running up hills

hunnymonster

I've started doing some of the local short (5km -10 mile) races here in Cork and I'm really enjoying them. I've noticed though, that while I hold my own with the boys running downhill and on flat sections, I'm overtaken quite often going uphill. I guess Some possible reasons are
1. I'm not exactly skinny and getting a heavier weight up a hill is harder (and as my weght doesn't come from muscle it's not functional)
2. I don't have the correct technique. I've been practising running up hills recently but I don't have a POA or anything, some people tell me to shorten my stride, so to just attack the hills?
3. I've sarcoidosis so my lungs tend to be a bit dodgy, maybe the lung capacity needed is greater and I just can't do that?
4. women cant climb (don't think that's true but it always men that pass me on the uphills)
Does anyone have an opinions or advice. Thanks.

--amadeus--

You need someone like DP or SJ to give you a proper answer but are you doing any hill specific training? Specifically hill reps?

hunnymonster

yes, there is a hill about 2 miles from work. It's stonking steep but not hugely long (currently takes me 3 minutes to do the full length) that I've been doing 4-8 reps of at lunchtime with the 2 miles there and back as wu/cd. Only been at it a couple of weeks so probably a bit early to have felt any benefits.

sean_d

Getting in before Enduro manages to say it - lots of cycling should help you on the hills so you should have a definite advantage there...

One thing I've found is that it can be entirely mental - you've listed out lots of negative things there as to why you can't do hills. Any chance that is seeping into your attitude as you approach the hill?
I don't know much about the ins and outs of sports psychology, but I'd gather that if you approach something thinking that you're not going to do well at it, then you're more than likely not going to do well...

hunnymonster

sean_d wrote: »

One thing I've found is that it can be entirely mental - you've listed out lots of negative things there as to why you can't do hills. Any chance that is seeping into your attitude as you approach the hill?
I don't know much about the ins and outs of sports psychology, but I'd gather that if you approach something thinking that you're not going to do well at it, then you're more than likely not going to do well...

I hope not Sean, It would be very unlikely me to think "can't do" rather than "can do". I wasn't even aware that this was a weakness until I started doing these short races and noticed this is where I was during worst.

shels4ever

hunnymonster wrote: »

I hope not Sean, It would be very unlikely me to think "can't do" rather than "can do". I wasn't even aware that this was a weakness until I started doing these short races and noticed this is where I was during worst.

Do you find that you are catching hte same people on the down hill or flat sections after the hill. My old trainer used to tell me to keep the effort even through the race, hills should slow you but not kill you. But they are also a good chance to hurt people if racing and an increase in effort on a hill can break others . If your effort level is the same and your still giving ground to others who were running at the same pace it coudl be that they have increased effort on the hill , or maybe there is some work to be done (as you are doing. ) i think enduro and the lads will know more..

RoyMcC

sean_d wrote: »

Getting in before Enduro manages to say it - lots of cycling should help you on the hills so you should have a definite advantage there...

One thing I've found is that it can be entirely mental - you've listed out lots of negative things there as to why you can't do hills. Any chance that is seeping into your attitude as you approach the hill?
I don't know much about the ins and outs of sports psychology, but I'd gather that if you approach something thinking that you're not going to do well at it, then you're more than likely not going to do well...

I'd say that's pretty true. I would have guessed HM is actually a pretty positive thinker so I'm sure that would help, together with any physical/technical improvements that may be possible.

I read a piece of advice somewhere recently - 'pretend the hill is flat.' Also the old standby 'embrace and welcome hills rather than dread them.' Any other mental tricks anyone?

TFBubendorfer

In the "useful links" post at the top there is a link to Alberto Salazar's videos about running. In one of them, he describes hill running technique.

Shorten your stride, raise your arms, lean slightly forward.

