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Is it Catholic to be hypocritical?

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    #2
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Not exactly sure what this is about. Some woman that most people in Ireland have probably never heard of doesn't want to stand on the same stage as Obama because he is pro-choice or something. This is my reading of your post.

    Well, by way of an answer, it is her right to make a protest. I don't see why it's considered hypocritical.


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    #3
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I don't see why it's considered hypocritical.

    She was a US Government Ambassador when they were busy blowing up civilians etc.


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    #4
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    She was a US Government Ambassador when they were busy blowing up civilians etc.

    When who was blowing up civilians? Did she support attempts to blow up civilians?


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    #5
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    When who was blowing up civilians? Did she support attempts to blow up civilians?

    She was a member of the United States Government/State apparatus that just yesterday has blown up 100 innocent men women and children. There's really nothing at all new in their having done so.


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    #6
    mynamesjay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭mynamesjay


    Seems to me like she is standing up for what she believes in. And you've got a problem with that?


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    #7
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    mynamesjay wrote: »
    Seems to me like she is standing up for what she believes in. And you've got a problem with that?

    I think perhaps the OP has a problem with the fact that she elects to describe herself as 'pro-life' when clearly she isn't and was quite happy to be in the employ of Babylon and it's murderers.


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    #8
    mynamesjay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭mynamesjay


    She elects herself to be a Christian, at a "Christian" school, Who have given an award to someone who's policies go against Christian beliefs. The fact she is employed by the government should not prevent this. If I were to work for the Irish government in one area of government and another area of government were killing civilians it would not mean I condone that.. it would just mean I'm earning an honest living. I'm sure if you broached her on the subject she would be opposed to murdering of innocent people as would any normal human being. Are you saying you believe she had some sort of part to play in the decision her government make as regards foreign policy more so then any other american citizen??


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    #9
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    mynamesjay wrote: »
    She elects herself to be a Christian, at a "Christian" school, Who have given an award to someone who's policies go against Christian beliefs. The fact she is employed by the government should not prevent this. If I were to work for the Irish government in one area of government and another area of government were killing civilians it would not mean I condone that.. it would just mean I'm earning an honest living. I'm sure if you broached her on the subject she would be opposed to murdering of innocent people as would any normal human being. Are you saying you believe she had some sort of part to play in the decision her government make as regards foreign policy more so then any other american citizen??

    You see no contradiction in her protesting against Obama but then on the other hand not only not protesting against a Government that commits a great evil but by being paid by it to help it function. I'm sorry, but where I come from that's called hypocrisy.


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    #10
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    You see no contradiction in her protesting against Obama but then on the other hand not only not protesting against a Government that commits a great evil but by being paid by it to help it function. I'm sorry, but where I come from that's called hypocrisy.

    There are plenty of people who see abortion as being a worse evil than their country's involvement in a war. You may disagree with them, but I think it's out of order to label them as hypocrites. By the sounds of it this lady is acting in accordance with her beliefs and has found a peaceful and non-violent way of making her protest - something that most of us would see as laudable if we happened to agree with her priorities.


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    #11
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    PDN wrote: »
    There are plenty of people who see abortion as being a worse evil than their country's involvement in a war

    Fair enough, although I'd question how they can possibly be consistant about the sanctity of life and arrive at such a position.


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    #12
    mynamesjay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭mynamesjay


    Intelligent response PDN. I agree with you. Someone who lives in America is not, by choosing to work for their government, involved in acts carried out by entirely different sectors of their government. If she were in the military and condemning abortion at the same time then you might have reason to take issue with her personal beliefs. I dont think that her choice to work a government job means she has to renounce her Chrsitian beliefs.


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    #13
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    mynamesjay wrote: »
    Intelligent response PDN. I agree with you. Someone who lives in America is not, by choosing to work for their government, involved in acts carried out by entirely different sectors of their government. If she were in the military and condemning abortion at the same time then you might have reason to take issue with her personal beliefs. I dont think that her choice to work a government job means she has to renounce her Chrsitian beliefs.

    If the government she works for carries out un-Christian actions then I fail to understand how she's not morally responsible. It's like a Catholic admin nurse working at an abortion clinic being OK with it because she's not the one having or giving an abortion.


