Muscle Fibers

kennyb3

how would i go about best finding out if im a slow or fast twitcher?

Racing Flat

kennyb3 wrote: »

how would i go about best finding out if im a slow or fast twitcher?

Muscle biopsy, probably not too readily available.

More available, compare your short race times to your long race times, maybe using mcmillans runnning calculator or something, a pattern may emerge, e.g.

If your marathon time is 2.55, but your 1 mile time is 5.30 you are probably slow twitch predominant.

If your marathon time is 3.10 and your 1 mile is close to 5.00 you are probably more of a fast twitcher...

Racing Flat

Also, look at your body composition. Slow twitch fibres are skinny, fast twitch fibres are thicker.


Lastly, how do you fare on training sessions? Slow twitchers will come into their own on the longer intervals (800m and up), fast twitchers will come to the fore in the shorter sessions (600m and shorter). Or, the fast twitchers will have a really good last interval; slow twitchers tend to be strong and steady throughout the session but can't lift it too much for the last interval (just my observations).

kennyb3

Racing Flat wrote: »

Muscle biopsy, probably not too readily available.

More available, compare your short race times to your long race times, maybe using mcmillans runnning calculator or something, a pattern may emerge, e.g.

If your marathon time is 2.55, but your 1 mile time is 5.30 you are probably slow twitch predominant.

If your marathon time is 3.10 and your 1 mile is close to 5.00 you are probably more of a fast twitcher...

thanks racing flat. unfortunately im relatively new to running and have only run the one race a 19:40 in the le cheile 5k race this week. before that i would of said i was a slow twitcher and had better endurance than speed (i would of struggled to go sub 4min per km but could keep 4.30 for 8miles easy enough) but now im not so sure. its all a bit confusing. just interested to know re tapering/winding down before races

RealistSpy

Kennyb3@ do you lift weights? If you do find out your 1rm and if you can lift 85% of your 1rm 6+ times then you are slow twitch. Do that for upper body bench press and squat for lower body.

RJC

I found Terget's posting on the Taper thread very interesting also. I found that the last marathon was hard and much slower than it should have been. There were many factors surrounding this but I just wonder if any of them had to do with how I tapered (i.e. am I slow twitch or fast twitch). Currently I am having no problems with recovery from long runs and can keep them going at target marathon pace + 10% for up to 24 miles with full recovery within 36-48 hours - no quad probs or lactate. But the question I have is this: does that mean I am fitter (cardiovascularly and musculature) or I have slow twitch muscles?

Running Bing

What are the implications of being a slow twitch v fast twitch runner?


I have a feeling Im fast twitch....does that have an implications on the sort of training I should be doing and what distances I would be best suited to?


Also am I wrong in saying its not a black and white issue e.g. although I may be predominantly fast twitch I may not be as fast twitch as others?

tergat

RJC wrote: »

I found Terget's posting on the Taper thread very interesting also. I found that the last marathon was hard and much slower than it should have been. There were many factors surrounding this but I just wonder if any of them had to do with how I tapered (i.e. am I slow twitch or fast twitch). Currently I am having no problems with recovery from long runs and can keep them going at target marathon pace + 10% for up to 24 miles with full recovery within 36-48 hours - no quad probs or lactate. But the question I have is this: does that mean I am fitter (cardiovascularly and musculature) or I have slow twitch muscles?

RJC,

The better developed your aerobic system is, the better you will recover in my experience. Those with strong aerobic systems seem to handle races and harder workouts better than those with weaker aerobic systems who really need more time to recover.

Most individuals who recover quickly from long runs as you described would tend to be predominantly of the slow twitch type. Tapering wrong for a marathon can have a huge affect on your finishing time.

Even tapering for cross-country races etc is the same. How many times have you heard guys say they ran great when they 'trained through' races and then dropped weekly mileage for their big race and flopped? They were used to 80 miles a week and dropped to 40 two weeks before the race and lost some of the endurance they worked so hard to gain.

Hope that helps a bit.

Tergat

tergat

Running Bing wrote: »

What are the implications of being a slow twitch v fast twitch runner?


I have a feeling Im fast twitch....does that have an implications on the sort of training I should be doing and what distances I would be best suited to?


Also am I wrong in saying its not a black and white issue e.g. although I may be predominantly fast twitch I may not be as fast twitch as others?

Running Bing,

Post your PB's for all distances from 400m-Marathon if you can and we'll try to help you. Being slow twitch or fast twitch most certainly has implications on your ideal race distance and indeed your training.