In a race I try to do just that, and I'm pretty sure it helps. Maybe it's psychological, but just like you I used to lose a few places one each hill, and that's no longer the case.

donothoponpop

hunnymonster wrote: »

I've started doing some of the local short (5km -10 mile) races here in Cork and I'm really enjoying them. I've noticed though, that while I hold my own with the boys running downhill and on flat sections, I'm overtaken quite often going uphill. I guess Some possible reasons are
1. I'm not exactly skinny and getting a heavier weight up a hill is harder (and as my weght doesn't come from muscle it's not functional)

Speaking as a chunky chap myself, this unfortunately is true. Its harder to lug that weight up a hill. Simple mass/energy equation. However, you should have an advantage going downhill, for the same reason, so just consider downhills to be where you make your move!

hunnymonster wrote: »

2. I don't have the correct technique. I've been practising running up hills recently but I don't have a POA or anything, some people tell me to shorten my stride, so to just attack the hills?

All good advice above. Short steps, keep at it till the top. Like seand says, a lot of it can be mental. If I go out running a hilly 10k loop, I tend to go hard up the hills. This means my legs are hurting halfway up, but I persevere to the top. The reward is an easy jog for a while downhill, then get back on pace, and do the same when I get to the next hill. I've been doing this a while, and have noticed great benefits from training this way.

hunnymonster wrote: »

3. I've sarcoidosis so my lungs tend to be a bit dodgy, maybe the lung capacity needed is greater and I just can't do that?

FWIW I find myself gasping for air to an alarming degree going uphill. Luckily, my cries are deafened by the gasps of those around me.:)

hunnymonster wrote: »

4. women cant climb (don't think that's true but it always men that pass me on the uphills)

Do not- DO NOT- suggest anything like this within earshot of any imra ladies who you meet at the relay! I work hard (for me) to train for the hill races, and although I'll never win them, I'm getting better times and scoring better positions than I've ever done, but still I'm beaten by ladies a lot of the time. Just look at the womens records given for the legs of the WW relay, and see how many men struggle to get near these times.

I'd say overall, practice makes perfect, its a little too soon to see benefits if you've just been doing hill repeats a few weeks: keep at them and you'll soon notice yourself flying up and over what you used to consider The Big Hill.

Seres

RoyMcC wrote: »

I read a piece of advice somewhere recently - 'pretend the hill is flat.' Also the old standby 'embrace and welcome hills rather than dread them.' Any other mental tricks anyone?

you read that in the runners world magazine , i have tried it , its ok on a slight incline but no way does it work on a mother of a hill, your thinks 'surface flat ' and your workin the arms like crazy and HR has seriously increased and then you are like who am i kiddin , surface flat

T runner

Hi Hunnymonster,

Its curious, but a lot of hill runners (myself included) can slow on shorter cross country or road hills. I guess its from being used to even pacing over longer hills and races. This might be the same for you.

This might point to undeveloped anaerobic threshold.

In those shorter races those runners who seem to be strong may be going a bit harder on the hills and recovering on the subsequent flat. I guess if youre doing a hill session you could go up at race pace but dont slow too much on the way down in order to practice recovering on the run.

Cycling is good for shallow hills where the quads are used. If the hills are steep then the calves are used more. Generally do the running reps on the hills youre likely to encounter.

The Lydiard hill workouts are great and handy for road races up to 10k. They involve a circuit with an uphill, downhill and a rep at the end (400-800m). That will help you get used to running fast after a hard hill or two.

donothoponpop

http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showthread.php?t=6609 gives some general advice on tackling steep hills, before it plummets into the all-encompassing English valley of smut, but you could have a look through the other forum posts on training.

Slogger Jogger

All good advice there. I'm not a great uphiller, but I try to measure out a steady pace, leaning forward running on my tippy toes. Keeping a good mental prespective at the same time - don't gaze off into the distance at the uphill for instance :-)
Practicing the transition from uphill to level and downhill is as important as just practicing the hill element.

billysbones

hunnymonster wrote: »

I've started doing some of the local short (5km -10 mile) races here in Cork and I'm really enjoying them. I've noticed though, that while I hold my own with the boys running downhill and on flat sections, I'm overtaken quite often going uphill. I guess Some possible reasons are
1. I'm not exactly skinny and getting a heavier weight up a hill is harder (and as my weght doesn't come from muscle it's not functional)
2. I don't have the correct technique. I've been practising running up hills recently but I don't have a POA or anything, some people tell me to shorten my stride, so to just attack the hills?
3. I've sarcoidosis so my lungs tend to be a bit dodgy, maybe the lung capacity needed is greater and I just can't do that?
4. women cant climb (don't think that's true but it always men that pass me on the uphills)
Does anyone have an opinions or advice. Thanks.

