Why are irish people fixated with

tolteq

morbid things. alcohol. complaining. sex e.t.c

Coriolanus

1) Because we're going to die really really soon.
2) Because it's nice.
3) Because there's not much else to do when 1 = true, and you can't get 2 or 4.
4) Because it's nice.

O'Coonassa

Sex and alcohol are morbid? Hmmmm...

Cianos

I don't think these are exclusive just to Irish people...

waraf

Complaining is better than being cheerful all the time. Never trust a person who's happy all the time........they're either up to something or a complete mentalist

As for sex and drinking....all I do is talk about them cause I don't get the chance to do much of either of them

Dades

Inherited catholic guilt and the weather?

We are all sinners and sex is dirty.

The Corinthian

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Sex and alcohol are morbid? Hmmmm...

Drunken necrophilia would be.

the immortals

tolteq wrote: »

morbid things. alcohol. complaining. sex e.t.c

i'm not fixated on sex and drink and sex and drink and sex and drink..........

scanlas

I'd say because Irish people tend to be more insecure than other nations. Complaining and getting drunk makes you feel good temporarily. We're not near as insecure as the middle east though.

Babooshka

tolteq wrote: »

morbid things. alcohol. complaining. sex e.t.c

You only left out over self analysis, and feeling inferior to every other race...:P Don't think we're obsessed with anything but analysing ourselves, and we need to get over it.:)

EDIT: If you're not Irish and this is an observation from someone not Irish, sure, put on a condom there, and pass me my pint while I'm waiting....and hurry up (that's the complaining bit), etc. (that's the etc. bit)

tolteq

scanlas wrote: »

I'd say because Irish people tend to be more insecure than other nations. Complaining and getting drunk makes you feel good temporarily. We're not near as insecure as the middle east though.

thats a fair point.

philologos

scanlas wrote: »

I'd say because Irish people tend to be more insecure than other nations. Complaining and getting drunk makes you feel good temporarily. We're not near as insecure as the middle east though.

Interesting. How do you think people from the Middle East are more insecure? Also by the Middle East are you referring to the Islamic world, or are you including the State of Israel in that definition?

Latchy

I blame the gulf stream .......all that rain

scanlas

Jakkass wrote: »

Interesting. How do you think people from the Middle East are more insecure? Also by the Middle East are you referring to the Islamic world, or are you including the State of Israel in that definition?

It's just the impression I get from middle east people from day to day life and seeing them in the media ( I know the media can distort things but I can only give you my impression) they seem to have a build up of negative emotion in them that can come out as anger and violence. You just have to look at the mess that is the middle east in general. When people have a build up of negative emotions conflict can arise over nothing. I haven't got that impression from middle east women though. Also I feel the need to have women covered up in public comes from a greater insecurity of the men, if a woman cheated on your average middle east man I'd say he would be more emotionally hurt than your average non middle east man.

waraf

philologos

scanlas wrote: »

It's just the impression I get from middle east people from day to day life and seeing them in the media ( I know the media can distort things but I can only give you my impression) they seem to have a build up of negative emotion in them that can come out as anger and violence. You just have to look at the mess that is the middle east in general. When people have a build up of negative emotions conflict can arise over nothing. I haven't got that impression from middle east women though. Also I feel the need to have women covered up in public comes from a greater insecurity of the men, if a woman cheated on your average middle east man I'd say he would be more emotionally hurt than your average non middle east man.

Do you not think that they may have a reason to be angry? I also think your generalisation about Arabs and Jews are a bit extreme. Israel is pretty much a Western democracy, many of the rest are also democracies but with an Arab or an Islamic taste.

I think generalising about adultery is a bit silly. In the West (including the State of Israel) we deal with adultery in a radically different way to those in Islamic countries. In Western countries it is ignored, in many Islamic countries you can be put to death for adultery. That depends on how seriously they take it as opposed to how much they are hurt by it.

As for a build up of negative emotions and conflict rising over nothing. Are you for real? Do you think that wars and instability in the Middle East arise over nothing?

As for women covering up it comes from the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an if you read Surah 24:31 it explains this fully why women need to cover up. They believe that God has commanded them to be covered except in the family home so that men may not lust after women in public.

