Beginners problem with bankroll

nisio123

Hi all,
Im wondering if anyone had the same problem as me when they started playing online poker.
I've built up a 1000$ + bank about three times (from very little) over the past few months and promptly lost it all. Last time was a week ago when party poker gave me 100$ for free for refering someone, within 4 days i was up to 1100, then down to 20, back up to 550, down to nothing and then i won a tournament, back up to 1300, lost a third and cashed out the rest (check in the post)
I'm wondering if its common when you start, or is it more to do with personality, also id just like any thoughts, or other peoples experiences when they started playing online.

A - Decided they had no discipline and shouldnt be playing poker
B - Figured out a clever way not to go crazy and slowly built it up more
C - Wich is what i think im going to have to do is, Cash almost everything as soon as im over a 1000 and start from scratch.

PCPhoto

correct me if I'm wrong but the idea of a bankroll is that you build up a bankroll and use that money to gamble (ie. you remove your original deposit + a bit extra) .... then every time you win you take the amount you win -retaining your bankroll !!!

hint: Stop loosing !!!

if you have reached a bankroll amount - stop maybe take a 10-20min break...or a day or two, then return to use that money.

Personally I use a system of losses: if I win I continue playing - if I loose two consecutive hands I stop for a while (could be a couple of mins, couple of hours or a day or so)....works for me (I'm down about 10K :P .... was down more before I started this method - it stops me from rolling back down after I gain some money)

flushje

When your bankroll is at $1000 / $1100, what games were you playing? What was the buy ins?

dK1NG

Generally you should be aiming for at least 20 buy-ins (some would say 30 even) for whatever limit you're playing.

So, say at 100nl you should have a BR of 2000 (minimum!). Have a look at the sticky thread about BR management, its vital to stop going busto and having to start over from scratch.

nisio123

It wouldnt be in their interest but its just what i need, instead of a time based self exclusion, a money based one, so if for instance i got up to a 1000, then lost more than 50 in an hour it would exclude me for an hour to cool down, think about something else.
Or software that made you sit out if you did something really stupid. (something youd never normally do but because you have "all" these wins you feel you can afford to chase a draw etc..)
Its probably do-able too. If they can make programs that tell you other peoples flaws they could make one that sees yours, it could be called "The Sergeant" and anytime you make a stupid move it freezes your computer and orders you to do twenty push ups.
Anyway for now sitting out a few hands seems like a good idea.
Thanks for your thoughts.

nisio123

dK1NG wrote: »

Generally you should be aiming for at least 20 buy-ins (some would say 30 even) for whatever limit you're playing.

So, say at 100nl you should have a BR of 2000 (minimum!). Have a look at the sticky thread about BR management, its vital to stop going busto and having to start over from scratch.

I think that when i have way more than what i started with i feel like a kid in a sweet shop with a tenner. My perception of the situation changes.
Hopefully next time i build up to a decent amount it will feel normal.
Another interesting thing is writting all this down is making me see things a bit clearer. Maybe i should keep some kind of poker diary. Thanks guys

nisio123

flushje wrote: »

When your bankroll is at $1000 / $1100, what games were you playing? What was the buy ins?

another good point, the lower stake games for some reason didnt seem so appealling so i moved out of my depth.
I think a big mistake i see now, is getting lucky when i first moved up to 50/1$
for a bit, thinking i was playing great and then when i started loosing just assuming i was unlucky. Getting greedy seems to be a deadly bankroll sin.

flushje

If you have $1000 on FT I recommend playing 10c / 25c cash. Play a couple of tables at a time so you dont get bored / tilty. You'll have 40 buy - ins at this level which is just enough. 20 BI is never enough imo, thats speaking from a wealth of experience at going busto with 20 BI. Having a minimum of 40 Buy-ins allows you to cope with variance, which will hit you at some stage.

