láthair agus ionad

pog it

Just a couple of related questions.
In Galway city the sign for the shopping centre at Terryland (or the one with Tesco and surrounding shops) says 'láthair siopa' with 'shopping centre' as the english over it.

I like the sound of láthair siopa as you always see ionad and it's not as nice a word to me, but I always thought láthair meant a 'site' in a general sense.. so was láthair used instead of 'ionad' due to the spread of shops in and around the centre itself?

So what Im thinking is that 'ionad' is used for a single centre? Can anyone help me with the usage of these two words. And also what would native speakers use the most of the two words?

Micilin Muc

Ionad would be a building and láthair would be an area of land on which something would be built.

So you'd say 'ionad siopadóireachta' but 'láthair tógála'.

pog it

That's interesting.. so would 'láthair siopa' be plain wrong dya reckon or would it be an older way of saying a shopping centre?

At the moment I can't see how 'láthair siopa' made its way onto the sign!

Micilin Muc

I reckon it's wrong. To me 'Láthair siopa' implies a place on which a shop could be built.

Shopping centres are a relatively new thing anyway, we only had street-markets before them. So I'd say there's no old way of saying it, only 'ionad siopadóireachta' is in use.

Somebody probably took the first word they saw in the dictionary, or just never bothered checking it with a proof-reader!

FlutterinBantam

pog it wrote: »

Just a couple of related questions.
In Galway city the sign for the shopping centre at Terryland (or the one with Tesco and surrounding shops) says 'láthair siopa' with 'shopping centre' as the english over it.

I like the sound of láthair siopa as you always see ionad and it's not as nice a word to me, but I always thought láthair meant a 'site' in a general sense.. so was láthair used instead of 'ionad' due to the spread of shops in and around the centre itself?

So what Im thinking is that 'ionad' is used for a single centre? Can anyone help me with the usage of these two words. And also what would native speakers use the most of the two words?

To my way of thinking the derivation of láthair siopa might come from the expresion "as láthair" which is absent = away from here,away from this place

Therefore Láthair siopa might be translated as "this place shops= shopping centre.

:P:P Think about it!!

pog it

In a bizarre way I actually think you are onto something.. as in if you are as láthair in school you are away from the place you are expected to be in.. you are away, absent.. so from that, yea, láthair has a broader sense of meaning.

But then láthair siopa would mean to me a place of shopping, or a place to be shopping.. hm...

BUT is siopa not wrong here in any case? Should it not be siopadóireachta?

Oh I wish I was from the Gaeltacht

Micilin Muc

'Láthair siopa' is just wrong! Unfortunately I see mistakes like that as lip-service to the language. They only confuse students of Irish, something they don't need!

pog it

Okay. I'm not disagreeing with you micilin muc - I don't think people actually say táim ag dul chuig an láthair siopa!!

But as to how or why it made its way to that sign, this may help a bit more maybe. In Niall O'Donaill's dictionary, he has a few meanings for láthair and oddly there is a meaning that correlates a little to our láthair siopa and that is 'ar láthair an mhargaidh' which he translates as 'in the market-place'. He also has 'láthair cruinnithe' and that is translated as 'meeting-place'. So what they may have been intending with 'láthair siopa' could be shopping 'place'...so really it's the damn english that's confusing on the sign with 'shopping centre', cause like micilin was saying, ionad siopadóireachta would be more appropriate for that.

Láthair is translated as 'place; spot; site; location'.

Sorry, I know it's going to be pedantic and over the top to some, but it's important!

pog it

Okay.. also just checked up all the meanings of 'siopa' in O'Donaill while I'm at it, and apart from siopa- shop, there is an attributive secondary meaning 'bought and sold in shops'.
So you get 'bia siopa' - shop-food as opposed to home-produced.

I don't know why here siopa is as it is in the nominative (normal noun) and then after ionad, you get siopadóireachta though.
Something to do with the genitive probably. :rolleyes:

so (and sorry micilin) say if you absolutely had to say láthair siopa would you say láthair siopa or láthair siopadóireachta.. !

Múinteoir

It's a cr*p translation; simple as that. The word 'siopa' means one individual shop, not 'shopping' or 'shops'. Don't be confused by it. Just acknowledge that it's boll*cks.