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    #14
    mynamesjay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭mynamesjay


    There is a massive gap in your logic. A practicing Catholic nurse working in an abortion clinic would be directly involved in the process which she is opposed to. This women is not even remotely involved in the killing of innocent people that we are referring to.


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    #15
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    nobody has any idea of what actually consitute 'Christian' beleifs, its a difficult question to answer.

    We are supposed to beleive now that Christian beleifs are nice and lovey-dovey and about caring for your fellow man, in fact some go so far as to say that the very idea of giving a toss about your fellow man at all, is inherently Christian. Some parts of the Bible point in this direction, and others dont.

    As well as this, as a Catholic one is supposed to believe in the teachings an organisation that until comparitively recently was able to burn you alive for disagreeing with it's teachings. In fact, the only reason it stopped burning people alive at all, was because of the growing influence of people who weren't in it - Humanists.

    Not to mention that the core texts of the Bible contradict even each other, especially when it comes to the central tenet of the whole shebang: Jesus' supposed ressurection.

    More likely it seems that the Bible is a book onto which ordinary fallible human beings project whatever their own outlook on the world happens to be, find whichever verses point in that direction, and then claim that their views are divinely sanctioned.

    This outlook explains why there are plenty of perfectly decent and reasonable Catholics in the world, and plenty of nutjobs, and all shades in between.

    Therefore it wouldnt surprise me to find a Catholic that is anywhere from Pro-Abortion to Anti-Abortion, from Communist to Fascist, from Patriotic to an Anarchist. The 'teachings' of an admitedly interesting, but hopelessly muddled text, as interpreted by centuries of different people, is hardly going to result in a coherent body of opinion on anything.


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    #16
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    mynamesjay wrote: »
    There is a massive gap in your logic. A practicing Catholic nurse working in an abortion clinic would be directly involved in the process which she is opposed to. This women is not even remotely involved in the killing of innocent people that we are referring to.

    IMO very clearly paying taxes to such a Government that will use them to do such things, let alone actually doing its donkey work, is being involved in the process.

    Anyhow I was merely attempting to explain what I thought was the OP's position and as they've now been banned and it is not something I'd personally have chosen to get upset about I'm going to leave it at that.


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    #17
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    IMO very clearly paying taxes to such a Government that will use them to do such things, let alone actually doing its donkey work, is being involved in the process.


    Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.Doesn't mean Jesus is now supporting or sanctioning Rome's war against the tribes of Germany.


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    #18
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    prinz wrote: »
    Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.Doesn't mean Jesus is now supporting or sanctioning Rome's war against the tribes of Germany.

    Caesar considered himself a god, to Jews like Jesus his image was utmost blasphemy. I don't think his pointing this out in any way meant he was working for the Romans.


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    #19
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    She was a US Government Ambassador when they were busy blowing up civilians etc.


    Ambassador to the Vatican. The Americans generally tend to appoint learned Catholics to that post, regardless of what is going on in the world. Do you know what she did in the Vatican? Do you know what her agenda there was? I don't know what angle you're pushing here more anti-Americanism or just anti-Catholic.

    I have issues with Niall O'Dowd anyway on other matters, but this is a completely partisan attack by a declared Democrat, who is using his position to whip up pro-Obama sentiment amongst the Irish readers in the hope of getting a deal with his administration on the undocumented Irish in America.

    A hundred days or so in and all the hype about Obama has died down and people realise what.... he's actually done very, very little.... about anything, a few well meaning speeches here and there. A lot of talk and very little action.


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    #20
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    Caesar considered himself a god, to Jews like Jesus his image was utmost blasphemy. I don't think his pointing this out in any way meant he was working for the Romans.


    He was recommending people to pay their taxes to Rome.
    IMO very clearly paying taxes to such a Government that will use them to do such things, let alone actually doing its donkey work, is being involved in the process.


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    #21
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    IMO very clearly paying taxes to such a Government that will use them to do such things, let alone actually doing its donkey work, is being involved in the process.

    Anyhow I was merely attempting to explain what I thought was the OP's position and as they've now been banned and it is not something I'd personally have chosen to get upset about I'm going to leave it at that.

    Certainly wasn't us who banned the OP. To be banned after one post probably means they were site-banned for reregistering under a different name or something similar. :)

    Following your logic, would you see it as hypocritical for anyone opposed to abortion to work for a government that funded or facilitated abortions? That would mean that virtually all christians in the US would need to quit their jobs as teachers, civil servants etc.


