Degree and Post Grad courses in Trinity, NUI, Auinger Street etc. There is a definite anxiousness on the part of the course providers to fill the places. Speaking to some other course providers this year I get the impression that the attendance may have peaked in terms of student numbers compared to say 3 or 4 years ago.

Now, I'm not saying any of the courses around the country do not have the students welfare at the top of their agenda. In fact unlike Willy has hinted, I believe they all do, I've lectured in quite a few at this stage. Word of mouth is very strong when it comes to students finding out about courses, interviewing prospective students has shown me this. So a bad rep is definitely not what a college want's to pick up.

But the interviewer will be just as anxious as the interviewee that they are able to and can attend the course. So Moby, unless you are totally unsuitable to attend such a course and a complete numpty you'll be just grand. I mean you had the nonce to find this forum and ask about it which is showing that you have a genuine interest in the subject.

'Rat )

Gel

Okay, Unmute just one more time.
I agree with practically all Studiorat said in his last post. Indeed it is the desire of any college to get people in the door and to bring in an income so that like anyone else we can survive. I think all would agree that this is acceptable. However, the priority is not money first, people second...at least not here as the original reply to Moby 1 would suggest. If this is not what the original post suggested, perhaps Studiorat would clarify this and then I can press the mute button for the final time on this topic.

studiorat

Gel! At the end of the day both private and public providers are businesses, and being a business money talks. I've worked for and had good relationships with a good few college principals who will agree that getting them in the door is of the highest priority.

Whether or not this, as you say is your priority is irrelevant as either way you are required to provide a certain level of Quality Assurance in order to comply with the accrediting body in you case City and Guilds of London. (try dealing with FETAC if you really want to see paperwork BTW)

So, if I decide to run my hypothetical course because I intend to fleece every single student that walks through the door or I genuinely wish to provide excellent student welfare is a moot point, because we are both required to provide a certain level of service to each student, depending on the awards we are working towards.

Now as for the state of audio education I actually think it's in quite good shape for the student. Especially in the last few years since the Universities have become more involved with their courses, there's been more and more competition from course providers for students. However even the colleges who offer higher level qualifications at a fraction of the cost of the private courses, are a little worried this year.

Also, a student who traditionally would have done the City and Guilds 1820 and it's newer replacement now has a much wider choice than ever before. This is a really good thing. The likes of Ballyfermot, Bray and I believe Tralee now offer a Higher National Diploma which allow students to progress directly into a degree level course. I applaud this because it allows students to progress in a way that wasn't previously available. I believe Pulse were completely on the ball too by upping their game this year to the degree course BTW.

'Rat

Gel

I was hoping we could put a lid on this by asking Studiorat to clarify the meaning of his first post hoping that it was not saying what it seems to say. However the insinuation still exists so once again I'm forced to un-mute and reply!
First of all, I agree with you that education is money driven and I'm not trying to claim that we are the only guys with a conscience BUT
The point is: What gives you the right to make the statement in your first reply? You don't represent our school! Even if we were as your post insinuates "Money grabbers" You still would have no right to make this statement. You obviously made the statement based on your knowledge of other colleges you've dealt with. You haven't dealt with ours so you can't speak for us.

"So, if I decide to run my hypothetical course because I intend to fleece every single student that walks through the door or I genuinely wish to provide excellent student welfare is a moot point"

If it's a moot point why did you make the comment about fees in your first post? You raised the issue in the first place, not me or Moby 1

"Being involved in a course with nearly 120 students I'll tell you they are screaming out for students in fact. "
Luckily we don't want or need large numbers like that which is why we won't take anyone who comes through the door with fees regardless of how unsuited they are. BTW I don't see how any college could provide adequate hands-on training with 120 students anyway.

"Also, a student who traditionally would have done the City and Guilds 1820 and it's newer replacement now has a much wider choice than ever before. This is a really good thing. The likes of Ballyfermot, Bray and I believe Tralee now offer a Higher National Diploma which allows students to progress directly into a degree level course. This is great thing and it allows students to progress in a way that wasn't previously available. I believe Pulse were completely on the ball by upping their game this year to the degree course BTW. "

The reason these diplomas/degrees exist is because like you have suggested, it's money driven. Three or four years fees from all these aspiring sound engineers!
Personally, I do believe that doing a course is well worth while. I did one of the first in STC many years ago. I would never have got started in this business without it but a degree to become a sound engineer? Why? Fine if you want to get into some area like R&D or something that demands the more academic subjects covered in degree courses but the way I look at it is that a City & Guilds or similar gives you the basis to work off and then it's down to experience! I would never suggest that you're fully qualified in the true sense by just doing a course. Even with a degree, you would still have to start at the bottom and learn your trade just like anyone else.

