what type of mathmatics is needed for structural engineering?

TomRooney

I am considering going to college as a mature student and i am curious as to what type of mathmatics would be particular to structural Engineering.

any help would be very much appreciated.

kenco

Used to be minimum of hons leaving cert maths. Doubt its changed but there might be some lee way as a mature student.

Call up one of the DITs or RTCs and have a chat with their Eng office who should be able to help you out

Good luck!

TomRooney

kenco wrote: »

Used to be minimum of hons leaving cert maths. Doubt its changed but there might be some lee way as a mature student.

Call up one of the DITs or RTCs and have a chat with their Eng office who should be able to help you out

Good luck!

Thanks, I dont have any Leaving cert Maths, but i do have a good ability to learn, so i was curious about the specific type of Maths needed so i could study it myself just to see if i can get my head around it before i actualy apply.

such as Calc, linear algebra etc which would be the most relevant to study.

dan_d

Graduated from engineering in UCD 2 years ago.You need min C1 (I think) in hons LC maths.No one maths type is more applicable than another.You cover all aspects again.Structural engineering will probably have a maths class aswell as part of it, so you'll definitely need everything for that.They probably won't take you if you tell them you've studied certain aspects of maths to LC level, you need to be able to pass the LC hons maths papers and you need a science subjest aswell.

TomRooney

dan_d wrote: »

Graduated from engineering in UCD 2 years ago.You need min C1 (I think) in hons LC maths.No one maths type is more applicable than another.You cover all aspects again.Structural engineering will probably have a maths class aswell as part of it, so you'll definitely need everything for that.They probably won't take you if you tell them you've studied certain aspects of maths to LC level, you need to be able to pass the LC hons maths papers and you need a science subjest aswell.

thanks for that, but are you sure you need every type of maths, such as complex numbers, differential eqautions, Linear algebra, quadratic eqautions, vectors, chaos theory......

or is there specific mathmatics on the course.

Voodu Child

In TCD we did 2 years of mathematics courses, 2 courses per year. The course syllabus is on the website if you want to read about the types of maths involved.
http://www.tcd.ie/Engineering/undergraduate/baiyear1/
http://www.tcd.ie/Engineering/undergraduate/baiyear2/

You'd want a good grounding in LC-level maths before looking at any degree level stuff tbh.

Jonathan

voodoo_child wrote: »

In TCD we did 2 years of mathematics courses, 2 courses per year. The course syllabus is on the website if you want to read about the types of maths involved.
http://www.tcd.ie/Engineering/undergraduate/baiyear1/
http://www.tcd.ie/Engineering/undergraduate/baiyear2/

You'd want a good grounding in LC-level maths before looking at any degree level stuff tbh.

Not 3 years? 3E1 and 3E2 as it is now?

pljudge321

Heres a list of all the module for the Bsc part of the UCD degree.

https://sisweb.ucd.ie/usis/w_sm_web_inf_viewer_banner.show_major?p_term_code=200800&p_cao_code=DN078&p_major_code=NAS1

Id say maths wise you'd want to get yourself up to a good grade leaving cert honours standard in calculus and algebra, I wouldn't bother with linear algebra/matrices as this is covered quite comprehensively in first year. Also getting to grips with LC physics and applied maths would be a very good idea as a lot of people who have never done these before can struggle a lot with some subjects in first year.

If your serious about this Id say do the maths yourself if your able or enroll in a grinds class for leaving cert maths and applied maths. You would definitely be grateful you had when you enter first year.

dan_d

Of course some stuff is more useful than others. I'm just saying if you're applying to somewhere like UCD, I presume you apply through the CAO and you're just a number to them. Therefore you have to have passed LC maths and to do that you need to cover everything.It's not really a personal thing where you tell them what you've covered and they say you've hit the right areas, you'll be fine.
Sorry I don't mean to be smart, it's been a long day!Maybe if you could explain what application process you're looking at?Coz I'm pretty sure the CAO is the main way.I'm sure you'll be well able for it but you do have to have a good grounding in all maths tbh, because engineering courses start in fairly quickly in heavy maths and you'll be a bit lost other wise .They assume you've learned certain things in the LC

Kareir

TomRooney wrote: »

thanks for that, but are you sure you need every type of maths, such as complex numbers, differential eqautions, Linear algebra, quadratic eqautions, vectors, chaos theory......

or is there specific mathmatics on the course.