Surah 24:31 wrote:

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

Many Islamic authorities disagree over this verse from very liberal who say it isn't necessary at all, to moderates who wear hijab, to the more conservative who would suggest burqa.

scanlas

Life's too short too hold grudges, I'm Irish and it makes no difference too me what Irish people were slaughtered in the past undeservedly. Anger and violence will feed anger and violence in an endless cycle. You can choose to let go of anger if you want to.

philologos

Yes scanlas but do you not see that you are oversimplifying how many of these people you refer to see the world?

scanlas

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes scanlas but do you not see that you are oversimplifying how many of these people you refer to see the world?

How do these people see the world?

philologos

In a very different way than we do. You think that covering women up comes from insecurity? I'd contend it comes from the Qur'an and Islamic understanding. You think they are angry for no reason? How about being seen as regressive, and how about being slandered by others for their beliefs? How about war after war by Western powers?

It's very easy for people who live in relative peace to insist that they know more than people who don't know much more than being at war. They are polar opposites. Although of course there are many prosperous Middle Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Egypt and so on.

How can we in the West know that we always have it right anyway? It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently. There are some good things about the Islamic world, and there are some good things about the West, there are also some terrible things about both.

scanlas

Jakkass wrote: »

In a very different way than we do. You think that covering women up comes from insecurity? I'd contend it comes from the Qur'an and Islamic understanding. You think they are angry for no reason? How about being seen as regressive, and how about being slandered by others for their beliefs? How about war after war by Western powers?

It's very easy for people who live in relative peace to insist that they know more than people who don't know much more than being at war. They are polar opposites. Although of course there are many prosperous Middle Eastern nations such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Egypt and so on.

How can we in the West know that we always have it right anyway? It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently. There are some good things about the Islamic world, and there are some good things about the West, there are also some terrible things about both.

Being angry over someone slandering your beliefs is insanity, anyone can express can opinion about someone's beliefs if they want. They are only beliefs, there not life. The problem is that people attach beliefs to their identity and take it as a personal attack if someone believes their beliefs are wrong. They give there beliefs vast importance when they aren't that important. If a group of people got angry over the fact other people thought their belief that bananas were the best fruit you would was wrong you would probably think they were insane. The reason you would think that's insane is bananas probably have no content in your ego, you have not idenified with them in any way. When you look at other people's insanity over beliefs in insanity you our looking at your own insanity about your own "important" beliefs.

philologos

scanlas wrote: »

Being angry over someone slandering your beliefs is insanity, anyone can express can opinion about someone's beliefs if they want.

How is it insanity? Bear in mind that freedom of speech is a relatively recent phenomenon. Certainly in different regions of the world this isn't entirely true. In Saudi Arabia you can be given lashes for speaking out against Islam (which I assume includes denying Allah in public), blasphemy, and speaking against the royal family.

Secondly, even if people did have the right to speak freely, others have the right to be angry about whatever they want. Freedom of speech includes freedom to be angry and speak out about whatever offends you. However, it's a bit difficult to speak about freedom of speech as it's only a relatively recent Western based phenomenon.

scanlas wrote: »

They are only beliefs, there not life. The problem is that people attach beliefs to their identity and take it as a personal attack if someone believes their beliefs are wrong. They give there beliefs vast importance when they aren't that important.

There is your problem. For some people Islam defines who they are. People are defined by their religion more than they are defined by nation. This is also true of me and Christianity (i.e Christianity comes before Irishness). I generally don't throw the handle when someone insults my beliefs, but we all mess up in that respect occasionally.

As for your note on importance. Just because you don't find something important doesn't mean it isn't important to them. This is the problem with your understanding. For some people the teachings of Prophet Muhammad are the key way to live their lives. I might say that it is false but they don't think that it is false as such it won't affect how they live their lives. Other people believe that the teachings of Moses are the honest and valid truth, and then other people believe that Jesus Christ is the way to the truth.

