A thread requested by Jakkass to respond to me

Sam Vimes

Following on from this post:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60155579&postcount=117

Jakkass has asked that I start a new thread in order for him to respond to me. so here it is

There's no point repeating myself, you can see the points in the linked post

I'll just add the question for clarification: if true and valid morals come from God, why is it that people who are not christians and even people who have never heard of christianity share pretty much the same morality? And do you think that there are any example in the bible of things that do not appear moral?

Zombrex

Sam Vimes wrote: »

if true and valid morals come from God, why is it that people who are not christians and even people who have never heard of christianity share pretty much the same morality?

that's easy, God made everyone, include the people who have no idea who he is.

its like asking if morals are a product of evolution why do people who have never heard of evolution still act morally.

liah

Wicknight wrote: »

that's easy, God made everyone, include the people who have no idea who he is.

its like asking if morals are a product of evolution why do people who have never heard of evolution still act morally.

Do people actually use that argument?

That is one hell of a cop out.

Kipperhell

Morality as creation of god is simply ludicrous idea but to be expected from anybody who believes god created everything. Morality is a very fluid concept that changes with society I doubt there is a world wide view of morality to start with. Christian churches have certainly acted immorally by our current western beliefs of morality

Sam Vimes

Wicknight wrote: »

that's easy, God made everyone, include the people who have no idea who he is.

its like asking if morals are a product of evolution why do people who have never heard of evolution still act morally.

Sorry I should have been more specific. He said that there is some basic morality built into us but true morality comes from the bible and study of god

Zombrex

liah wrote: »

Do people actually use that argument?

That is one hell of a cop out.

How is it a cop out?

Why would someone have had to have heard of God to possess the innate moral reasoning God gave humanity when he created us?

liamw

I want to know what 'true morality' is versus morality.

pH

liamw wrote: »

I want to know what 'true morality' is versus morality.

I want to know how many accounts Jackass uses!

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

I want to know what 'true morality' is versus morality.

I think normal morality is "don't kill people" etc, stuff that is obvious to everyone and "true morality" is the stuff that isn't intuitive, like the idea that something is wrong even though it doesn't hurt anyone, eg homosexuality

DS

Dawkins' dismissal of this notion is my favourite chapter in The God Delusion. The whole cherry picking process - the idea that we get our morals from the Bible collapses the moment we discard any advice from it at all, regardless of how obviously objectionable it may seem to us, because at that point we are using a different set of moral criteria that can not have come from the Bible.

Flamed Diving

Wicknight wrote: »

How is it a cop out?

Why would someone have had to have heard of God to possess the innate moral reasoning God gave humanity when he created us?

I thought that we didn't have innate morality. That's why we need the bible and Jesus to show us these things, right?

Ever hear the tired:

'If you don't believe, where do you get your morals from?'

Galvasean

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ever hear the tired:

'If you don't believe, where do you get your morals from?'

And I'm sich of stating, "From compassionate monkeys apes!"

liamw

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I think normal morality is "don't kill people" etc, stuff that is obvious to everyone and "true morality" is the stuff that isn't intuitive, like the idea that something is wrong even though it doesn't hurt anyone, eg homosexuality

To be honest I think we have to get very specific about what morals we are talking about for this one. I get what the general difference is now though (I think).

The example you gave, homosexuality; it would seem wrong for reasons associated with natural selection. It's obviously more natural for a man to be with a woman, reproduce and push genes to the next generation. I'm not arguing with you by the way because we both agree that morals don't come from the Bible, I guess I'm just stating my thoughts for this particular one...

I wish more Christians would come to comment on this thread. That's kinda why I was hoping it would be in the Christianity forum

Zombrex

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I thought that we didn't have innate morality. That's why we need the bible and Jesus to show us these things, right?

That is not Christian teaching as far as I understand it. The Bible is about salvation and how to lead morally better lives, not basic raping bad helping good instructions