So if God...........

tolteq

created the world. then who created god?

Joe1919

According to Eriugena, God created himself.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=hUOGlDTtqroC&pg=PA403&lpg=PA403&dq=eriugena+god+self+created&source=bl&ots=cgik10MZSv&sig=W5qF0xOKzCPPcii-1AIHGth9YH8&hl=en&ei=eoYESvbsL9XOjAeDsriVCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9

Joycey

tolteq wrote: »

created the world. then who created god?

I did

O'Coonassa

tolteq wrote: »

created the world. then who created god?

It is Unbegotten, the Primal Ground, The Source.

Respect what It has done. Marvellous work

nobodythere

............what the hell is god?

O'Coonassa

grasshopa wrote: »

............what the hell is god?

It is.

the roo

so if god .....CARED

moviesrme

Peole retorting with one liners because it's of course unanswerable.

Its an intriguing thought you effectively pose though viz. no matter how intelligent you are etc Einstein or whatever you might eventually describe evenything from the big bang or equivalent newer theory of hte start of the universe but you will always be stuck with what created that and so on. And I think this applies no matter how sophisticated the argument ie. It must have come from nothing eventually.
Religion as you allude is no answer either as as you say "who created God?"

I have mused before to myself that theer is no (very little) true undersanding in the world; it;s all just observation leading to fundamental rules described leading to manipulation and the use by humans for their benefit. But what actually causes A to lead to B remains a mystery.
Creationists say God created man QED Dawkins goes to great pains to argue evolution describes ow man arises from that which existed after the big bang so you might say a mechanical system produces man from the basic of basic matter according to Dawkins therefore that original matter is as wonderful as man but he has nothing to say re were that original matter came form. He does of course know this and says its an emergent situation and science will prevail eventually and that's fine.

The whole thing is so unsatisfyinh though.

Actually I just had another thought. My paragraph above states there is no understanding just observation the implication being we have to dig deeper; steup up to the plate ; max the envelope to get the real deal but there can be no real deal???! No matter how fundamentally you describe anything there will always be "What causes that?" Jesus maybe this is why scientists cant find the fundamental units of matter they just get smaller things; quarks, bosons etc. I gotta call CERN and tell them to quit!

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Turtles all the way down ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

AlkalineAcid

If God was created by something then what created that which created God?

IrishSerf

Probably one of the turtles...but who created the turtles?

AlkalineAcid

IrishSerf wrote: »

Probably one of the turtles...but who created the turtles?

An infinite number of turtles!

nyarlothothep

God or Yahweh had a father named El, before El there was only El. He also has a brother named Baal, but in the struggle for power Baal lost.

Serious example which sums up my thoughts on this, I believe the universe may have been created through a self generating loop type thing. For example when Skynet sends a terminator back into the past it causes its own existence in the future.

garrincha62

nyarlothothep wrote: »

God or Yahweh had a father named El, before El there was only El. He also has a brother named Baal, but in the struggle for power Baal lost.

Serious example which sums up my thoughts on this, I believe the universe may have been created through a self generating loop type thing. For example when Skynet sends a terminator back into the past it causes its own existence in the future.

Have we learned nothing? It was Bill Cosby's great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great Grandfather's mate Cliff.

TiwstaSista

If someone created GOD then there will be a greater GOD. Nobody created him
because he is the only creator and GOD and that is why we use the word "GOD" not "GODS".

nobodythere

TiwstaSista wrote: »

If someone created GOD then there will be a greater GOD. Nobody created him
because he is the only creator and GOD and that is why we use the word "GOD" not "GODS".

Elohim is plural

Húrin

God must be the first cause or else he is not God.

thebouldwhacker

tolteq wrote: »

so if god created the world. then who created god?

'god'= physics ->physics created the world (lets not be local here) and everything else ->Man created god as man didnt know about physics-> physics = god.

stevej

God is the only necessary being - we are all contingent. We are contingent on our parents having created us etc., just as they are on their parents etc........

You can keep going back but not to an infinite regress......it must start somewhere.