Well, I'm not an engineer, but i do know you need Complex Numbers, at least for Electronic, or so this book i bought (50 mathematical ideas you really need to know - tony crilly) says, though it neglects to explain how. (actually, if someone could tell me that, i'd be grateful :P)
Also, a lot of maths such as Quadratics are needed for solving other things, not just as stand-alone topics. Also, i think it's a C3 in higher LC maths and one science. It MAY be different for mature applicants, though, which i'm pretty sure doesn't require CAO application.


_Kar.

Voodu Child

Jonathan wrote: »

Not 3 years? 3E1 and 3E2 as it is now?

Could be, it was all a bit of a blur tbh :pac:

Jonathan

voodoo_child wrote: »

Could be, it was all a bit of a blur tbh :pac:

Haha. What year you graduate?

They have now effectively done away with maths dept thought maths in 3rd year and replaced it with eng thought maths.

pmg58

If you dont have LC Maths, then you should definitely get a decent grounding in calculus. They will expect a certain standard of maths, it wont be easy to pick it all up if much of its brind new to you, have you considered maybe doing some kind of course in it to prepare you? Or even goin back to do the LC?

EDIT: Actually vectors would be another important one.

TomRooney

thanks to everyone for the advice it will be a great help in researching the right way to go, i have considered doing a year long foundation Engineering course, I have a background in Bricklaying so have done a bit of maths in bolton street tech in phase 4 and 6 of the apprenticeship but nothing as advanced as would be required for the degree in Engineering.

I am applying as a mature student based on my experience working on building sites since i was 16, i am 27 now and would like to upskill as there is not much of a future for trades men in Ireland at the minute.

Jimbo

I'd recommend studying up on physics aswell - especially forces, mechanics etc.

duffman85

Hi I'm a graduate civil/structural engineer.

for most honours degree courses - you need a minimum of C3 in Leaving Cert Honours maths.

Types of maths used - mainly Calculus & Linear Algebra/Matrices from what I remember. Calculus is used in alot of the derivations of formulas you use to calculate forces,deflections etc.

Matrices/Linear Algebra was used a good bit in Theory of Structures - calculating deflections due to loads and loads in the members of trusses.

We did a bit on the theory of finite element analysis(a way of modelling stress and strain) in final year which involved a lot of calculus and algebra.

I went to UCD and there was maths in 1st,2nd and 3rd year and the structural modelling in 4th year was almost another maths course.
I'm not tryin to scare you but it does need a good understanding of maths.

DIT do ordinary degree courses which only require ordinary level maths and can then lead on to an honours degree course. You can also do a 1 year course that brings you up to speed if you don't have higher level maths.

details are here: http://engzone.dit.ie/engdit.html

Best of luck with it.

Kareir

Hey,

UCD run a course for Adults that dont have nessessary CAO things, specifically for science and engineering, and if you want to do engineering, you do extra maths instead of biology. Might help.

http://www.ucd.ie/adulted/courses/ex430.htm

_Kar

TomRooney

Thats great lads, ill check out those courses, i think i will be better off opting for some kind of intro course as you have posted, so ill check them out and see were i go from there.

do you know of any books i might get which can help me self learn the relevant mathmatics...?

Kareir

Hmm, well, you could try the Leaving Cert. Stuff? Consise Maths, probably 3 and up, depending on how good you are.. Also, try the Less Stress, More Sucess maths, it might help, and i hear it's good.