White Knight

nisio123 wrote: »

It wouldnt be in their interest but its just what i need, instead of a time based self exclusion, a money based one, so if for instance i got up to a 1000, then lost more than 50 in an hour it would exclude me for an hour to cool down, think about something else.
Or software that made you sit out if you did something really stupid. (something youd never normally do but because you have "all" these wins you feel you can afford to chase a draw etc..)
Its probably do-able too. If they can make programs that tell you other peoples flaws they could make one that sees yours, it could be called "The Sergeant" and anytime you make a stupid move it freezes your computer and orders you to do twenty push ups.
Anyway for now sitting out a few hands seems like a good idea.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Although this type of thing will help some players, it is not worth the poker sites time and money to do it. Firstly it limits the time on the table that a player can spend on rake/reg fees. Secondly it wil only suit a small sample of a sites player base to use a feature like this - so unless it was a stand alone large site such as Stars or Tilt there is really little chance of the site bothering to invest in it.

Grafter

If you have an account with an online wallet such as Neteller, then you can keep most of your bankroll in there and only have a small amount in any one poker room.

Of course this only works if you can discipline yourself to stop playing for the day/night if you busto the poker account.

For example, starting with $100 in your poker account, every time you get it up to $200, withdraw $100 to your wallet.

Once you've got a decent amount in the wallet, then withdraw $200 from poker every time you get up to $400.

If you don't have enough willpower for this, then the (expensive) alternative is to get someone to do it for you. Blonde poker (and others) have staking systems where they put a certain amount of money into your account each day and you can't lose any more. They then sweep all your winnings out so you start at the start next day again.

nisio123

cool ! that sounds like exactly what i need ! Thanks a million, ill check it out now. Any other sites do the same ?

Macspower

nisio123 wrote: »

cool ! that sounds like exactly what i need ! Thanks a million, ill check it out now. Any other sites do the same ?

It also ahs some serious disadvantages as well... be carefull

what you really need to do is to grasp the basic point of bankroll management.. always keeping 20+ buy ins is the way to go and reduce levels if you loose and increase when you get enough for the next level..

that way you should never go busto.. well wont say never but for a reasonable player it is the way to go

shano_88

i started off the same as you and ran up a bankroll pretty quick just running hot. I lost half of it and now after reading the forums and a bit of common sense i practise descent bankroll management. It can get really frustrating when you just want to buy into a 1/2 game and have a laugh but if youwant to build a bankroll 30-50 buy ins is the best way to do it..........

Macspower

I really think 30-50 is a little too nitty... no harm in taking a 2 buy in shot at 20 but 25 is more comfortable

mdwexford

Yeah i agree with Macs, you'll never move up levels if you wait till you have 40 buyins for the next level. Start taking shots at the next level as early as you feel comfortable with once you have about 30-35 buyins for your current stakes.

DeadMoney

mdwexford wrote: »

Yeah i agree with Macs, you'll never move up levels if you wait till you have 40 buyins for the next level. Start taking shots at the next level as early as you feel comfortable with once you have about 30-35 buyins for your current stakes.

I think 40 is definitely a bit nitty but I definitely agree than 20 is too little. For taking shots 20 is sometimes fine but I prefer closer to 25 so you can have a better shot and not just lose 2 or 3 buy in's before having to move back down. It's mostly psychological I guess. OP, if you are ruuning up your small deposits by playing under rolled, you are probably just running well. I would stick within my bankroll requirements if I were you and build confidence as well as your bankroll.
GL

coillcam

DeadMoney wrote: »

I think 40 is definitely a bit nitty but I definitely agree than 20 is too little. For taking shots 20 is sometimes fine but I prefer closer to 25 so you can have a better shot and not just lose 2 or 3 buy in's before having to move back down. It's mostly psychological I guess. OP, if you are ruuning up your small deposits by playing under rolled, you are probably just running well. I would stick within my bankroll requirements if I were you and build confidence as well as your bankroll.
GL

It depends on the levels also. Obviously if you are play 25nl or 50nl the games are drastically easier than 400nl/600nl. Then the aggressive nature of the higher limit games will mean you will have greater variance too. You would need more BI's then to allow for downswings too.

