Resource Based Economy

mrodub

Have any of you guys heard of a resource based economy?
A friend introduced me to the idea a while ago and i think its a great idea anyone here heard about it before?

mrodub

hi whats technilogical unemployment?
Yes i think it would help are society alot

gemgem1

hi, I think I have heard of the theory that once enough jobs have been taken over by machines there will slowly be less and less jobs to go around. And once that happens then there will be less money to go around, and lets face it, we live in a world where nothing is built to last. Goods are built to fail to be sure we will go and buy more to keep the system going. I think the Monetary System will crash.

mrodub

Have you guys heard of jacque fresco i heard a lecture from him we he spoke of similar things.
He was talking about the priority of profit and how it affects the day to day life of the average person?

gemgem1

I havent heard of him, what does he promote? Is he for a resource based economy?

gemgem1

mrodub wrote: »

Yes he is the brains lol behind the venus project which is all about a Resource Based Economy he is a social engineer i heard one of his lectures a while ago it was amazing it was about the problems in society and how we only really do patch work at the moment and as long as we have a monatary system it will not change you should look him up he is very interesting

Cool, thankyou, I will look him up. Can I see any of his lectures on you tube? If I google him will he come up?

In a Resource Based Economy who would decide who gets what resource? Would we have technology do it as it may be fair and impartial?

gemgem1

mrodub wrote: »

He talks alot about behavoir be learned for example if you raise a chinese baby in england the child will develop the language and mannerisms of an english person so he belives people can be educated and made aware so they will help each other

I know what you are saying, I am familiar with that concept.
If a child is brought up to belive that violence is the only way then as an adult 99% will act as they were reared. Don't anyone get me wrong, I dont mean all! It is great someone is out there making people aware that they don't have to live like that, changing 'karma' so to speak!

Hae Jaques Fresco put much into the designing of the Resource Based Economy?I will go check him out now.

mrodub

I think he is the man who created the concept of a resource based economy.
He talks about using science in a positive fashion for the betterment of humanity and not for war his ideas are about a world without money,it sounds mad at first but check out his ideas they are actually very good and would work if implemented.
he talks about how money creates scarcity and forces dishonesty for example "if i was in business and was selling a lamp but told you there was a better lamp next door cheaper i would not be in business very long so you see there are no ethics in business because you could not afford it"
He talks about how governments are corrupt as well is amazing stuff its sounds like nothing new but he goes into such detail like i have never heard before

Joycey

OK... So what exactly is this resource based economy?

If you guys are interested in alternative economic systems take a look at this video: http://www.zcommunications.org/zvideo/3114
Its well worth watching, the guy has some good ideas, the whole znet site is a really good source for left-wing news and analysis.

Participatory economics

Permabear

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mrodub

donegalfella wrote: »

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Hi donegalfella i looked into what you said about it being a form of communism and found it differs tremondosly from it
Communism used money and labor, had social stratification, and elected officials to maintain the communists' traditions.Communism did not eliminate scarcity nor did they have a blueprint or the methods for the production of abundance.They also had to maintain huge military expenditures to protect themselves from invasion of fascistic and capitalistic institutions.
Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders. The Venus Project's idea is to surpass the need for the use of money. Police, prisons and the military would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people.
The Venus Project would replace politicians with a cybernated society in which all of the physical entities are managed and operated by computerized systems. The only region that the computers do not operate or manage is the surveillance of human beings. A society that uses technology without human concern has no basis of surviva in my opinionl.
The Venus Project's aim is to surpass the need for the use of money. Police, prisons, banking, advertising, stockbrokers, military, and government would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people.
One of Communism's concerns is the condition of labor and the working class. The Venus Project's major concerns are producing products with limited labor and eventually eliminating labor and at the same time giving people all the amenities of a prosperous, high energy society.
The system uses no money and makes goods and services available without a price tag, debt, barter, or servitude of any kind. If technology is used intelligently, it can create an abundance of goods and services for the entire planet.
The purpose of this high technology is to free people so they can pursue their own interests and fulfillments.
There is no taxation or obligation of any kind.It advocates no government by human systems.In Communisim you were obligated to work
I realize this is a simplified description of how it differs from communism as i am new to the idea but i think there is a massive difference also a point to note is the venus project does not condone violence as Communism did and they are against all forms of persecution Communism was not Karl Marx once said people must be educated even if it means by forcing them into camps so i think it differs tremendosly from communism.

Permabear

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Joycey

The Bolsheviks founded the Red Army to maintain internal control during the Russian Civil War. They subsequently used that army both to invade and attack numerous other nations, and to perpetrate genocide on their own people. By the 1980s, the Soviets had more troops and weapons than any other nation, and their intention was most certainly not self-defence.