The main question is do people want to recognise diversity or do they want to slander it. The bottom line really is we all live in this world together and it's incredibly unlikely that Islam or Christianity are going to dissappear any time soon. Why not just make our relations as best as we possibly can then?

scanlas wrote: »

If a group of people got angry over the fact other people thought their belief that bananas were the best fruit you would was wrong you would probably think they were insane. The reason you would think that's insane is bananas probably have no content in your ego, you have not idenified with them in any way. When you look at other people's insanity over beliefs in insanity you our looking at your own insanity about your own "important" beliefs.

Belief that bananas are the best fruit ever is not a worldview in any shape or form. It doesn't answer why we are here, what is our purpose, what should or shouldn't we do, and how we view humanity as a whole. As such it isn't comparing like with like and it is a false analogy.

I don't think Muslims believe in insanity by and large. I think they are mistaken but at the end of the day it is my opinion and it isn't binding.

tolteq

Jakkass wrote: »

(i.e Christianity comes before Irishness).

does it? strange. if you ask me.

tolteq

scanlas wrote: »

You can choose to let go of anger if you want to.

Its hard to with the

over-the-top Bouncer (*coughs* God) wannabe Moderators

on here.

philologos

tolteq: For me it does. That may not be the case for you.

scanlas

You have right to eat dog crap, that doesn't mean if you eat it you are not insane. A man who choses to eat dog crap is insane. You have the right to be angry over the little voices, stories and beliefs repeating over and over again in your head, but you are insane if you do. We evolved anger as a defense mechanism, not because someone thinks our beliefs are wrong.

Defining who you are with religion, beliefs etc is more insanity. It restricts the life that you are.

Defining who you are with ideas is what causes so much hatred and conflict. The world becomes a place of right and wrong, you and other people. I disagree with friends and family about lots of beliefs such as religion, it doesn't mean we can't get on, but when two parties have identified with opposing beliefs conflict easily occurs.

When you are identified with beliefs it annoys you to other people think your beliefs are stupid. Why give other people the power to influence your emotions so easily by having an ego?

I think movies have brainwashed us with all this "who we are" and "defining ourselves"being so important rubbish.

If you got amnesia and couldn't remember any of your life you would still be the same life in that moment, but details in your brain can't be retrieved. The ego loves to make a big deal of what happened in the past to distract you from the life you are in the present moment. The present moment is the enemy of the ego. The ego cannot survive in the present moment.

Why would Irishness matter to who you are, the boundarys you happened to be born in is not that important. It's just another arbitrary reason egos like to make seem important or to feel better or worse than other people. When you try to define who you are you are trying to separate yourself from other people. This can allow people to find it difficult to empathise with people of different identities, hence the reason why "good" people have commited such atrocities in the past without guilt.

philologos

scanlas wrote: »

You have right to eat dog crap, that doesn't mean if you eat it you are not insane. A man who choses to eat dog crap is insane. You have the right to be angry over the little voices, stories and beliefs repeating over and over again in your head, but you are insane if you do. We evolved anger as a defense mechanism, not because someone thinks our beliefs are wrong.

Well if you think about it we all subscribe to philosophies, if not religious belief systems. People mightn't even give them much thoughts, but we are living in a world that is structured and organised according to particular ideas. Certain philosophies or religions may not be well received by you but they are by no means "dog crap". Hop over to the philosophy forum if you want to discuss the benefits or flaws with religion theres a good thread on it at the moment.

However are 84% of the population insane for subscribing to a religion? Could it not be equally argued that the 16% that don't are insane? (N.B Not my opinion I am merely being contrary to the poster in question).

scanlas wrote: »

Defining who you are with religion, beliefs etc is more insanity. It restricts the life that you are.

I find that it enhances life. After all every man does have a cause or should have one, that's only healthy really.

scanlas wrote: »

Defining who you are with ideas is what causes so much hatred and conflict. The world becomes a place of right and wrong, you and other people. I disagree with friends and family about lots of beliefs such as religion, it doesn't mean we can't get on, but when two parties have identified with opposing beliefs conflict easily occurs.

Well there are such things as morals, and people do define rights and wrongs and that is the way that life is structured even at the highest level. If you think about it the State protects us under certain rights and wrongs in policing.

Of course disagreement is entirely normal, however it isn't just disagreement that causes war in the Middle East.