You will get away with 20-25 BI's for 20nl/50nl no problem, I would also suggest that you go and find a good bonus/rakeback deal if you are going to be playing a lot. My fallback was that if I had 19BI's or less I'd drop a level and grind back up a few more BI's and then move back up accordingly.

bp_me

Having not tried these myself I can't comment, but there are some interesting tips for managing your bankroll here:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/pro-tip/ChrisFerguson/100

DeadMoney

coillcam wrote: »

It depends on the levels also. Obviously if you are play 25nl or 50nl the games are drastically easier than 400nl/600nl. Then the aggressive nature of the higher limit games will mean you will have greater variance too. You would need more BI's then to allow for downswings too.

You will get away with 20-25 BI's for 20nl/50nl no problem, I would also suggest that you go and find a good bonus/rakeback deal if you are going to be playing a lot. My fallback was that if I had 19BI's or less I'd drop a level and grind back up a few more BI's and then move back up accordingly.

Yeah I think 20+ buy in's fine and all for <100nl but regardless of the soft nature of these games, it is not uncommon to have 10 buy in swings due to running bad. As for rakeback, if you can get it on full tilt do, as this and pokerstars will be the best sites for small stakes cash games i.e. huge player pool!!
I wouldn't pay too much attention to rake back when playing small stakes but if you can get it go ahead. Also, bonus whoring a great idea if there are any good ones out there that clear well. Ladbrokes had a great one for $500 which cleared really easy but I am not sure if it is still going.

ianmc38

I would definitely shot take at lower levels with 20-25 buyins. If you are beating small stakes comfortably, then you should be able to beat .25/.50 too. Give yourself a 2 or 3 buyin shot at the next level, play fewer tables and get accustomed to playing in a higher stakes games. Many people have a mental block when they move up to higher levels as they assume that they'll be playing a different game, but this is not the case at lower levels.

nisio123

just reading the chris fergusson tips now. He mentions talking to people who work a 100 into a thousand and loose it all, does just seem to boil down to discipline, if your loosing drop down a level, stop assuming its going to be boring to go lower and so on.. Im glad im not alone with this problem tho, however i think the best for me is whenever i get a decent amount im going to cash out and start low again, its just too hard to play 10/25 cents (the level i know where i stand most off the time) when you have a thousand just sitting there. Until im confortable with having a big bankroll im going to stick to a little one.

I just seem to play better when i have little to loose but still know its going to be a while before i can play again if i loose it all (bank drafts taking 5 days to clear) ie not too tight, not too loose.

I can also see a pattern where i play good up till 300$ then hover around there for a bit, get lucky or hit a good streak, get up to 800/1000$ loose perspective, loose a few full buy ins, start feeling stupid about
try to get back up to a 1000 in a hurry, loose more in the process.

So psychologically i feel much more comfortable with little, and with time a little might start meaning 500$ and then one day 1000 will seem normal, and then i can start taking out a hundred a week (my goal)

Just had a few days break from it and im going to put 50 on tonight and see where i am in a week

fatguy

Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but:

Lose = not win
Loose = not tight.

jamser58

fatguy wrote: »

Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but:

Lose = not win
Loose = not tight.

Lose players always loose in the end don`t they?

bingobars

OPs problems seem perfectly fine. Ive run a $200 BR to $1500 a few times and back again. My graph is almost always going up in the grand scheme of things. Im a MTT player and keep about 25/35 buy ins most of the time. The down swings still hurt a bunch but I jus take a few days/weeks out and start all over again. The best way to look at it is nobody keeps winning at a consistent rate, its have you deal with the tough times that will define your longer term results.

