Locke figured out?

Newaglish

Think I have figured this one out:


(Spoiler up to last week's episdoe!)


In S5x15 we see Locke telling Richard to tell injured Locke to get everyone back to the island and then die.

Given that the writers have been careful enough (as far as I can see) not to create any time paradoxes, surely this must mean that present-day Locke is the smoke monster and not Locke himself.

Otherwise, we have a situation where Locke is back on the island as a result of something he did in the past, which he didn't do until the future. Or something.

Also when Ben meeks smokey in the temple, Locke isn't nearby.

As badly written as that may be, I am positive I'm right. Positive!

jor el

A causal loop? Maybe, but I think they're covered, since it wasn't really Locke's idea to bring Richard to meet his other self, the Island told Locke where and when to be. As such, the Island is influencing things, and just used Locke as a vessel to tell Richard where to be.

I think that's enough to get them out of that hole. The compass is a bit more worrying, as it seems to have come from nowhere. Richard gives shot-Locke the compass to give back to Richard in the 30s. Richard in 2007 then gives that compass to Locke, who gives it back to Richard to give to shot-Locke. Seems like nobody actually ever owned the compass, and it just came from within the time loop, which is a bit impossible.

Psychedelic

jor el wrote: »

I think that's enough to get them out of that hole. The compass is a bit more worrying, as it seems to have come from nowhere. Richard gives shot-Locke the compass to give back to Richard in the 30s. Richard in 2007 then gives that compass to Locke, who gives it back to Richard to give to shot-Locke. Seems like nobody actually ever owned the compass, and it just came from within the time loop, which is a bit impossible.

The writers talk about the compass in their latest podcast. They basically acknowledge the paradox but said they did it intentionally, as they're are some things in the show they want to still have a bit of magic or mystery about them. They also mention the "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" question.

PetKing

jor el wrote: »

The compass is a bit more worrying, as it seems to have come from nowhere. Richard gives shot-Locke the compass to give back to Richard in the 30s. Richard in 2007 then gives that compass to Locke, who gives it back to Richard to give to shot-Locke. Seems like nobody actually ever owned the compass, and it just came from within the time loop, which is a bit impossible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobius_loop

Ever seen Star Trek IV: The voyage home?? A bit nerdy but howsever...

Kirk and co. travels back in time to 1986, and sells his ancient pair of glasses given to him by Dr.McCoy for cash...

23rd century.. the glasses make their way into Dr.McCoys hands, who gives them to Kirk as a birthday present...

Loop complete.. while it's all a bit magical as you say.. it's all very theoretically possible.. or at least more possible than vanishing islands!!

Sad Professor

PetKing wrote: »

Kirk and co. travels back in time to 1986, and sells his ancient pair of glasses given to him by Dr.McCoy for cash...

23rd century.. the glasses make their way into Dr.McCoys hands, who gives them to Kirk as a birthday present...

Loop complete..

I wouldn't consider this a loop. The glasses most likely had a origin in the 18th/19th century. So when Kirk brings them back in time in 1986 there is a younger version of those glasses already in that time period. Kirk's line about them being a gift again in the future was a joke.

The compass, however, really has no origin, making it an ontological paradox as it would continue to age and would eventually turn to dust. This screws up what should be a closed loop. I understand what the writers were trying to achieve with it - the chicken and the egg analogy - but it doesn't work with physical objects.

me-skywalker

Sad Professor wrote: »

The compass, however, really has no origin, making it an ontological paradox as it would continue to age and would eventually turn to dust. This screws up what should be a closed loop..........

but doesnt richard say to locke, 'here it is but its all rusted now, but still points north' not verbatim...

purple_hatstand

Sad Professor wrote: »

I wouldn't consider this a loop. The glasses most likely had a origin in the 18th/19th century. So when Kirk brings them back in time in 1986 there is a younger version of those glasses already in that time period. Kirk's line about them being a gift again in the future was a joke.

The compass, however, really has no origin, making it an ontological paradox as it would continue to age and would eventually turn to dust. This screws up what should be a closed loop. I understand what the writers were trying to achieve with it - the chicken and the egg analogy - but it doesn't work with physical objects.

Are you sure we know for a fact that the compass didn't exist before any of the times we've seen it so far? I may have missed something, but I would guess at a connection between the compass and 'The Black Rock', thereby placing the compass's creation comfortably before any time period we have yet seen on the show.

Blaming the writers of a mystery/scifi show for screwing up before they've given all of their answers to their mysteries seems rather pointless. (Unless, as I said, I've missed something).