I have many friends who disagree with me on religion, I generally don't get into conflict with them though. We have a responsibility to remain peaceable to one another.

scanlas wrote: »

When you are identified with beliefs it annoys you to other people think your beliefs are stupid. Why give other people the power to influence your emotions so easily by having an ego?

Other people can think what they want about my beliefs it doesn't stop me from holding them.

scanlas wrote: »

Why would Irishness matter to who you are, the boundarys you happened to be born in is not that important. It's just another arbitrary reason egos like to make seem important or to feel better or worse than other people. When you try to define who you are you are trying to separate yourself from other people. This can allow people to find it difficult to empathise with people of different identities, hence the reason why "good" people have commited such atrocities in the past without guilt.

It matters for some. It doesn't matter so much to me. I agree with your point that I could just as likely have been born in Botswana. I don't really mind as long as I live in a country that advocates freedoms.

As for defining who I am. I am still a part of society I merely see the world differently to other people. That doesn't mean that I have to get into conflict surely? I really do not see where you are coming from here. In this example, if anyone has shown difficulty with empathising identify on this thread, it is your view of the Islamic world surely? You can't see any motivation why they live the way they live still?

scanlas

When I say dog crap I mean dog faeces in the literal sense. I'm not describin religion as dog crap. You seemed to think because you have a right to do something it can't be insane. I provided an example showing the contrary.

I don't know much about Islam and don't intend to learn about it soon as there are other things I want to learn about. It doesn't mean I can't empathise with an Islamic person.

I know you can have whatever beliefs you want no matter what other people think, I'm not disputing that, I'm saying when you identify with those beliefs you can become emotionally influenced by other people's opinions of your beliefs. For example if everyone says your beliefs are stupid you get a bad feeling in your body, maybe anger, maybe a need to react, ie. insecurity . The evil doesn't come from beliefs, it comes from identifying with beliefs. When people attach beliefs to who they are, even trivial matters can be deadly. The need to be right can casue serious harm.

helios12

scanlas wrote: »

It's just the impression I get from middle east people from day to day life and seeing them in the media ( I know the media can distort things but I can only give you my impression) they seem to have a build up of negative emotion in them that can come out as anger and violence. You just have to look at the mess that is the middle east in general. When people have a build up of negative emotions conflict can arise over nothing. I haven't got that impression from middle east women though. Also I feel the need to have women covered up in public comes from a greater insecurity of the men, if a woman cheated on your average middle east man I'd say he would be more emotionally hurt than your average non middle east man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCOSkXR_Cw

peanuthead

tolteq wrote: »

why are irish people fixated with complaining

800 years

The Corinthian

peanuthead wrote: »

800 years

"Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis." - Brendan Behan

tolteq

The Corinthian wrote: »

"Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis." - Brendan Behan

thats a fair statement.

rantyface

Actually I'd say that complaining when something is wrong is healthy. It is the only way to start to get things done about a social injustice etc.
Why should people not complain about the following things?

1) Ryan report findings
2) Recession, which is not their fault and they are suffering for
3) Awful health care system
4) Corrupt politicians
5) Rubbish public transport
6) Rude people, litter, general day-to-day malice


Are you saying we should shut up and suck it up? Talk about hair and fashion?

I appreciate that I have a great life and I'm very happy, but that doesn't mean I'm not outraged with the church, with the banks, with the health care system and about random acts of violence and petty crime. People I know and care about are affected by these things. Even when people I don't know are affected by them, I feel empathy anyway. I think everyone should care about everyone to an extent. I believe things can improve if people try and are not afraid to "whinge" or challenge social norms.

People who complain about people complaining are the reason for the institutional child abuse, the reason for corrupt politicians. Their refusal to challenge the status quo because whinging irritates them slightly is disgusting. They are the EXACT reason victims are silenced.

I think Irish people don't complain enough. If this was France there'd be strikes and heads rolling.

(And Brendan Behan is completely outdated. Using a well known quote out of context does not make you seem cleverer, except possibly to complete idiots.)