Well by the time the Soviets were fighting the cold war its not like they were living in any kind of an ideal society which is what mrodub is proposing. The fact that they needed an army as distinct from the people in the first place goes to show that traditional Marxist ideas having to do with it not being possible to gain power except through military/revolutionary means are deeply flawed. Were a movement to actually have enough popular support to bring it to power democratically, or at least that the people had the capacity to overpower whatever state apparatus was already in place, then there would be no need for an army.


I dont agree with the technological idealism which seems to be necessary for your vision of this resource based economy to work mrodub. Clearly we dont have the technology to do put into place the kind of vast system your talking about. What this allows for is people to just sit around and wait until the technology comes into being which will allow us to make your society a reality. Instead of this, why not take a look at that video I posted earlier? Heres the link again: http://www.zcommunications.org/zvideo/3114


Hes talking about really simple, really effective ways to eliminate things like social stratification etc right now, and he does a really good job of putting things in everyday language and not getting lost up his own ass with academic language or vapid idealism.

mrodub

Hi
My point was not to explain the ideas of the venus project to you it was to show it was not communism which i did, it is not.
Of course it sounds naive if i only post one sentence on a particular aspect of a social theory, you have to read the theory before you say its right or its wrong a few lines that only explain the ideas and not details will always sound naive if you dont read the rest.
I understand at first it sounds strange but if you actually take the time to read the theory before you form an opinion all the points you have stressed have been addressed
Just to address one point you made because there is to much in your post to address all at once.The Veus Project never said it would rid the world of every crime or that they would create a utopia the theory is most crimes are related to money which they are there have been numerous studies over the years that have proved there is more crime in poorer comunites and less educated comunities so it is not naive to think that if people prosper and are educated that there would be less crime
You should really look up the site dude there is some interesting stuff on there alot of what you said is addressed as they are very valid concerns with the theory but they take there time and go through each aspect very thuroghly you would enjoy it i think:)

mrodub

Another point you made is people are working more than ever i agree 100% and so does the venus project.
The idea is that we have the potential to work less, but under a monatary system that cant happen as we need people to work to earn money so they can buy things and perpetuate the system.
The venus project realises this and goes into great detail about the potentail of technology without a monatary system and there is massive potential.
I though pretty much the same way you did until i actually read all jaque frescos work you should read it dude you would enjoy it if you think about stuff like this even if you dont agree when your done you would still enjoy it
Can we post links here?

mrodub

Joycey wrote: »

I dont agree with the technological idealism which seems to be necessary for your vision of this resource based economy to work mrodub. Clearly we dont have the technology to do put into place the kind of vast system your talking about. What this allows for is people to just sit around and wait until the technology comes into being which will allow us to make your society a reality. Instead of this, why not take a look at that video I posted earlier? Heres the link again: http://www.zcommunications.org/zvideo/3114


.

Thanks man i will check out the link.
Just a quick point to note we do have the technology available at the moment but under a monatary system it is uesed for war, profit etc.Have you seen adendum yet it talks all about todays technology in the last part its very good.
A simple example is we have enough food in the world but not enough money to feed everyone i know this is a very simple way to put it but if you check out addendum there is very good section in the last part all about technology you should check it out its explained better than i can lol

Joycey

Argh. Went onto the venus project website and apparently they are the same crowd who made that sh1te film "Zeitgeist the movie". A mush of a load of different conspiracy theories and populist ravings...

I mean, youve got the right idea, the monetary system is something which would be fantastic to get rid of, but proposing some kind of gigantic supercomputer to manage our resources and production etc as an alternative is rediculous.

Read some anarchist or neo-marxist theorists if you want to oppose the current system, not conspiracy theorists who spout nonsense about "utopian/futurism" and "redesigning a future without politics, poverty or war". How is it possible to have a future without politics? My every action is political...

mrodub

Hi
I dont think the idea is quite how you put it lol but check out the menus they explain the questions you just asked about how to exist without politcs etc
I think you will find that jacue fresco did not make the movies and that the guy who did retracted the conspiracy bits later on as they were irrelavant (which they were in my opinion)he released a new film addendum which sticks with the facts and is about jacque frescos ideas and not conspiricy you should check it out its a good movie
I have read alot of stuff from marx and think alot of what he said was valid but his ideas to implement them i do not agree with ie forced labor camps if nessacary

Joycey

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

Brilliant set of around 19 or 20 5 minute or so lectures on exactly why our current economic system is completely fcucked. Starts off kinda slow for the first couple, like explaining wbhat exponential growth and stuff is but it turns into a really good, easy to understand analysis of the instability and unrealistic expectations which are part and parcel of the global financial system.

mrodub

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&ei=y1gJSrHmFIOb-AaU4tywBA&q=addendum

Hi thanks for the vid i will watch it later on i found addendum on google vid check it out its very good and true to jaque frescos ideas and not conspiricy stuff lol

Joycey

mrodub wrote: »