_Kar.

Tails142

Hey DIT Structural Engineering graduate here - most of what comes up is in the posts above.

What I would say to you is don't worry about the maths. There are much harder parts of the course than the maths subject. All the maths is taken slowly and a lot of it hasnt been covered in Leaving Cert, there are also extra tutorials available in addition to the lectures, most people dont bother going to the tutorials, but if you're finding something difficult you can always go and they will help you big time. Also DIT has a special maths centre which holds tutorials coming up to exams, you just bring your notes and exam papers and they help you through them.

If I was you what I would be concerned about are the Physics and Chemistry parts of the course as well as the Mechanics (Applied Maths). At the end of the day the Maths is only a tool to understand these subjects and once you focus on these the maths will fall into place.

The 1 year engineering prep course is good if you havent had any exposure to these subjects before, but to be honest with you, if you can at all get straight into the honours degree program somehow as a mature student you should definetly go for it. The pace in first year is fairly easy going and the lecturers are great so if you are coming in and not understanding things at first they will definetly help you get up to speed.

If you're looking for books just take a look at some leaving cert books, I'm not sure on chemistry but the Applied Maths one is brown and I think called 'Applied Mathematics', I think its the only applied maths book (or was a few years ago) and its used in the DIT course too. The maths book is 'Engineering Mathematics' by Stroud.

The main topics you will need to cover in first year are; differentiation, integration, matrices, solving quadratic equation. Pretty much all leaving cert stuff except for matrices which arent covered in the leaving cert as far as I know. I dont think you cover trigonometry or geometry as far as I recall its just assumed.

I realise this post is running a bit long at this stage but the main thing to remember is that the majority of people in the course will be half pissed most of the time and wont be able to recall a single thing from their leaving cert studies due to the amount of brain cells they've killed off. As such you'll all be starting from an even playing field, and that the only reason there are requirements for C3 in maths or whatever is to ensure that the students have the aptitude to be capable of completing the course. If you feel you do, and the impression you give here is that you have an interest in maths which is the most important thing to have at the end of the day then you should do fine.

Best of luck with the app and remember try to go straight for the honours degree if you can, Joe Kindregan is the head of the structural engineering school, can be a bit of an arsehole at times, gives off a 'I hate students' vibe which makes you wonder why he's in teaching - Try to get in touch and have a meeting with John Turner, he's the head of the Faculty/School of Engineering/Built Environment, not sure which exactly, but he's over all the types of engineering and he's bang on dead sound.

TomRooney

just a quick questioin regards the actual learning of the mathmatics, are you allowed use a calculator, i mean do they teach you the formula and you then can use a calculator....?
or is it all done by the led of the pencil.

Tails142

yeah scientific calculator - but the hard part is remembering the formula/technique. in fact i'm not sure if you even need to use a calculator much in maths - definetly for physics/applied maths

TomRooney

Tails142 wrote: »

yeah scientific calculator - but the hard part is remembering the formula/technique. in fact i'm not sure if you even need to use a calculator much in maths - definetly for physics/applied maths

so you are not expected to know these formula already and they are thought on the course, if that is so then it may be a little easier than i first thought, not that i think it is easy.

i suppose the hardest part is getting your head around the concept of the particular formula or trying to relate it to something physical..?

and once you write the formula down as it is given then practice and practice it, it should eventualy sink in.

Fake Tales

you could look at doing the cert diploma degree route, it only requires pass maths in CIT but takes a year longer and its hard to get from diploma to degree level. Still might be worth looking at carlow, sligo and waterford ITs

Turbulent Bill

Tails142 wrote: »

What I would say to you is don't worry about the maths. There are much harder parts of the course than the maths subject. All the maths is taken slowly and a lot of it hasnt been covered in Leaving Cert, there are also extra tutorials available in addition to the lectures, most people dont bother going to the tutorials, but if you're finding something difficult you can always go and they will help you big time. Also DIT has a special maths centre which holds tutorials coming up to exams, you just bring your notes and exam papers and they help you through them.