Hi, I dont have any advice sorry but Im curious to know when you got that condition and did you take up running to counteract the effects?

colblimp

I love running up hills!

I have a hill which I run up approx 3 times a week which is almost a mile long. I'll also do hill reps, about 8 - 10, up a hill which takes about 90 seconds to run up.

In training, I really lengthen the stride, pump my arms like mad and just go for it! When I'm racing, I shorten the stride but increase the cadence, but my arms still pump like mad. I always overtake other runners in races running like this. The thing is, they then overtake me on the other side...

Anyway, that's how I approach hills - hope it helps.

Zuppy

colblimp wrote: »

I love running up hills!

I have a hill which I run up approx 3 times a week which is almost a mile long. I'll also do hill reps, about 8 - 10, up a hill which takes about 90 seconds to run up.

In training, I really lengthen the stride, pump my arms like mad and just go for it! When I'm racing, I shorten the stride but increase the cadence, but my arms still pump like mad. I always overtake other runners in races running like this. The thing is, they then overtake me on the other side...

Anyway, that's how I approach hills - hope it helps.

Which hill do you use?

colblimp

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

Which hill do you use?

I use Summerhill North 3 times a week and Grattan Hill for my reps (Grattan Hill goes from the road that the railway station is on up to St. Lukes - it's a killer!)

Zuppy

Lots of traffic on summer hill north. Not great for breathing but at least you have a wide enough path.

Did you think about gardeners hill for the hill work? Quieter and straight.

RoyMcC

Last time I was in Cork Lovers' Walk was closed to traffic because of a landslip or something. It's normally a ratrun but that particular morning it was a rare opportunity to run down from Montenotte to the river - it was brilliant. I daresay it's open again now and it wouldn't be great running up there dicing with death.

Enduro

I think everyone has got there before me. Lots of good advice there.

Practice practice practice... thats the only bit I'd emphasise. You'll figure out your own capabilities.

Of your 4 points I think #1 is by far the biggest factor. I notice the difference that even a kilo or two makes to my climbing ability. It's a scientific truism.

On another point, if you're still living near my old hometown, there are many really good hills on the Great Island for hill repeats. When I'm down that direction I have a reasonably hilly route I use for training that takes me all over the island.

copacetic

some good advice above, it can help your breathing to really try and straighten up, shoulders back and look over the top of the hill. Get deep breaths blowing out your stomach, like you see some cyclists do going uphill. It is easy to take short steps and look down kinda bent over compressing your lungs and further reducing your capacity. Getting your breathing right is 3/4 of the battle on uphills imo. The rest is the short steps, lifting your kness, on your toes and driving your arms imo.

(This is all assuming that they are shortish hills that you can drive over relatively easily, imo if they are long then the effort required to drive up them holding your place may not be worth the energy expended)

MrCreosote

One bit of advice I got for longer hills was to keep the work on the posterior muscles- glutes and calves, by shortening the stride and upping the cadence, and leaning slightly forward. Keeps it aerobic and keeps the quads for the downhill. And also to keep the quads for the short sharp uphills which are more strength orientated.

My problem is the opposite- I love the uphills, but lose a lot of time going back down again...

colblimp

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

Lots of traffic on summer hill north. Not great for breathing but at least you have a wide enough path.

Did you think about gardeners hill for the hill work? Quieter and straight.

I don't seem to have any problems at all on Summerhill North, I'm so used to breathing in crap by now I think I'm immune to it!

Where is Gardeners Hill? Is it the hill opposite the furniture place on the road out to Ballyvolane? If so, it's waaaaaay too steep to run up! I made the mistake of running up it once, it almost killed me!

Zuppy

colblimp wrote: »

I don't seem to have any problems at all on Summerhill North, I'm so used to breathing in crap by now I think I'm immune to it!