Porkpie

Sex - I have no problem with that, not obsexed at all. Alchohol, well that's like asking the Germans why they have to be on time. I just asked my dead girlfriend about the whole morbid thing, but she's not speaking to me at present. Could be because of all the complaining I do about her worms.

Wibbs

rantyface wrote: »

I think Irish people don't complain enough. If this was France there'd be strikes and heads rolling.

Oh we complain enough, we just don't act on it. Trying to organise a large group of Irish people into action is very difficult. It certainly seems to be easier elsewhere.

I saw that in Madrid. A local council decided to put in parking meters in one area. Now in this area, many if not most people have to park on the street as there were few parking facilities in apartments. It's been like that for a while, so accepted as the status quo and this was considered a step too far. So they got together and did something concrete about it. First they organised a march to the council offices to protest. That didn't work so they got all latin and at night took sledgehammers to the meters and sprayed what was left yellow. So the council put in new ones. So they had another march and when that didn't work they broke out the hammers again. They weren't replaced the second time.

The Irish version would likely be, bitch and moan. Bitch and moan further in the pub. Write a few letters. Try and get some legal objection going. Then fold at the first hurdle and the meters would be in. Followed by a tacit acceptance that "sure isn't only for our own good".

The Corinthian

rantyface wrote: »

(And Brendan Behan is completely outdated. Using a well known quote out of context does not make you seem cleverer, except possibly to complete idiots.)

I think your accusation is false, if only because it failed to make me seem more clever to you.

Porkpie

Wibbs wrote: »

The Irish version would likely be, bitch and moan. Bitch and moan further in the pub. Write a few letters.

True enough. Probably post in Boards.ie.

rantyface

I agree that we do not act enough, but I think discussing important issues and hearing all sides of an argument is a good thing to do. Moaning and being ungrateful is irritating, but most people are not moaners.

I think what Tolteq means (although it's difficult to tell because of his/her bizarre, poetic line-breaks, lack of punctuation, inarticulate posts and general vagueness) is that we shouldn't complain when things are wrong, be interested in sex or drink because it's morbid to do so. It's complete and utter rubbish and I can't believe this thread is still going.

"Morbid" is the wrong word for what he's trying to say and he's also wrong that we're obsessed with sex, or that it is a bad thing to be interested in it anyway. A quick poll of posters here would quickly show that we are not, as a nation, obsessed with sex. End of debate.

Also, statements like "Irish people are moany, alcoholic perverts", "Jews are scabby hypocrites" and "Romanians are habitual law-breakers" are prejudiced and inaccurate. Tolteq is obviously not from Ireland, or any English-speaking country, and I find his comments offensive.

tolteq

rantyface wrote: »

I think what Tolteq means (although it's difficult to tell because of his/her bizarre, poetic line-breaks, lack of punctuation, inarticulate posts and general vagueness)

LOL. I am 100% Irish, and I am a "he". And why can't I be critical of Irish people? Is the language in this sentence ok? Dear oh dear.

rantyface

You shouldn't generalise because you can't know enough people! Similar people tend to hang out together. My friends would not be representitive at all, for example. All of my friends are very educated and thin- that's just how it happened. If you sampled 1000 people where I live you'd get a very different idea of what Irish people are than if you sampled 1000 on the Southside, or the inner city or in Belfast, Donegal, Aran Islands, Kerry. If you sample 1000 who went to college they'll have a different world view to 1000 who didn't, on the whole. People in different age groups have different views on average.
Even if you did try to sample that, you only ever notice the noisy, obnoxious ones from any group, so we get the "skanger" and "D4" stereotypes, even though the majority of those people aren't that bad.

So explain clearly what a psychosis is, and what specific psychosis the Irish have, then I will think that you are not a complete moron. Also tell me what is wrong with the Jews. I only know one Jewish family and they're all much older than me so I couldn't generalise. They seem healthy enough to me, but since you are fairly sure they have psychoses, maybe not!

The Corinthian

rantyface wrote: »

So explain clearly what a psychosis is, and what specific psychosis the Irish have, then I will think that you are not a complete moron. Also tell me what is wrong with the Jews. I only know one Jewish family and they're all much older than me so I couldn't generalise. They seem healthy enough to me, but since you are fairly sure they have psychoses, maybe not!