"So Gel, bearing in mind that in the past you have stated the importance of certification and we've discussed this before. I stated that the only people who ever asked me for diplomas or degrees were educational institutions."

This contradicts what you stated about a degree path being a great thing. Also I know for a fact that some employers will not take on an employee without some sort of formal qualification although by the way it does not have to be a degree. A City & Guilds is perfectly acceptable.I have had a number of students who had jobs waiting subject to successful completion of their course.

"And considering your statement here and on your site that you have student welfare as your highest priority, seemingly more so than anyone else."

I did not state this. My statement read "the priority is not money first, people second" In other words it is not money even at the expense of people's welfare.

"I'd like to ask you one question. Since a student can enter a degree course directly with a Higher National Diploma, but not with a City and Guilds certificate do you, since you have their welfare at the top of your agenda, inform your prospective students of this fact?"

Some of our students have already earned degrees or post-grads in music technology. They come to us to get a more practical education to supplement the more academic education they have already received.
And if an applicant wishes to discuss degree options then YES I am happy to tell them anything I know. Having said that I don't find that a lot of students wish to pursue a degree. Like you said, a lot of applicants tend not to have an academic nature. Incidentally I have given guest lectures and tutorials in a University that teaches Music Technology. Why would I do that if I want to avoid students joining these courses?

Finally, I think this has got way out of hand and I've been enticed to say much more than I intended or wished to so I think it best if we let this one lie.

studiorat

Gel wrote: »

I was hoping we could put a lid on this by asking Studiorat to clarify the meaning of his first post hoping that it was not saying what it seems to say. However the insinuation still exists so once again I'm forced to un-mute and reply!

I would have said the same had we been discussing any privately run college who charge whatever? If it is possible for a student to find a way to attend and receive financial aid to participate now would be a good time to mention it.

I must say at this stage I feel very strongly about this and would like to see opportunity for students to be able attend the course of their choice regardless of the cost of attending. I had that opportunity, I believe others should too.

I'd rather a few more people actually did voice their opinions regarding this matter and lets put the professionalism back in it's glass case for a minute and not put a lid on it.

Gel wrote: »

First of all, I agree with you that education is money driven and I'm not trying to claim that we are the only guys with a conscience BUT
The point is: What gives you the right to make the statement in your first reply? You don't represent our school! Even if we were as your post insinuates "Money grabbers" You still would have no right to make this statement. You obviously made the statement based on your knowledge of other colleges you've dealt with. You haven't dealt with ours so you can't speak for us.

I suppose I should have said don't think of it as a real interview, it's more of a meeting. And as much of a case of him looking at what you have to offer as much as it is you interviewing him.

If it's a moot point why did you make the comment about fees in your first post? You raised the issue in the first place, not me or Moby 1

It's a moot point because there is a QA procedure for the course you provide and that level must be attained and is checked by external examiners. The providers motives are immaterial assuming the job is done properly.

Luckily we don't want or need large numbers like that which is why we won't take anyone who comes through the door with fees regardless of how unsuited they are. BTW I don't see how any college could provide adequate hands-on training with 120 students anyway.

Once again there's clear guidelines, as to equipment and student numbers as well as contact hours for each subject covered.

The reason these diplomas/degrees exist is because like you have suggested, it's money driven. Three or four years fees from all these aspiring sound engineers!

There are plenty of opportunities for students to avail of funding of various types to pay these fees for this time, for the moment anyway.

Personally, I do believe that doing a course is well worth while. I did one of the first in STC many years ago. I would never have got started in this business without it but a degree to become a sound engineer? Why? Fine if you want to get into some area like R&D or something that demands the more academic subjects covered in degree courses but the way I look at it is that a City & Guilds or similar gives you the basis to work off and then it's down to experience! I would never suggest that you're fully qualified in the true sense by just doing a course. Even with a degree, you would still have to start at the bottom and learn your trade just like anyone else.

I might argue that certain degrees courses actually provide participants with placements. Higher level awards also allow students access to higher pay scales in various avenues of work. Let's not forget that participants in these courses do not all become "sound engineers". A look at your own graduates employment record gives us a good idea of the career paths of many past pupils. Indeed with so many involved in the education sector a degree would certainly be valuable to them as in some cases it would nearly double their salary.

http://www.poppyschool.com/Careers.html

"I'd like to ask you one question. Since a student can enter a degree course directly with a Higher National Diploma, but not with a City and Guilds certificate do you, since you have their welfare at the top of your agenda, inform your prospective students of this fact?"

Some of our students have already earned degrees or post-grads in music technology. They come to us to get a more practical education to supplement the more academic education they have already received.

I must say this suprises me greatly. However, I did state that student's to the city and guilds are from a wide range of backgrounds.