Its poker afterall, if you won at a consistent rate just and the guys who lose do so at a consisent rate then they would stop depositing. Even limit player have swings. Dont let them get to you. I would advise dropping stakes rather than running your roll to the ground. I havent been busto in the real sense of the word but I have many times been on a short roll. I keep myself from depositing at the time I probably shouldnt.

Chucky the tree

bingobars wrote: »

OPs problems seem perfectly fine. Ive run a $200 BR to $1500 a few times and back again. My graph is almost always going up in the grand scheme of things. Im a MTT player and keep about 25/35 buy ins most of the time. The down swings still hurt a bunch but I jus take a few days/weeks out and start all over again. The best way to look at it is nobody keeps winning at a consistent rate, its have you deal with the tough times that will define your longer term results.

Its poker afterall, if you won at a consistent rate just and the guys who lose do so at a consisent rate then they would stop depositing. Even limit player have swings. Dont let them get to you. I would advise dropping stakes rather than running your roll to the ground. I havent been busto in the real sense of the word but I have many times been on a short roll. I keep myself from depositing at the time I probably shouldnt.

25-35 buy-ins is no where near enough for MTT's, you should be looking at 100+. As for OP's problem being perfectly fine? Anyone who runs $200 up to $1100 and drops back down to $200 cleary has some massive flaws.

Tony_Montana

I think most ppl who start off online had a start like this. Me personally i went from 10 dollars to 5k to busto in no time. Bank roll management is very important but you got to learn from your mistakes. ie. think how did i win that much/lose that much and think how you can play comfortably online within damaging your bankroll if you have an off day

Onsberg

One rule to live by is that your bankroll dictates your limit. Not the other way around. You might have the skill to beat a certain limit, but not the bankroll to support that. You need to play at the limit your bankroll dictates.

What should your BR dictate?

You need to have at least x times the max buy-in to play at a certain limit. The x differs from how riskadverse you are. Some (very risk-prone) say 20 buy-ins. Others say more. I believe the norm is 40 BIs. You can go higher if you want. I suggest you use a 20/40 rule.

Moving up and down in limit

Let the BR dictate the limit you play. With a BR of $1000 and a 20/40 BI rule you would start playing NL25. If you drop below 20 BIs($500) you go down to NL10. When you reach 40 BIs of the next limit you move up. So when your BR reaches $2000 you go to NL50. You can go up a bit earlier if you already feel comfortable on that limit, but be prepared to move down if your BR drops to less than 20 BIs on that limit.

What usually busts people are the fact that they are not able to go down in limits when the BR dictates it. That is the most important thing of bankroll management.

Session win/loss goals

Another good thing to work out is a win/loss goal for any session you play. How much are you willing to lose before stopping your session? Getting stuck in a session will for most people have a negative effect on their play. By setting a loss goal you will force yourself to take a break from the game when you are not playing well/losing.

A good loss goal is 5 buy-ins. If at some point during a session you are down by 5 BIs stop playing and take a break. Either for a few hours or even days if needed (this is much more a mental game issue). Use the time to analyze your play and look for improvements. If your BR is now less than the 20 BIs for the limit you are currently playing, you should move down.

Some also work with win goals. This is to prevent losing all the winnings of a session. We all know of situations where everything was working perfectly and we were lulled into a false sense of security all and of a sudden lost all the winnings of the day. The win goal should be higher than the loss goal. I suggest having a win goal of 10 BIs.

Finances

So now there are rules for how to manage the overall BR when it comes to choosing the limits and rules for sessions so you don't go broke quickly.

Last but not least is the finance management. A golden rule is to keep your BR seperated from other finances. Don't use your BR to pay for other expences while building it. When you are comfortable at playing a certain limit and don't want to move up in limit, then start withdrawing from your BR, but keep in mind you still need to play by the 20/40 rule.

That was my 2 cent and to be honest it's mostly a reiteration of what most BR management guides say anyway.