Do the ends ever justify the means?

Lovethinking

Is it ever OK to do something bad in order to get good results?
Actually, perhaps that question is a bit leading since it makes the assumption that doing something bad could get good results.
Hopefully, ye get what I'm asking despite the flawed question.

PDN

I would like to say 'No' - but then I imagine the following scenario:

A Gestapo officer knocks on a door in Nazi Germany. He asks, "Have you any Jews hidden in your house?"

I think most of us would agree that, if you have any Jews hidden in your attic, a lie is permissable in order to save lives.

Lovethinking

I see what you mean...
I can certainly see that God would unlikely condemn us for lying in such a situation... as he cares mostly about our motive
There is an example in the OT where Rahab lies just as you described (they went thataway) in order to protect some Jews in a foreign land... and God commends her for her courage and motive, while overlooking the means by which she did it.

but...

might Jesus have found a clever alternative to a lie? ( just like he did with all the tricky questions from the Scribes and Pharisees)

Again, the question is not whether God will forgive us, but rather whether it makes it right.???

Seaneh

Lovethinking wrote: »

Again, the question is not whether God will forgive us, but rather whether it makes it right.???

Indeed it is not as we already know the answer to the first.

jhegarty

PDN wrote: »

I would like to say 'No' - but then I imagine the following scenario:

A Gestapo officer knocks on a door in Nazi Germany. He asks, "Have you any Jews hidden in your house?"

I think most of us would agree that, if you have any Jews hidden in your attic, a lie is permissable in order to save lives.

I think a closer one might be if the only way to save them is to shoot the Gestapo officer.

Lovethinking

Seaneh wrote: »

Indeed it is not as we already know the answer to the first.

Sorry, I can see how you misunderstood ....
I should have written:
"Again, MY question is not whether God will forgive us, but rather whether it makes it right.??

conlonbmw

Yes

I would happily murder the 1st lunatic that went around spouting about religon.

prinz

conlonbmw wrote: »

Yes

I would happily murder the 1st lunatic that went around spouting about religon.

What are you waiting for? There's only one lunatic here.

JimiTime

prinz wrote: »

What are you waiting for? There's only one lunatic here.

Don't feed the troll, and he might go back under his bridge;)

conlonbmw

I cannot believe the rubbish you lot are spouting here.

Humans have evolved from single cell organisms over 1-2 billion of years.
Religon is around 6,000 years give or take and was invented by man after stemming from superstition also invented by man.

How can something man made make you all so stupid.

I challenge everyone in this forum to read critically about your beliefs and try and evaluate them as a sane and logical person would do with evidence.

If after this you still want to believe then at least you have tried to understand.

Galvasean

jhegarty wrote: »

I think a closer one might be if the only way to save them is to shoot the Gestapo officer.

One of the commandments forbids that. I would imagine killing someone is a worse sin than telling a lie (unless the lie leads to more death... bah, complications!).

prinz

Galvasean wrote: »

One of the commandments forbids that. I would imagine killing someone is a worse sin than telling a lie (unless the lie leads to more death... bah, complications!).

However, the act of self defence, and the defence of otherwise defenceless people could permit such an act IMO. As an absolute last resort of course. Then it would be up to God to judge the ramifications of your act. tbh the are definitely scenarios where I could see myself killing someone, but I put faith in God that I never have to be in that position.

jhegarty

Galvasean wrote: »

One of the commandments forbids that. I would imagine killing someone is a worse sin than telling a lie (unless the lie leads to more death... bah, complications!).

Well yes I get that.

Was I was saying was , "is it morally correct to kill a Gestapo officer about to drag a group of jews to the concentration camp".

Phototoxin

Althought I would like to try to live with the ideals of pacificsm assuming I with almost certainty knew he was about to kill those jews and that the reason I was killing them for them, and unless they told me not to kill him then I would have to kill him to save the innocent although I would not be happy at having killed him but somewhat comforted that I have saved the jews

Húrin

Of course. God used some brutal means in the Old Testament (Exodus through Joshua if not more) to achieve the right ends.