And if an applicant wishes to discuss degree options then YES I am happy to tell them anything I know. Having said that I don't find that a lot of students wish to pursue a degree. Like you said, a lot of applicants tend not to have an academic nature. Incidentally I have given guest lectures and tutorials in a University that teaches Music Technology. Why would I do that if I want to avoid students joining these courses?

In my experience quite a lot of students may not wish to begin like that but quiet a few find they actually change their mind when they find out that the degree option is actually achievable. As for your mentioning your lecturing, are you asking why would you guest lecture if you wanted students to avoid actually attending that college you were guesting in? I'm confused

Finally, I think this has got way out of hand and I've been enticed to say much more than I intended or wished to so I think it best if we let this one lie.

Well you did ask me to clarify my statement. I think by mentioning my opinion on how the OP should in reality look at this interview I have done this to your satisfaction.

frobisher

Late night posts there boys.......dangerous territory

Willie, you seem to be taking everything that studiorat is saying about the behind the scenes of Irish audio education as being directly about you and then defending it. Maybe there's no need to?

studiorat

frobisher wrote: »

Late night posts there boys.......dangerous territory

Comes with the territory, oddly enough.

frobisher

studiorat wrote: »

Comes with the territory, oddly enough.

..hehe... I was going to reply late myself but I rely on my trusty formula of multiplying the minutes past midnight by the amount of beers I'd had to arrive at the % likelihood of posting something I'll regret :-)

Gel

Okay, I think now that maybe we can put this to bed.

"Willie, you seem to be taking everything that studiorat is saying about the behind the scenes of Irish audio education as being directly about you and then defending it. Maybe there's no need to?

The original post and reply by Studiorat related directly to Poppyhill.
The original post related to training experiences at the school. It asked nothing about our enrolment policy. Therefore the initial reply by Studiorat was not relevant to the question but did without doubt insinuate that regardless of the applicant's suitability to the course that payment of fees would guarantee a place. This is not the case and regardless of his opinions, I think that Studiorat should acknowledge that his statement may be incorrect. It's that simple.

With regard to all other points raised about degrees in education etc. I think they should be raised on another thread and then we can all express our opinions without prejudice.

BTW I think there is a lot more that we agree on than disagree on.

moby1

so i guess the answer to my original question is that nobody here has been to poppyhill so i guess il just have to find out for myself

fitz

Exactly...
This thread meandered a bit off topic, but I think from what Gel has said you've nothing to worry about with the interview...you're clearly interested. Just be yourself, don't be afraid to ask questions, and get a feel for the place and what's involved.
You being happy to go there is as important as them being happy to take you!

I've not heard a bad word about the place, and the fact that they have Mick (our own trackmixstudio on this forum) in there doing the Logic courses is, imo, a good sign.

dav nagle

moby1 wrote: »

so i guess the answer to my original question is that nobody here has been to poppyhill so i guess il just have to find out for myself

The recording business like any other business is all about making money doing something you enjoy, if people were paid nothing to teach they would not teach at all. Knowledge is power and if education can lead you to a well paid job doing something you enjoy then that can only but be a great thing. The fact is both of you have made valid points good luck to you all it has been an intersting read, Tom Cruise (Church of Scientology).

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

The recording business like any other business is all about making money doing something you enjoy, if people were paid nothing to teach they would not teach at all. Knowledge is power and if education can lead you to a well paid job doing something you enjoy then that can only but be a great thing. The fact is both of you have made valid points good luck to you all it has been an intersting read, Tom Cruise (Church of Scientology).

Thanks for that moment of clarity Tom ...

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Thanks for that moment of clarity Tom ...

Would you Paul join our church and leave behind the church you love so much? I know you are a respected minister around here.

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

Would you Paul join our church and leave behind the church you love so much? I know you are a respected minister around here.

I've already handed in my crozier and funny hat ...

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I've already handed in my crozier and funny hat ...

Great! It's about time! I will make you one of the most welathiest/richest/mostevilist person ever.

PaulBrewer

Wealthy and Rich ? No thanks ....

woodsdenis

moby1 wrote: »

so i guess the answer to my original question is that nobody here has been to poppyhill so i guess il just have to find out for myself

best post so far

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

best post so far

studiorat

moby1 wrote: »

so i guess the answer to my original question is that nobody here has been to poppyhill so i guess il just have to find out for myself

Why go to just one? I've three on the go at the moment...

@Frobs... I on the wagon, hence wandering around at 4 am!

frobisher

This has been an interesting thread, and it's great to have someone come on and offer the inside track on their school. But I think we've exhausted our foray through the classic classic thesis, antithesis, synthesis here.

Poppyhill seems good place from what I know and studiorats comments are interesting reading but if anyone wants to go further in discussing the general state of Irish audio education please use the thread below as I'm locking this one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055517433&highlight=education

PaulBrewer

Yea