If we see a ball rolling down the road, something had to start that - it can't happen by itself, and it's the same with creation. Nothing can appear from nothing. Something must have started the chain, and that something has to be a necessary being that can't have been created itself.

As someone already said, if we say a big bang started everything, then where did the big bang come from? What caused that? Everything must have a cause in order to realise an effect.

5318008!

IrishSerf wrote: »

Probably one of the turtles...but who created the turtles?

I thought they were created in some sort of nuclear accident in the new york sewers?

Ruskie4Rent

tolteq wrote: »

....then who created god?

We did!

marabhfuil

I saw god once. He was driving a Mercedez and he was crying

marabhfuil

Man... God is there alright. He's just getting too much diversion out of us to interviene. In fact we are teaching him. We explain to him what things are. For example he can't feel sorrow so he experiences it through us-though he never actually feels sorry. Its all a big game of his divise. really it doesn't matter to him what you do. your actions only affect each other. If ye get me.

Whats that?... Okay... He says to stop thinking about him coz your confusing him... okay... He says just get on with it and have more fun... okay...he likes that he says...:rolleyes:

X AcT X EviL

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

'god'= physics ->physics created the world (lets not be local here) and everything else ->Man created god as man didnt know about physics-> physics = god.

I couldn't put it better myself. No seriously, I couldn't.

tech77

AlkalineAcid wrote: »

If God was created by something then what created that which created God?

Hold on, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Let's do this thing one step at a time:

So anyone got an answer to the OP yet.
Anyone??

Then we'll do yours.
OK?

togster

tolteq wrote: »

created the world. then who created god?

Well first of all, what "god" are you talking about here?

marco_polo

stevej wrote: »

God is the only necessary being - we are all contingent. We are contingent on our parents having created us etc., just as they are on their parents etc........

You can keep going back but not to an infinite regress......it must start somewhere.

If we see a ball rolling down the road, something had to start that - it can't happen by itself, and it's the same with creation. Nothing can appear from nothing. Something must have started the chain, and that something has to be a necessary being that can't have been created itself.

As someone already said, if we say a big bang started everything, then where did the big bang come from? What caused that? Everything must have a cause in order to realise an effect.

Everything requires a cause.

Except one thing.

Brilliant.

And what is the something that can't have been created made of?

IrelandSpirit

X AcT X EviL wrote: »

I couldn't put it better myself. No seriously, I couldn't.

Nor I! That's it in a nutshell. Have ya looked into Nassim Haramein's work? Physicist. He's working on a unified field theory based on a fractalized universe, i.e. on the old alchemical principle of 'the part contains the whole' or 'as Above so Bellow.'

Turtwig

stevej wrote: »

God is the only necessary being - we are all contingent. We are contingent on our parents having created us etc., just as they are on their parents etc........

You can keep going back but not to an infinite regress......it must start somewhere.

If we see a ball rolling down the road, something had to start that - it can't happen by itself, and it's the same with creation. Nothing can appear from nothing. Something must have started the chain, and that something has to be a necessary being that can't have been created itself.

As someone already said, if we say a big bang started everything, then where did the big bang come from? What caused that? Everything must have a cause in order to realise an effect.

Why does it have to start somewhere, our minds may tell us that things must have beginnings but what if somethings have no beginings?
What if it they just always there? (Seems more plausible than something from nothing)

IrelandSpirit

Malty_T wrote: »

Why does it have to start somewhere, our minds may tell us that things must have beginnings but what if somethings have no beginings?
What if it they just always there? (Seems more plausible than something from nothing)

Yep, hard to put into words why, but that's the way I see it too. The universe is ever-expanding into infinity and ever-contracting into infinity - everything always was. Our minds, locked within a binary paradigm, will never completely accept this.
Beyond the binary paradigm though, we do, all of us - comprehension is total without the need for 'beginnings' or 'endings' - and that direct experience of our totality, is that which we call 'God.'

God is not an old bearded fella sitting on a cloud... I duno what Micheal Angelo was smoking when he painted that!