Tergat

Running Bing

tergat wrote: »

Running Bing,

Post your PB's for all distances from 400m-Marathon if you can and we'll try to help you. Being slow twitch or fast twitch most certainly has implications on your ideal race distance and indeed your training.

Tergat

My times absolutely plummet as the distances fall:

Marathon Oct 08: 4 hours 15

10k Dec 08: 49.08

5k Jan 09: 21.30

Mile April 09: 5.43

800m April 09: 2.24

Woddle

will try and get in on this
marathon-3:37
10 mile-69:1?
5mile-33:07
5k-19:25
1500-5:15
800m-2:31

I wouldn't have a clue myself, but I would imagine training for a specific distance would impact and might blur the arrow pointing at slow or fast twitch

Running Bing

Woddle wrote: »

will try and get in on this
marathon-3:37
10 mile-69:1?
5mile-33:07
5k-19:25
1500-5:15
800m-2:31

I wouldn't have a clue myself, but I would imagine training for a specific distance would impact and might blur the arrow pointing at slow or fast twitch

Yeah I wouldnt say my times are completely representative. Im training much harder now than I was for the previous races and seeing as I wasnt running long before the marathon it means I have improved a lot over this year.

Still my 800m time predicts a sub 3 hour marathon which I find absolutely ridiculous:D

RJC

tergat wrote: »

RJC,

The better developed your aerobic system is, the better you will recover in my experience. Those with strong aerobic systems seem to handle races and harder workouts better than those with weaker aerobic systems who really need more time to recover.

Most individuals who recover quickly from long runs as you described would tend to be predominantly of the slow twitch type. Tapering wrong for a marathon can have a huge affect on your finishing time.

Even tapering for cross-country races etc is the same. How many times have you heard guys say they ran great when they 'trained through' races and then dropped weekly mileage for their big race and flopped? They were used to 80 miles a week and dropped to 40 two weeks before the race and lost some of the endurance they worked so hard to gain.

Hope that helps a bit.

Tergat

Tergat,

Many thanks and sorry for the misspell on the name. I think I will shorten my taper for Cork this year as an experiment. I don't think I'd be PB competitive anyway as I ran Rotterdam 5 weeks ago. In terms of times I've done:
Marathon - 3:20 - oct 08
10 mile 1:07 - march 09
5k 20:05 - Feb 09 (pb is 19:50 when doing less endurance).

Rotterdam was hell and the taper was 3 weeks. I had a virus but the last 15k were a nightmare - like my first marathon, jogging trough hell!

ecoli

Woddle wrote: »

will try and get in on this
marathon-3:37
10 mile-69:1?
5mile-33:07
5k-19:25
1500-5:15
800m-2:31

I wouldn't have a clue myself, but I would imagine training for a specific distance would impact and might blur the arrow pointing at slow or fast twitch

When you set your 800m was your training marathon specific? given your 1500m to be recent and the type of training you are doin recently i would say you have predominantly fast twitch fibres and as a result would benefit from quality speed sessions however this is my opinion from limited knowledge hopefully other posters may be able to give there insight?

Woddle

ecoli wrote: »

When you set your 800m was your training marathon specific? given your 1500m to be recent and the type of training you are doin recently i would say you have predominantly fast twitch fibres and as a result would benefit from quality speed sessions however this is my opinion from limited knowledge hopefully other posters may be able to give there insight?

Marathon-5/4
No running till 18/4
800m-30/4 (started speed sessions that week)
1500-6/5

I've always been lazy regarding speed work (hence the begining of the bi weekly thread), always happy to plod forever though

ecoli

Well with your speed sessions you doing at the moment you should see an improvement not only in your shorter stuff but also in some of your longer distance running but from what i gather given your relutance to speed sessions in the past your times reflect more natural ability to achieving these times

tergat

Running Bing wrote: »

My times absolutely plummet as the distances fall:

Marathon Oct 08: 4 hours 15

10k Dec 08: 49.08

5k Jan 09: 21.30

Mile April 09: 5.43

800m April 09: 2.24

Running Bing,

From looking at your bests it clearly stands out that your endurance is your weak point. This however may not mean you are a fast twitch type runner, it may just mean that you need to focus more on increasing your aerobic capacity.

I would focus on improving your 5km/10km times and then your longer races will improve in time with the adequate amount of mileage/long runs done of course.

Tergat

Running Bing

tergat wrote: »

Running Bing,

From looking at your bests it clearly stands out that your endurance is your weak point. This however may not mean you are a fast twitch type runner, it may just mean that you need to focus more on increasing your aerobic capacity.

I would focus on improving your 5km/10km times and then your longer races will improve in time with the adequate amount of mileage/long runs done of course.