Another kid with a politically correct axe to grind...

The quote by Behan was in response to a rather inane post by another user who cited "800 years" - of course meaning those 800 years of English/Norman oppression with all the associated images of penal laws, plantations, flight of Earls and potato famines - as if it defines all that it is to be Irish today, or otherwise justifies our own shortcomings.

This perpetuation of a victimization history, that somehow explains the actions (and inactions) of the Irish today has reached the point of mythology and a "loss of contact with reality"; which is what a psychosis ultimately is.

I can't think of too many people I know who have any real problems due to the British occupation. Actually, I can't think of any still alive. Grand, if you have lived in the North, or on the Border and have actually been on the receiving end of the troubles, but far to the south? bah! Complete rubbish. Its one of these things that Irish people throw out to be "fashionable". Well, we were victims, so that excuses us from <whatever>.

For my own part, I just think Irish people are in love with Drama. We complain about just about everything under the sun, and never really do anything about it. I've been hearing about government corruption all my life, and very little has been done to stop it, or even better bring justice to those who performed these actions. But if you join any conversation about Irish Politics in a pub, you'll hear about the more notorious politicians, and then about the local authority corruption and bribery. But nothing is ever realy done, unless its a tribunal that takes 10 years plus, and doesn't actually bring criminal charges against the guilty.

Irish people are essentially drama addicts. God forbid that we actually do anything about the issues we complain about, cause then we mightn't have anything to talk about.

rantyface

I don't know anyone who thinks like that either. I live in Dublin, maybe it's stronger in other places. Someone's voting Sinn Fein.

I'm not being politically correct- I really don't care about that, but random, insulting, generalisations based on nothing but a few encounters, stated as fact are VERY annoying. I don't know how some people are so confident with their unfounded opinions. It doesn't matter how verbose and convincing you are. Prove it or at least back it up with a survey of a couple of thousand people if you're going to say things like that.

rantyface

rantyface wrote: »

I don't know anyone who thinks like that either. I live in Dublin, maybe it's stronger in other places. Someone's voting Sinn Fein.

Yes, but are they voting Sinn Fein because of past history, or because they're so despondent about the other political parties, and consider SF more capable of looking after their needs? Personally I believe SF to be one of the worst parties, although then again, I can't really approve of any of the parties... As bad as each other.

I'm not being politically correct- I really don't care about that, but random, insulting, generalisations based on nothing but a few encounters, stated as fact are VERY annoying. I don't know how some people are so confident with their unfounded opinions. It doesn't matter how verbose and convincing you are. Prove it or at least back it up with a survey of a couple of thousand people if you're going to say things like that.

You might have missed the part where i said... For my own part, I think....

But TBH what you say above basically discounts everyone's opinions that don't include completely proven facts/statistics..

The Corinthian

rantyface wrote: »

I don't know anyone who thinks like that either. I live in Dublin, maybe it's stronger in other places. Someone's voting Sinn Fein.

It's more prevalent in the countryside, but there's plenty of that attitude still alive an well also in the cities, especially in working-class areas.

It was an attitude that was far more commonplace up until the nineties, and anyone who went to school prior to that will remember the anti-British propaganda that was taught in school and undoubtedly coloured the attitudes of generation after generation. The Celtic Tiger did a lot in terms of discrediting this negative, victim-culture, as most of us came to the realization that we really couldn't blame the British and "800 years" for the banana republic we lived in, but nonetheless given people will still glibly use the term, it is evidently still there.

I'm not being politically correct- I really don't care about that, but random, insulting, generalisations based on nothing but a few encounters, stated as fact are VERY annoying. I don't know how some people are so confident with their unfounded opinions. It doesn't matter how verbose and convincing you are. Prove it or at least back it up with a survey of a couple of thousand people if you're going to say things like that.

You're overreacting. Seriously, get over it. I was responding to someone who had that attitude, specifically with a quote from an Irishman, criticizing this very attitude.

This attitude is now very much in the minority, but nonetheless is still there and, as you noted, is enough to get Sinn Fein elected in places. So I suggest you dismount and get on with the rest of the discussion.