Soby

my head hutrs:(

Sad Professor

purple_hatstand wrote: »

Are you sure we know for a fact that the compass didn't exist before any of the times we've seen it so far? I may have missed something, but I would guess at a connection between the compass and 'The Black Rock', thereby placing the compass's creation comfortably before any time period we have yet seen on the show.

No, the compass definitely has no origin. Like I said, if they had slightly modified Richard's dialogue we probably could have inferred something like the above but they made it pretty clear.

Locke gives it to Richard in 1954 > who gives it to time-travelling Locke in 2007 > who gives it back to Richard in 1954 > and so on.

The writers have acknowledged that the compass is a paradox.

Now, who knows, depending on how the time travel business is concluded in the finale, we might get a better explanation for the compass. But if the writers don't deviate from the closed loop theory of time travel they've been using all season, then the compass is a minor flaw.

PetKing

Ok, if Richard (2007) gave the compass to Locke (2007) so that Richard (1954) would listen to Locke (1954)... then surely Richard (1954) has the same compass at this time. So he potentionally has 2 compasses in 1954. Is it conceivable then that each time around the loop, Richard gets rid of 1 compass for another, so that it does'nt turn to dust??

Penn

PetKing wrote: »

Ok, if Richard (2007) gave the compass to Locke (2007) so that Richard (1954) would listen to Locke (1954)... then surely Richard (1954) has the same compass at this time. So he potentionally has 2 compasses in 1954. Is it conceivable then that each time around the loop, Richard gets rid of 1 compass for another, so that it does'nt turn to dust??

Thats what I would think too. Richard (1954) has compass (A). Locke arrives and gives him an identical compass (B) so as to prove that he met Richard in the future. Locke (2007) asks Richard if he still has the compass (B). Richard then gives compass B to Locke before he goes back to 1954 and gives it back to Richard.

Compass B is in a loop. Richard should still have compass A which was his to begin with

Niall0

Sad Professor wrote: »

The compass, however, really has no origin, making it an ontological paradox as it would continue to age and would eventually turn to dust. This screws up what should be a closed loop. I understand what the writers were trying to achieve with it - the chicken and the egg analogy - but it doesn't work with physical objects.

What if the loop only happened once though, you could look at it as starting at 2007 going to the 50s, going back to 2007 with the loop closed. Locke only went back in time once. This stuff gets confusing really easy.

Or maybe its just a magic compass that doesnt age for some reason just like Richard.

redpanda26

Soby wrote: »

my head hutrs:(

I'm a bit confused about the whole locke thing. Hes back on the island in 2007 or present day as the case may be and at the same time he can bring richard and ben to the plane site where he was just after he got shot which if memory serves was caused by ethan in one of the flashes back in time. If this is so how can he NOW be showing ben and richard this if it happened a few years previous. does anyone know what im on about?

Tragamin2k2

redpanda26 wrote: »

I'm a bit confused about the whole locke thing. Hes back on the island in 2007 or present day as the case may be and at the same time he can bring richard and ben to the plane site where he was just after he got shot which if memory serves was caused by ethan in one of the flashes back in time. If this is so how can he NOW be showing ben and richard this if it happened a few years previous. does anyone know what im on about?

After ethan shot him he skipped through time again and ended up obviously in the future, in the timeline thats actually now happening

FredBloggs

Newaglish wrote: »

Think I have figured this one out:


(Spoiler up to last week's episdoe!)


In S5x15 we see Locke telling Richard to tell injured Locke to get everyone back to the island and then die.

Given that the writers have been careful enough (as far as I can see) not to create any time paradoxes, surely this must mean that present-day Locke is the smoke monster and not Locke himself.

Otherwise, we have a situation where Locke is back on the island as a result of something he did in the past, which he didn't do until the future. Or something.

Also when Ben meeks smokey in the temple, Locke isn't nearby.

As badly written as that may be, I am positive I'm right. Positive!

Very perceptive

purple_hatstand

Newaglish wrote: »

Think I have figured this one out:


(Spoiler up to last week's episdoe!)


In S5x15 we see Locke telling Richard to tell injured Locke to get everyone back to the island and then die.

Given that the writers have been careful enough (as far as I can see) not to create any time paradoxes, surely this must mean that present-day Locke is the smoke monster and not Locke himself.

Otherwise, we have a situation where Locke is back on the island as a result of something he did in the past, which he didn't do until the future. Or something.

Also when Ben meeks smokey in the temple, Locke isn't nearby.

As badly written as that may be, I am positive I'm right. Positive!

Might I also offer my congrats....I knew something was amiss, but I was nowhere near this close! Nice one!

cooker3

Yeah good job.

Killaqueen!!!

I'm glad I only read OPs post now