Tergat

Yeah I definitely feel my endurance is my weak point.

I plan to run some cross country this winter and focus on building the mileage and getting the endurance up.

kennyb3

my biggest problem is that i would like to find out if im a slow or fast twitcher before my first marathon to decide on my type of taper and therefore the only distance i ll prob have raced up to will prob be a half at that stage.

Also i find the good aerobic and endurance side versus whether im a slow or faster or slow twitcher difficult to distinguish. In this case should i just be looking at how quickly i recover from my long runs

kennyb3

tergat wrote: »

Running Bing,

From looking at your bests it clearly stands out that your endurance is your weak point. This however may not mean you are a fast twitch type runner, it may just mean that you need to focus more on increasing your aerobic capacity.

I would focus on improving your 5km/10km times and then your longer races will improve in time with the adequate amount of mileage/long runs done of course.

Tergat

yeah thats it from his times i would of automatiucally thought slow twitcher but not necessarily as you point out? is there any way of telling for certain?

is it a matter of just trying a short and a long taper and seeing what suits?

Running Bing

kennyb3 wrote: »

yeah thats it from his times i would of automatiucally thought slow twitcher but not necessarily as you point out? is there any way of telling for certain?

is it a matter of just trying a short and a long taper and seeing what suits?

What would make you think slow twitch Kennyb?

kennyb3

Running Bing wrote: »

What would make you think slow twitch Kennyb?

sorry i actually meant fast as tergat said due to as you say your times falling as you go further - but again that prob cause you focused more on the shorter stuff. its a difficult business this trying to figure out which you mainly are

Woddle

Doing a little bit of thinking about this and I reckon for a new comer to running, less than 2 years, its impossible to tell as your always going to be improving during those 2 years.
I reckon the runner who is running a while will have a better shot of knowing whether he is fast or slow twitch. I also reckon you should do a graph plotting race performances from 400m to 10 mile, I feel 1/2 marathon to marathon requires too much specific training, I know 400m does aswell but I reckon everyone could safely cover that distance.
To plot the graph you could use a race points calculator on the vertical axis and on the horizontal axis you would have your races from 400 to 10 mile. When you plot them, there will be either a straight line or it will slope down meaning fast twitch or slope up meaning slow twitch.
I'll let you know next year what I am

Woddle

Obviously the higher your points the better your race, mine is a bit skewed but gives you an idea

tergat

kennyb3 wrote: »

yeah thats it from his times i would of automatiucally thought slow twitcher but not necessarily as you point out? is there any way of telling for certain?

is it a matter of just trying a short and a long taper and seeing what suits?

kennyb3,

To find out exactly you could try 2*200m with 3 mins between each flat out after a big warm up. This will reveal your basic speed. I do not think however that you need to worry too much about whether you are a slow twitch or fast twitch runner. Essentially train for your body's natural abilities, foremost, and train for the event secondarily. If you like running miles, long runs etc and your body recovers well train this way. If you like faster training and race well off this follow that path.

If you are fast twitch fiber type of guy you can change the characteristics of these to an extent. Re fibre types an adult doesn't really have changes in muscle fiber type, if motor-neural control is the measure. It is, however, possible to change characteristics of fibers; to an extent. Fast Twitch A fibers are capable of going from modestly aerobic in capacity to very, very aerobic in capacity.


For slow twitch runners who have no basic speed the following statement is very true. You can NOT make a plow horse into a thoroughbreed and vice versa. You can try all you want to improve a plow horse's time for the mile by having him do 2-4 furlong windsprints but it won't do much good. He'll run a faster mile by running training reps of 5-6 furlongs at 75% speed. Make sense?


I think people over complicate training etc keep it simple and follow these basic guidelines:

1) Run a lot! Volume done just below your personal limit, week after week is gold!

2) Vary your training intensity (some easy paced, some moderate, and some faster). A mix of about 75% easy, 15-20% moderate, and about 5-10% faster is about right for the vast majority of people running 5k races or longer.

3) Run hills in training 2 times per week. Specific leg strength is vital to running success. The stronger your legs are the more training you can do without breaking down. The more training you can do without breaking down the better your race performances will be, on average.

4) Don't overthink. Set up a simple plan and stick to it. Stop worrying about all the x and y parts of training and just execute a well designed weekly schedule over and over and over.

A weekly that includes 1 CV interval session (5km pace per km + 10 secs), 1 tempo over hills or tempo plus hills, and a long run or a 2 runs of about 45-60 minutes with some of it moderate, plus 2 strider sesisons per week (5-10 x 100m at 5k, gradually increasing the speed as you legs warm up, and never straining), plus plenty of easy distance work is going to place 95% of the runners at 95% of their peak fitness - or better.

