Training times versus race time ?

Seres

i am hoping someone here might be able to give some sort of explanation to the following :
my most recent race was 10k which i ran at around 6.35min/mile pace , flat course
did tempo run today 4 miles @ av 7min/mile pace , it was a 1400m loop that i did around 41/2 times , the loop also has a decent enough hill , however i was really struggling to keep this pace , what iwant to know basically is how could i run 6.25miles @ 6.35min/mile pace and not feel so bad but struggle to run 4miles at 7min/mile pace ?
could the hill which i ran 5 times and the fact that i train alone make that much of a difference ?

theflash800

its because u raced the 10k
and u did your tempo running in training.
its like asking how come guys can break 4mins for the mile in a race and not in training?
or how come people can run sub 60 or sub 55 secs in an 800m race and still do a second lap at the same pace... and yet in training they wouldnt go near this pace
its because the thrill of racing and the adreneline that makes the difference.
but im sure the hill and the lack of training partners also had an impact on your tempo run too though

Woddle

Hi Seres I'm assuming you did the tempo run on your own, if so, it can be very hard to push yourself on your own, I can suffer from this a little bit, especially with intervals.
Also race day adrenaline is priceless and it helps get you in the zone. I wouldn't be too bothered about it and tempo runs are tough (10 mile pace) and maybe you still had a bit of tirdness in your legs from the race.

silverside

what woddle said

i run my tempo runs at 10k pace + 20 sec /mile (around 6:50), the idea of tempo runs is to do them at (or v slightly faster than) your lactate threshold so that you improve your lactate threshold gradually over time; they are tough.

sounds like your running your tempo runs too fast, try doing separate speed sessions at (or faster than) race pace...

Seres

thanks guys just three more questions
if i am way off pace for the tempo runs cause i cant push myself are they really of much benefit to me?
how am i to know what pace i can run in a race if my tempo runs are way off target?
is racing frequently important and if so how often should you try and race ?

Woddle

Seres wrote: »

thanks guys just three more questions
if i am way off pace for the tempo runs cause i cant push myself are they really of much benefit to me?
how am i to know what pace i can run in a race if my tempo runs are way off target?
is racing frequently important and if so how often should you try and race ?

There of a huge benefit especially for racing 10k and up and probably the most important session of the week?

Don't get too bogged down on knowing what pace to run your race, just run it, which is what you did for your 10k and I think that went pretty well for you

I got a small slap on the wrist for racing too much as you need so many days recovery etc so you can't get all the desired sessions in for your goal race. So I've been guilty of racing too much and am going to stop but its just so addictive.

silverside

yes they are good even if you're not going at "formula" pace, thats just a guideline...

ease off a little bit , try doing 20 mins at whatever constant pace you can - maybe an mp3 player will help , do on a flat loop - think of it as a 1 x 20 minute interval - 4 miles sounds too long for tempo run without break

if you are generally tired / demotivated / have just raced then take a few days off / or just easy runs

maybe race flat-out every 2-3 weeks ?

again just what i've picked up, have no formal coaching knowledge

Woddle

silverside wrote: »

maybe an mp3 player will help

I tend to put on some fast stuff for this and it does help, you can't beat a bit of foo fighters and kings of leon

Seres

silverside wrote: »

what woddle said

i run my tempo runs at 10k pace + 20 sec /mile (around 6:50), the idea of tempo runs is to do them at (or v slightly faster than) your lactate threshold so that you improve your lactate threshold gradually over time; they are tough.

sounds like your running your tempo runs too fast, try doing separate speed sessions at (or faster than) race pace...

how do you figure i am running them to fast if my pace fro the last 10k i did was around 6.35min/mile pace and i ran my tempo run today at 7 min/mile pace , which is 25sec slower per mile , that would make my pace for the tempo run right ?

thirtyfoot

theflash800 wrote: »

its because u raced the 10k
and u did your tempo running in training.
its like asking how come guys can break 4mins for the mile in a race and not in training?
or how come people can run sub 60 or sub 55 secs in an 800m race and still do a second lap at the same pace... and yet in training they wouldnt go near this pace
its because the thrill of racing and the adreneline that makes the difference.
but im sure the hill and the lack of training partners also had an impact on your tempo run too though