If I was you what I would be concerned about are the Physics and Chemistry parts of the course as well as the Mechanics (Applied Maths). At the end of the day the Maths is only a tool to understand these subjects and once you focus on these the maths will fall into place.

The 1 year engineering prep course is good if you havent had any exposure to these subjects before, but to be honest with you, if you can at all get straight into the honours degree program somehow as a mature student you should definetly go for it. The pace in first year is fairly easy going and the lecturers are great so if you are coming in and not understanding things at first they will definetly help you get up to speed.

If you're looking for books just take a look at some leaving cert books, I'm not sure on chemistry but the Applied Maths one is brown and I think called 'Applied Mathematics', I think its the only applied maths book (or was a few years ago) and its used in the DIT course too. The maths book is 'Engineering Mathematics' by Stroud.

The main topics you will need to cover in first year are; differentiation, integration, matrices, solving quadratic equation. Pretty much all leaving cert stuff except for matrices which arent covered in the leaving cert as far as I know. I dont think you cover trigonometry or geometry as far as I recall its just assumed.

I think maths could be the OP's biggest hurdle. It's effectively the language of engineering, and if you're not as proficient as your classmates, you might struggle. Remember even the drunk students have done LC maths, and won't need much of a refresher to get back to speed. I've tutored undergrad eng students in a few subjects, and usually when problems occured in wasn't with the subject itself but with the understanding of the underlying maths.

TomRooney, I'd strongly advise doing at least part of the LC maths course during the summer, both as a maths primer and to get into study mode. I'm not sure what JC level you did (or if you left before this), either way the LC course is the bit you're missing. Don't worry about getting it 100%, just make sure you're familiar with the concepts. Most colleges have excellent mature student services these days too for study groups etc. - you certainly won't be alone.

Best of luck, let us know how you get on.

Michael Collins

Kareir wrote: »

Well, I'm not an engineer, but i do know you need Complex Numbers, at least for Electronic, or so this book i bought (50 mathematical ideas you really need to know - tony crilly) says, though it neglects to explain how. (actually, if someone could tell me that, i'd be grateful :P)...

If you care to start another thread, I'll do my best at explaining it.

Ninja101

TomRooney wrote: »

would like to upskill as there is not much of a future for trades men in Ireland at the minute.

There's not much of a future for structural engineers either.

miss no stars

I'm in the middle of the structural engineering course in DIT at the moment.

In first year it was all pretty easy stuff - that said be warned, most people that got into structural (it's based on results in exams) found maths and mechanics (applied maths) fairly easy. I'd consider maths my easy subject, my "I haven't studied but I know it anyway so I'm fine" type subject. Mainly because you are CONSTANTLY using the maths in OTHER subjects.

pretty much all areas of maths are used but only about 60% of them are actually covered in maths - the rest IS assumed knowledge.

First year there was a LOT on matrices and calculus. This year there was a lot about complex numbers, statistics and laplace transforms (which i guess counts as calculus...)

In terms of what was covered in maths - I'd have easily easily survived it without having leaving cert maths done. The maths lecturers I have had so far have been brilliant at explaining things and make stuff "click" pretty quickly - as long as you do the tutorial sheets.

What I would see as a problem for you would be the other subjects. A good grounding in trig and geometry is essential. You won't be able to do the other subjects - mechanics in particular - without it. Thing is, they don't teach it. After a brief explanation it's just assumed that you know how to resolve vectors into their component forces.

Really it's a case of, they aren't going to sit down and redo the leaving cert course again - they'll cover new stuff. 75% of what was covered in my class this year was new material not covered in first year or the LC. Last year probably 50% was new material not covered in LC. That's kinda why you'll be ok in maths itself but not in other subjects. The maths is new to everyone, but the mechanics is applications of things already known to anyone who has done the leaving cert honours course.