Where is Gardeners Hill? Is it the hill opposite the furniture place on the road out to Ballyvolane? If so, it's waaaaaay too steep to run up! I made the mistake of running up it once, it almost killed me!

Your thinking of Rices/ Gordons Hill (not sure which name is on a map and the other is the only name the hill is known as):D

Gardeners Hill is off St. Lukes, heading towards Ballyvolane its the right turn after the Chipper and betting office. Steep hill up to the Schools main entrances. Narrow path but a lot less traffic, and in the same area as your other hills.

hunnymonster

Enduro wrote: »

On another point, if you're still living near my old hometown, there are many really good hills on the Great Island for hill repeats. When I'm down that direction I have a reasonably hilly route I use for training that takes me all over the island.

tell me about it. There are some super hills in and around Cobh. I nearly crashed into a wedding recently coming down by the catheral at speed but unable to stop :-) I run from Cobh to work in the city quite a bit but most of my other running is in the city, puring from a time managemnet pow, we leave early in the morning and home latein the evening. I'm not a fan of running on my own late at night.

colblimp

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

Your thinking of Rices/ Gordons Hill (not sure which name is on a map and the other is the only name the hill is known as):D

Gardeners Hill is off St. Lukes, heading towards Ballyvolane its the right turn after the Chipper and betting office. Steep hill up to the Schools main entrances. Narrow path but a lot less traffic, and in the same area as your other hills.

I've been past there so many times and never thought of running up the road. Where does it lead to?

Zuppy

colblimp wrote: »

I've been past there so many times and never thought of running up the road. Where does it lead to?

If you crest it at the school and continue on;
Left will take you up St. christophers drive to the tank field.
Straight on brings you to the 3 horse shoes pub. At the top of rices hill

Enduro

hunnymonster wrote: »

tell me about it. There are some super hills in and around Cobh. I nearly crashed into a wedding recently coming down by the catheral at speed but unable to stop :-) I run from Cobh to work in the city quite a bit but most of my other running is in the city, puring from a time managemnet pow, we leave early in the morning and home latein the evening. I'm not a fan of running on my own late at night.

Nearly everyone I know from Cobh has a bike-crash story to tell from growing up, myself included. Incidently, one of the traditional challenges was to climb Barrack hill (under the library arches and straight up) on a bike without wobbling. It seemed impossible back then.

I'd say you'd be grand running around the island on your own in the long summer evenings. The road along the back of the island always has a few lone walkers everytime I run along it. Coming up from there towards town over Bird's hill is one of the toughest road climbs I've ever done. Great training (and a great view). Likewise with the Glenmore road, the roads around cuskiney, and some of the roads around Ballymore seem to have a few solo walkers on them quite a lot of the time.

donothoponpop

donothoponpop wrote: »

Speaking as a chunky chap myself, this unfortunately is true. Its harder to lug that weight up a hill. Simple mass/energy equation. However, you should have an advantage going downhill, for the same reason, so just consider downhills to be where you make your move!

Just spend last night debating this point with two whippet-thin racing snakes, both of who crucify me in the hills. As I sucked down premium German beer like it was going out of fashion, I bravely fought our "Clydesdale" corner, amid gobfuls of crisps, while they patiently sipped their water. The general concensus was that I was wrong, it takes extra energy to shift the weight down a hill too, a downhill step consisting of some upward motion too. Oh well.

The extra cream I put on my chocolate cake helped ease my disappointment.:o

--amadeus--

donothoponpop wrote: »

Just spend last night debating this point with two whippet-thin racing snakes, both of who crucify me in the hills. As I sucked down premium German beer like it was going out of fashion, I bravely fought our "Clydesdale" corner, amid gobfuls of crisps, while they patiently sipped their water. The general concensus was that I was wrong, it takes extra energy to shift the weight down a hill too, a downhill step consisting of some upward motion too. Oh well.

The extra cream I put on my chocolate cake helped ease my disappointment.:o

While DP is a lot slimmer than he is trying to make out I can verify that he carb loaded for Rotterdam on larger