Yep, I'd have to agree with this. Its very simple. You'd also be worried if you weren't able to match your race times with your training times. No matter how you try you just can't simulate the race experience in training 100% (and probably shouldn't)

silverside

Seres wrote: »

how do you figure i am running them to fast if my pace fro the last 10k i did was around 6.35min/mile pace and i ran my tempo run today at 7 min/mile pace , which is 25sec slower per mile , that would make my pace for the tempo run right ?

yeah you're right, i misread your post - sorry

although 4 miles / 30 minutes is a LOONG tempo run

Sosa

Hey Seres,
I am new to all this tempo run / marathon paced runs myself and this is what i think.

Your tempo runs of 7 min miles are fine considering your 10k pace is 6:35 ...but dont restrict yourself to 7:00 pace...if you feel good,knock a few seconds per mile of it

As for struggling on your tempos,perectly normal as far as i am concerned.
My legs were like jelly after the last two tempos i did (4m @ 6:30 Pace)
but yet my race times are much better ....its just the whole race scenario...number pinned onto your shirt,thrill of competing,people in front of you that you try to catch,people lining the streets cheering you ...it just drives you on

If you keep doing the tempos every week,your times will get better...no doubt about it...

Seres

silverside wrote: »

yeah you're right, i misread your post - sorry

although 4 miles / 30 minutes is a LOONG tempo run

ya you are probably right on that one , maybe i should split it up into
2*2miles or 20min fast

Seres

Sosa wrote: »

Hey Seres,
I am new to all this tempo run / marathon paced runs myself and this is what i think.

Your tempo runs of 7 min miles are fine considering your 10k pace is 6:35 ...but dont restrict yourself to 7:00 pace...if you feel good,knock a few seconds per mile of it

As for struggling on your tempos,perectly normal as far as i am concerned.
My legs were like jelly after the last two tempos i did (4m @ 6:30 Pace)
but yet my race times are much better ....its just the whole race scenario...number pinned onto your shirt,thrill of competing,people in front of you that you try to catch,people lining the streets cheering you ...it just drives you on

If you keep doing the tempos every week,your times will get better...no doubt about it...

thanks sosa , i do one every week and there the most hated/hardest session for me , i think maybe because before i started a sort of training program every day was a tempo run and i really grew to hate them
i have to say the posts regards this thread are reassuring , i :)find the boards really good for this sort of advice , thanks all

shels4ever

Yep I'd agree its not possible to match your race time in tempo runs, With a race you would have rested etc prior where are your tempos is one of your key session and you would have been training that week.
I was finding it hard to run a 3k @ 7:40 pace but went out and ran 4 mile XC race in jsut over 28 mins..
Nice running in the 10k by the way

mrak

For me the diff it's more how long I can hold the pace. The race-day rush makes me able to hold a pace for about twice as long as I can do in training.

I find if I can do about 1/3 to 1/2 the race distance at target race pace in training then I will be there or thereabouts for the race. So if targeting a 10k in a certain time then I sometimes try to run a hard tempo with a 5k section at the 10k race pace a week or 2 before it and this lets me know if I am being realistic.

Same with a marathon - you will need to be able to run at least 10 miles in training (not in a race) at your target marathon pace or you are being too ambitious in your goal time. These testers are with similar gear to what you wear in races (shoes, etc).

That's just a "me" thing - don't have any theory behind it.

dna_leri

Seres wrote: »

ya you are probably right on that one , maybe i should split it up into
2*2miles or 20min fast

I would start with a 15-20 min tempo - or whatever you can currently sustain and build it up from there, also factor in 5, 10 or 15 secs extra per mile/lap for the effect of hills.

This is what Greg McMilllan says about Tempo runs:

Tempo runs are slightly more intense than steady-state runs and are designed to increase your stamina. As the name suggests, you really improve your running tempo or rhythm with these workouts. They last between 15 and 30 minutes and are run between your 12K and half-marathon race pace. Tempo runs are meant to be "comfortably hard" so don't push the pace. Your heart rate will likely be between 85 and 90% of max.