5) Race intelligently. That means don't go out too fast! Use self-control and know your current limits. Stay under your limits early in the race and you will run a solid race overall. Patience is virutue!

6) Take care of the details. Sleep enough, eat wisely, hydrate often, and prevent or take care of injuries before they side-line you. Stay away from people who are sick, and wash your hands with soap and water often.

7) Always remember that you must keep the ball rolling. Momentum is the backbone of progression!

Tergat

kennyb3

Thanks a million, esp the key points above. already copied and saved!. you ve prob been asked this before but waht is your background?

Woddle

tergat wrote: »

kennyb3,

To find out exactly you could try 2*200m with 3 mins between each flat out after a big warm up. This will reveal your basic speed. I do not think however that you need to worry too much about whether you are a slow twitch or fast twitch runner. Essentially train for your body's natural abilities, foremost, and train for the event secondarily. If you like running miles, long runs etc and your body recovers well train this way. If you like faster training and race well off this follow that path.

If you are fast twitch fiber type of guy you can change the characteristics of these to an extent. Re fibre types an adult doesn't really have changes in muscle fiber type, if motor-neural control is the measure. It is, however, possible to change characteristics of fibers; to an extent. Fast Twitch A fibers are capable of going from modestly aerobic in capacity to very, very aerobic in capacity.


For slow twitch runners who have no basic speed the following statement is very true. You can NOT make a plow horse into a thoroughbreed and vice versa. You can try all you want to improve a plow horse's time for the mile by having him do 2-4 furlong windsprints but it won't do much good. He'll run a faster mile by running training reps of 5-6 furlongs at 75% speed. Make sense?


I think people over complicate training etc keep it simple and follow these basic guidelines:

1) Run a lot! Volume done just below your personal limit, week after week is gold!

2) Vary your training intensity (some easy paced, some moderate, and some faster). A mix of about 75% easy, 15-20% moderate, and about 5-10% faster is about right for the vast majority of people running 5k races or longer.

3) Run hills in training 2 times per week. Specific leg strength is vital to running success. The stronger your legs are the more training you can do without breaking down. The more training you can do without breaking down the better your race performances will be, on average.

4) Don't overthink. Set up a simple plan and stick to it. Stop worrying about all the x and y parts of training and just execute a well designed weekly schedule over and over and over.

A weekly that includes 1 CV interval session (5km pace per km + 10 secs), 1 tempo over hills or tempo plus hills, and a long run or a 2 runs of about 45-60 minutes with some of it moderate, plus 2 strider sesisons per week (5-10 x 100m at 5k, gradually increasing the speed as you legs warm up, and never straining), plus plenty of easy distance work is going to place 95% of the runners at 95% of their peak fitness - or better.

5) Race intelligently. That means don't go out too fast! Use self-control and know your current limits. Stay under your limits early in the race and you will run a solid race overall. Patience is virutue!

6) Take care of the details. Sleep enough, eat wisely, hydrate often, and prevent or take care of injuries before they side-line you. Stay away from people who are sick, and wash your hands with soap and water often.

7) Always remember that you must keep the ball rolling. Momentum is the backbone of progression!

Tergat

Fantastic advice, especially the don't worry about x & Y, which I'm guilty of, 280 pages of Salazars book summed up in one post be Tergat

RJC

This is the sort of solid advice I have been trawling through books for over the last 3 years. I have arrived at something similar through trial and error (a lot of error!!!) and I have found a balance of 5-6 sessions per week made up of 1 hills (8 miles), 1 recovery (6miles), 1 tempo (4 miles) 1 marathon pace (8 miles) and one LSR (12 - 24 miles depending on the schedule). More than this and I break down before the race, less and I break down in the race.

tergat

kennyb3 wrote: »

Thanks a million, esp the key points above. already copied and saved!. you ve prob been asked this before but waht is your background?

kennyb3,

No problem I hope the information helps. My backround is simple:
-I have been involved in athletics since the age of 12, average national level runner and started coaching at 20, currently approaching the 30 barrier (:
-Currently coach 5 Irish Junior & 1 u23 International distance runners, some seniors plus a great bunch of younger athletes 13-18 years old, a pleasure to work with and the only thing that keeps me going through the bad times in this sport.
-Love the sport and love continuing to gain more knowledge and experience which all coaches should never forget, in my opinion. I have picked the brains of many coaches both here and abroad at meets which has helped.