Hi
I dont think the idea is quite how you put it lol but check out the menus they explain the questions you just asked about how to exist without politcs etc
I think you will find that jacue fresco did not make the movies and that the guy who did retracted the conspiracy bits later on as they were irrelavant (which they were in my opinion)he released a new film addendum which sticks with the facts and is about jacque frescos ideas and not conspiricy you should check it out its a good movie
I have read alot of stuff from marx and think alot of what he said was valid but his ideas to implement them i do not agree with ie forced labor camps if nessacary

My problem isnt necessarily with him not retracting the conspiracy bits, or whatever noble aspirations he mights have, but more with the tone which he adopts in his film. Why does he feel the need to sensationalise and exadurate everything? These things are serious problems, theyr real, and they need to be adressed. Anybody who adopts the tone of a documentary made by FOX in my opinion deserves to have their work treated like one, with the utmost suspicion and distrust. Until its proven otherwise Im just going to assume they are trying to make money from anyone who actually gets taken in by it and so I would rather get information from sources I trust...

Il have a look at that addendum one though . I think it might get taken down if its copyrighted tho...



Nah sorry, doesnt do it for me. Tell the guy to come back when he has something which I can take seriously as a documentary. I mean, he encourages you to use Pay Pall, a massive multinational corporation, in order to donate money to this "Venus Foundation", but at the same time claims to be uncovering the evils of the monetary system :rolleyes:

mrodub

Hi i understand your feelings about the first film as mine were similar but i dont believe in cutting of a source of information because i disagree with somthing they od or have done because i belive if i did that we really would need to live in a utopia.
They do not make a profit at all and are transparent with there funds

megmeg

I have seen the movies myself, I find them very informing and not sensational at all. In a worl were there are such serious problems I think movies like this are needed.
I dont think they take on a Fox documentary feel at all! It is made by an American, Irish documentaries often have a particular feel to them too.

I dont think it is a good idea to just dismiss such an amazing concept on that basis, and because you 'feel' it isnt right.

I see problems with it too, but it is the concept I feel is great, not the details. Details can be changed.

mrodub

i agree 100% i think it is very close minded to shut out a wealth of information because you disagree with one or two things.Does it make the general message any less true of course not but it depends on your value process and weather you hold a rigid closed easily threatened by questioning value process or a mature fluid one that is open to new information at all times so to me its really more of a question of how open minded are you

megmeg

It is never a good idea to dismiss something without looking into it fully.

Mrodub, thanks for posting this thread as it made me look into the Venus Project much more, and I looked into the two Zeitgeist movies more too.

I have to say I am impressed with Jaques Fresco, and his amazing, and practical mind.

I have found many more questions on the movement and The Venus Project, but I have been asking questions on the official site, and they answer them well.

I am so impressed with the modes of transport in the Venus Project, imagine never having an accident again!!

mrodub

No problem at all i am new to the idea as well and still have questions but the idea gets better the more you look into it
Its easy to shut down to new info but that is silly the more you read into this the better and more visable it seems

gar32

Seems there are more and more people getting interested in this. Any one know if the Irish site is good and if any plans to do something in Ireland in the way of venus project? Could we have to go to say "people before profit" and see if they would back Ireland's part in all this? I only start watching and reading about this on Wednesday and already have spent a lot of time on it. Can something like this really change the world for the better. I am hoping and will look deeper into all this. I would say to anyone reading this to watch the 2nd movie for sure. I work for a mulitnational company and use robots everyday so the manufaturing part is not far from our reach now. Something will happen if this Idea takes hold.

Enjoy and keep looking into the Venus Project !!!!

mrodub

Yes the irish site is cool and there is a good forum there as well i dont think we can post links here so just google it
I am the same as yourself i only heard about it a while ago and the more i look into it the more it seems possible although at first glance i thought i was wrong but that was me being closed minded and not giving it a chance and i am glad i did in the end

gar32

I had a look at the site and seems your there Mrodub Not so many people using it yet. I will keep an eye on it and see if it grows

mrodub

LOL yes i am on that forum and the main site one as well and of course this one.Its still a new site so we will see how it goes could be good in time:D

megmeg

Lol, I signed up too. You wont guess me though! It is a great site, and it is growing quick. I have been researching the Venus Project on an almost daily basis for afew months now, and I am really impressed with it too.
Hope to see some of you therexxx

kowloon

Never mentioned the communist manifesto, editing out seeing as I'll be taken out of context. Look up epochs of production.

mrodub

Hi i would suggest you read the FAQ section and look at the point you made about communisim the reason i am not posting it up is because there is to much and it would take to long you should at least look at the idea properly before you close down to it there is so much more to it than you posted
Were in the communist manifesto does it say replace human labor with machines?

megmeg

mrodub wrote: »

Hi i would suggest you read the FAQ section and look at the point you made about communisim the reason i am not posting it up is because there is to much and it would take to long you should at least look at the idea properly before you close down to it there is so much more to it than you posted
Were in the communist manifesto does it say replace human labor with machines?

I would like to see this too, where does it say it??