But the direct experience of God, of our totality and interconnectedness with all things, with creation itself, that is God - and that which we all, deep down, yearn to return to, I think...

Does that make sense?

Turtwig

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Yep, hard to put into words why, but that's the way I see it too.
Beyond the binary paradigm though, we do, all of us - comprehension is total without the need for 'beginnings' or 'endings' - and that direct experience of our totality, is that which we call 'God.'

God is not an old bearded fella sitting on a cloud... I duno what Micheal Angelo was smoking when he painted that!

But the direct experience of God, of our totality and interconnectedness with all things, with creation itself, that is God - and that which we all, deep down, yearn to return to, I think...

Does that make sense?

The universe is ever-expanding into infinity and ever-contracting into infinity - everything always was. Our minds, locked within a binary paradigm, will never completely accept this.

Put in words better than I could anyway, now let's try layman terms

Not sure about the whole return to thing though; I love life for what it is - energy sounds plain old boring.

IrelandSpirit

Malty_T wrote: »

Put in words better than I could anyway, now let's try layman terms .

hmmm, see your point... problem is, this is a total mindf*ck whatever terms or language we use. God, being infinite, reduced to something within the capacity of language to describe, ceases to be God...

Ok, put it this way:

Something infinite, that never ends, by definition never begins to end. It is, always.

Therefore, before there was God, there was God.



I love life too.

Right, time for a pint...

sells

Martin johnson

robbie_998

nice thread but if god created himself would he not already be created in order to create himself ?

or

what if god was one of us ?

thanks Hal1... it was only a matter of time !

Hal1

robbie_998 wrote: »

nice thread but if god created himself would he not already be created in order to create himself ?

or

what if god was one of us ?

Just a slob like one of us.... :rolleyes:

thebouldwhacker

tech77 wrote: »

Hold on, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Let's do this thing one step at a time:

So anyone got an answer to the OP yet.
Anyone??

Then we'll do yours.
OK?

Hmmmm, I thought I did, so did a number of others... just cos you may not like/accept/understand the answer doesnt make it untrue:)

Joe1919

This idea about 'emergence' seems to have possibilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Perhaps the positive and negative forces (that constitute nature) have a sum total that is zero and emerge from the abyss of nothingness.

minusorange

Joycey wrote: »

I did

But who created you :cool:

IrelandSpirit

Joe1919 wrote: »

This idea about 'emergence' seems to have possibilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Perhaps the positive and negative forces (that constitute nature) have a sum total that is zero and emerge from the abyss of nothingness.

"We come from nothing, and we go to nothing - so what 'ave we got to worry about? Nothing! Al-ways look on the bri-ight side of life! da-doo da-doo da-doo-di-doo di-doo..."

hehehe

RCorrigan

God is a wonderful mystic topic, always brings great debate, which seems to come from moviesrme mostly. Energy is god in my opinion, always existed, will never end. When you look in the mirror you will see god, if you want that is or you will see the devil is this so pleases you. Death is nonexistent and life is one big journey. Evolution is a natural process, that some. have oppressed and reserved for only a few.

Love is where your god is and always will be........

It always amazes me how people get so upbeat about the death of a loved one and go to mass on a regular basis. If they truly understand when they pray and preach, they would know life is one big adventure.

We are the teachers of our own fate......
Energy is all around us.......
Food has the power to heal.........
Unfortunate we don’t nourish the soul with natural products mother earth gives us.

Have a rich day!

Joycey

minusorange wrote: »

But who created you :cool:

My mammy and daddy.

I like your name BTW, did you get that from the Hawtin tune?

extrinzic

RCorrigan wrote: »

God is a wonderful mystic topic, always brings great debate, which seems to come from moviesrme mostly. Energy is god in my opinion, always existed, will never end. When you look in the mirror you will see god, if you want that is or you will see the devil is this so pleases you. Death is nonexistent and life is one big journey. Evolution is a natural process, that some. have oppressed and reserved for only a few.