Tergat

thirtyfoot

tergat wrote: »

I think people over complicate training etc keep it simple and follow these basic guidelines:

1) Run a lot! Volume done just below your personal limit, week after week is gold!

2) Vary your training intensity (some easy paced, some moderate, and some faster). A mix of about 75% easy, 15-20% moderate, and about 5-10% faster is about right for the vast majority of people running 5k races or longer.

3) Run hills in training 2 times per week. Specific leg strength is vital to running success. The stronger your legs are the more training you can do without breaking down. The more training you can do without breaking down the better your race performances will be, on average.

4) Don't overthink. Set up a simple plan and stick to it. Stop worrying about all the x and y parts of training and just execute a well designed weekly schedule over and over and over.

A weekly that includes 1 CV interval session (5km pace per km + 10 secs), 1 tempo over hills or tempo plus hills, and a long run or a 2 runs of about 45-60 minutes with some of it moderate, plus 2 strider sesisons per week (5-10 x 100m at 5k, gradually increasing the speed as you legs warm up, and never straining), plus plenty of easy distance work is going to place 95% of the runners at 95% of their peak fitness - or better.

5) Race intelligently. That means don't go out too fast! Use self-control and know your current limits. Stay under your limits early in the race and you will run a solid race overall. Patience is virutue!

6) Take care of the details. Sleep enough, eat wisely, hydrate often, and prevent or take care of injuries before they side-line you. Stay away from people who are sick, and wash your hands with soap and water often.

7) Always remember that you must keep the ball rolling. Momentum is the backbone of progression!

Tergat

Great advice! I train and coach at a very different discipline but the same framework can be used to a certain extent. I try follow simplicity and consistency. I read before that simplicity yields complexity and I think thats true. When you try to complicate things, you can get bogged down but if you keep things simple you will have a pretty rounded and complex athlete over time.

There is no magic formula that can beat hard work and common sense.

kennyb3

RJC wrote: »

More than this and I break down before the race, less and I break down in the race.

:pac::pac::pac: brilliant

kennyb3

tergat wrote: »

kennyb3,

No problem I hope the information helps. My backround is simple:
-I have been involved in athletics since the age of 12, average national level runner and started coaching at 20, currently approaching the 30 barrier (:
-Currently coach 5 Irish Junior & 1 u23 International distance runners, some seniors plus a great bunch of younger athletes 13-18 years old, a pleasure to work with and the only thing that keeps me going through the bad times in this sport.
-Love the sport and love continuing to gain more knowledge and experience which all coaches should never forget, in my opinion. I have picked the brains of many coaches both here and abroad at meets which has helped.

Tergat

Thanks a million, i will pick your brains in future so. good to have someone with such a background on boards and giving advice

cfitz

Tergat,

Quick question amount my running if you don't mind:

400m PB of 58.9 (raced twice ever)
800m PB of 2:14 (race rarely maybe once a year)
1500m PB of 4:21 (race more often, maybe twice or 3 times per year)

As more of cross-country runner, I'm not overly concerned about my 400/800 times, but the 800m PB strikes me as being out of kilter. Do you think so? If so, can you suggest any possible reasons?

Thanks

tergat

Tingle wrote: »

Great advice! I train and coach at a very different discipline but the same framework can be used to a certain extent. I try follow simplicity and consistency. I read before that simplicity yields complexity and I think thats true. When you try to complicate things, you can get bogged down but if you keep things simple you will have a pretty rounded and complex athlete over time.

There is no magic formula that can beat hard work and common sense.

Tingle,

I couldnt agree more, well said.

Tergat

tergat

cfitz wrote: »

Tergat,

Quick question amount my running if you don't mind:

400m PB of 58.9 (raced twice ever)
800m PB of 2:14 (race rarely maybe once a year)
1500m PB of 4:21 (race more often, maybe twice or 3 times per year)

As more of cross-country runner, I'm not overly concerned about my 400/800 times, but the 800m PB strikes me as being out of kilter. Do you think so? If so, can you suggest any possible reasons?

Thanks

cfitz,

Lets look at each PB and break it down per 400m roughly:
- 400m: 59
- 800m: 67
- 1500m: 69.5

With guys with very strong endurance you would see roughly a 4 sec differential between 800m & 1500m times. Yours is 2.5 secs, which says to me that 2.14 does not reflect your true ability for that distance. I have no doubt with some training and a few races you could run in 2.06-2.10 range which would match up with your 1500m time also.

I am assuming that being more of a 'cross-country' type athlete has affected your 800m time plus the fact that you rarely race over this distance. With a few judiciously spaced out faster workouts, while maintaining your endurance, I have no doubt you could go faster.

Tergat