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    #22
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    PDN wrote: »
    Certainly wasn't us who banned the OP. To be banned after one post probably means they were site-banned for reregistering under a different name or something similar. :)

    Well I was wondering what the story was, I've seen you tolerate far worse than his post...
    PDN wrote: »
    Following your logic, would you see it as hypocritical for anyone opposed to abortion to work for a government that funded or facilitated abortions? That would mean that virtually all christians in the US would need to quit their jobs as teachers, civil servants etc.

    Yes PDN in my strange world working for a Government that does things you're utterly morally opposed to seems to demonstrate that your opposition is mere lip service IMO.


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    #23
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    prinz wrote: »
    He was recommending people to pay their taxes to Rome.

    He was talking his way out of a trap AFAIK


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    #24
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    He was talking his way out of a trap AFAIK

    he still said it.

    Surely you cant say that you agree with everything the Irish government does (allowing shannon to be used for refuling of military aircraft implicates us in the Iraq and afghanistan wars too btw) yet im sure you pay taxes?


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    #25
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Seaneh wrote: »
    he still said it.

    He did but he was under no small amount of pressure and was unable to answer either 'no' or 'yes' if you recall. His inquisitors would have been in no uncertainty about what the image of Caesar constituted in terms of their religion given that it was a graven image of one claimed to be a god. It wasn't a bit of advice that he offered under his own volition so it isn't really fair IMO to treat it as if it was.
    Seaneh wrote: »
    Surely you cant say that you agree with everything the Irish government does (allowing shannon to be used for refuling of military aircraft implicates us in the Iraq and afghanistan wars too btw) yet im sure you pay taxes?

    Seaneh my tithes go elsewhere, I'm not even sure that the Irish Government knows of my existance tbh. It's true they get some VAT off me when I buy food but I really try my best to keep that amount to bare minimum. I certainly wouldn't ever work for them.


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    #26
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    prinz wrote: »
    I don't know what angle you're pushing here more anti-Americanism or just anti-Catholic.

    I was trying to explain why the OP may have considered her to be a hypocrite. In my book though whatever or whoever works for Babylon is Babylonian :D


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    #27
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Do you have a PPSN number?
    Do you have a Job?
    You have an internet connection (unless you leech your neighbours wireless).

    If you were born here im pretty sure they know you're still here.


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    #28
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    Yes PDN in my strange world working for a Government that does things you're utterly morally opposed to seems to demonstrate that your opposition is mere lip service IMO.

    I wonder where it stops. How far down the food chain do you go?

    It's probably a safe bet to assume that some item of footwear or clothing that each one of us possesses is sold by a company that knowing outsources their manufacturing to some grotty sweatshop that doesn't run on the principal of "a fair days wages for a fair days work". Likewise, some of the food we consume is produced in countries that pursue questionable if not outright illegal acts of State. For instance, I don't like what Israel does in Palestine but I have bought dates (or some such) produced there. Why, you are probably typing you message on a computer that was partly built in a country like China.


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    #29
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I wonder where it stops. How far down the food chain do you go?

    It's probably a safe bet to assume that some item of footwear or clothing that each one of us possesses is sold by a company that knowing outsources their manufacturing to some grotty sweatshop that doesn't run on the principal of "a fair days wages for a fair days work". Likewise, some of the food we consume is produced in countries that pursue questionable if not outright illegal acts of State. For instance, I don't like what Israel does in Palestine but I have bought dates (or some such) produced there. Why, you are probably typing you message on a computer that was partly built in a country like China.

    I think the onus is upon us to go as far down the food chain as we can each of us get. Obviously it is impossible to entirely disentangle ourselves from Babylon, I do what I can and am careful what I buy. My clothes are 2nd hand and my PC is made from scavenged parts but yes there was likely some injustice involved in the manufacture of both. However this being tangled up in the system is I feel quite different to actively working for it's benefit, as in the case of Government employees.


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    #30
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Do you have a PPSN number?
    Do you have a Job?
    You have an internet connection (unless you leech your neighbours wireless).

    If you were born here im pretty sure they know you're still here.

    Seaneh even though I'm not an American I'm going to plead the 5th on this one ;)


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    #31
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    ok, btw, "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you!"*









    *Just kidding!


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