Love is where your god is and always will be........

It always amazes me how people get so upbeat about the death of a loved one and go to mass on a regular basis. If they truly understand when they pray and preach, they would know life is one big adventure.

We are the teachers of our own fate......
Energy is all around us.......
Food has the power to heal.........
Unfortunate we don’t nourish the soul with natural products mother earth gives us.

Have a rich day!

The thing about energy is that it dissipates overtime, via entropy. So if god is energy, he may eventually go as flat as a bottle of soda with a loose cap. Still, I get the gist of what your saying, just couldn't resist

sKepTics_George

If "something" created God, Is there anything else created by that "thing".
Or was it a once of thing.

HydeRoad

If God is the collective consciousness of the world, is it possible that there wasn't always a God, but that God, too, has evolved slowly as the consiousness and intelligence of mankind evolves?

In that way, God did not create the world, pure science gives us that. Yet there is a huge leap between the rest of creation and the rise of self awareness in mankind. That self awareness is our collective consciousness, something we barely understand or use 5% of. But that is where God is, and God may be evolving too.

As a slightly humourous aside, God too may be asking the same questions as us, and cannot know the answers until human intelligence is sufficiently advanced.

extrinzic

HydeRoad wrote: »

If God is the collective consciousness of the world, is it possible that there wasn't always a God, but that God, too, has evolved slowly as the consiousness and intelligence of mankind evolves?

In that way, God did not create the world, pure science gives us that. Yet there is a huge leap between the rest of creation and the rise of self awareness in mankind. That self awareness is our collective consciousness, something we barely understand or use 5% of. But that is where God is, and God may be evolving too.

As a slightly humourous aside, God too may be asking the same questions as us, and cannot know the answers until human intelligence is sufficiently advanced.

That’s a very Hegelian idea. The dialectic or life spirit essentially reflects how the individual, in reality, plays an insignificant role in the development of human consciousness and human history. God, can be seen to be a combination of all that exists, and evolves as such. As both history and consciousness develop, contradictions are overcome through conflict, until, ultimately, the conflicting movements/ideas are combined, or the weaker of the divisions is overcome. It has had a huge impact on how we understand the present, past and future today. The ancients would have understood history to be circular, but Hegel convinced everybody in a progressive line. It has inspired everybody from Darwin to Marx, and much more beside. Postmodern theory, and existentialism, can be seen as an antagonistic reaction to such an idea.

GenghisCon

marabhfuil wrote: »

Man... God is there alright. He's just getting too much diversion out of us to interviene. In fact we are teaching him. We explain to him what things are.

extrinzic wrote: »

That’s a very Hegelian idea. The dialectic or life spirit essentially reflects how the individual, in reality, plays an insignificant role in the development of human consciousness and human history. God, can be seen to be a combination of all that exists, and evolves as such. As both history and consciousness develop, contradictions are overcome through conflict, until, ultimately, the conflicting movements/ideas are combined, or the weaker of the divisions is overcome.

+1 or + ∞, which ever comes first. My understanding of topic is that the universe or rather, a universe that allows for consciouness is an attempt to allow "GOD" (be that what s/he/it may) to experience reality objectively. If we examine an absolute entity that ecompasses the totality of reality, it can only experience subjectively because nothing is outside its own field of existence. Rather it is both the subject, and the object. The division between subjective and objective reasoning is meaningless, because there is nothing except for it, it cannot develop a frame of reference.

Now if reality is structured to allow the totality of consciousness to have an aggregate sutructure whereby it can subdivided into individual components with an objective perceiption of reality then "GOD" can avail of an objective frame of reference. Therefore the rise of consciousness allows GOD/the universe/everything/douglas adams copyright infringement to have objectively knowledge and awareness. This becomes interesting when, if we think that consciousness has a directional element then what is end point or ultimate goal? Is an all knowing objective GOD the ultimate aim?

Of course this brings an interesting slant on to the question of good/evil and the existence interventionalist god.

btw long time reader first time. Greetings and saltutations to all.