Knee strengthening exercises

AstraMonti

Hello!

My right knee is giving me trouble for the last 2 months. I tried to rest it for a few days didn't make any difference. Went to the doc, made an mri scan which didn't show anything wrong with the internal parts of the knee. Now his advice is to fully rest it - aka don't touch a bicycle - for the next 6 weeks (:eek:) and also take antinflammatory pills and that should sort it.

I am really not willing to stay off the bike for 6 weeks, but i can take the pills for what its worth. The thing i want to ask is if you know any exersices that can help me strengthen the knee faster. If that means that i have to join a gym i would do it, i really really don't want to stay off the bike for 6 weeks.

Also to add that i don't think that the pain is due to a wrong position on the bike, i had followed lots of links and videos that said my fit was ok.

Cheers!

scottreynolds

AstraMonti wrote: »

I am really not willing to stay off the bike for 6 weeks, but i can take the pills for what its worth.

Its probably best to see a good physio. I would say that its more likely to be a muscle imbalance rather than a actual problem. I had a feeling I strained my knee a while ago but now its apparent its a tight I.T. Band which I get massaged and stretch. Its slowly easing the pain.

Until its correctly diagnosed then biking won't really help since its what caused it in the first place.

I'll be the first to offer €500 to take your new bike off your hands to stop you wanting to ride it..... hell, some one round here may even take your gf out

AstraMonti

scottreynolds wrote: »

Its probably best to see a good physio. I would say that its more likely to be a muscle imbalance rather than a actual problem. I had a feeling I strained my knee a while ago but now its apparent its a tight I.T. Band which I get massaged and stretch. Its slowly easing the pain.

Until its correctly diagnosed then biking won't really help since its what caused it in the first place.

I'll be the first to offer €500 to take your new bike off your hands to stop you wanting to ride it..... hell, some one round here may even take your gf out

hahaha Thats what friends are for! :-P

I 've gone to Paul Tansey for physiotherapy, unfortunately he couldn't help me, after 3 sessions i was feeling worse actually. I might visit someone else again.

Lumen

How quickly have you been ramping up the mileage?

It might just be overuse/not enough recovery time.

Redwest

I would recommend Aidan Woods on Pearse St
http://www.pearsestreetphysio.com
I had similar knee pain and it was due to a muscle imbalance on the quads I am working through a strength program now and it seems to be working.

Chris Peak

Where exactly is the problem? If you can draw a diagram, that would help.

AstraMonti

Lumen wrote: »

How quickly have you been ramping up the mileage?

It might just be overuse/not enough recovery time.

Well i overdid it at the first 3 months.. from december to feb that is, but after that i am taking it really handy, mainly just commuting and a few really not worth mentioning weekend spins.

AstraMonti

Chris Peak wrote: »

Where exactly is the problem? If you can draw a diagram, that would help.

Does this make any sense?

Chris Peak

I have to go soon. But, what do you mean by 'having trouble' with your knee? As in, when does this pain occur? And is there a lot of heat in the area after or during the exercise?
Could your cleats have moved position without you noticing?

I'll be back later. Here's something to look through in the meantime.
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/health-knee-care-and-maintenance-part-2-17445

AstraMonti

Chris Peak wrote: »

I have to go soon. But, what do you mean by 'having trouble' with your knee? As in, when does this pain occur? And is there a lot of heat in the area after or during the exercise?
Could your cleats have moved position without you noticing?

I'll be back later. Here's something to look through in the meantime.
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/health-knee-care-and-maintenance-part-2-17445

The pain occurs when i am putting strength on the cranks or when i am getting up stairs, occasionally when i walk. Its not getting worse through the exercise if i am not pushing it hard. If i go with a high cadence (more than 95-100) i can barely feel any pain. I 've checked the cleats and the pedals, nothing have changed.

Thanks for the article

lukester

Which part of the knee is causing pain, front/back/inside/outside?

Was there any change in your mileage or type of riding before it occurred, i.e. increased duration or increased hill work? Using higher gears?

Did you alter bike set-up in any way?

What did Paul Tansey diagnose?

AstraMonti

lukester wrote: »

Which part of the knee is causing pain, front/back/inside/outside?

Was there any change in your mileage or type of riding before it occurred, i.e. increased duration or increased hill work? Using higher gears?

Did you alter bike set-up in any way?

What did Paul Tansey diagnose?

Its front, internal from what i can understand, it doesn't feel the same all the time.

It occured after two days of a 150km flat spin. I rest it for a week and then stayed like that.

Nothing altered on the bike, no.

Paul Tansey's therapy didn't help at all, and he thought thats something with the tendons. I went and did an MRI scan which showed nothing. He also suggested some stretces which i was doing twice a day but unfortunately with no result.

Chips Lovell

Incorrect cleat alignment can also cause knee pain.

lukester

AstraMonti wrote: »

Its front, internal from what i can understand, it doesn't feel the same all the time.

It occured after two days of a 150km flat spin. I rest it for a week and then stayed like that.

2 days, so a total of 300km over 2 days?

What kind of your mileage were you doing previously?

It could be that you simply increased your mileage too quickly, and that you have an overuse injury. Or that the increased mileage highlighted some quirk in your set-up, bike or cleats. That bikeradar article should have advice on cleats, I read and re-read it several times for my own situtation.

If you can do shorter distances, at a higher cadence, and that doesn't cause pain, I'd start from there and build it up gradually. Your riding should be pain-free, so if it starts to hurt, cut it short and do a shorter distance next time. I'm not a professional, so YMMV, but this is the gist of the advice I've received from physios and Ms. Google.

I'd probably seek out a physio's advice too, although I've found them quite hit and miss.

freddie_

i think the exact same thing happened to me. first noticed it when cycling and eventually even little things like goin up stairs etc. went to really good physio and he got me on a spinning stand and traced the problem back to me ankle. it kept rolling in and as a result thats pressure on muscles in knee that are not really meant for cycling. the pain feels like its coming from the middle of the knee and sometimes like if someone lit a fire in the middle of the knee. not enjoyable at all. the way i sorted it out was by paying a visit to footmotion in castlebar. expensive but very quickly sorted out problem and within a month it was gone. worth looking into anyways http://www.footmotion.ie/. very sound in there and def know there stuff

AstraMonti

freddie_ wrote: »

i think the exact same thing happened to me. first noticed it when cycling and eventually even little things like goin up stairs etc. went to really good physio and he got me on a spinning stand and traced the problem back to me ankle. it kept rolling in and as a result thats pressure on muscles in knee that are not really meant for cycling. the pain feels like its coming from the middle of the knee and sometimes like if someone lit a fire in the middle of the knee. not enjoyable at all. the way i sorted it out was by paying a visit to footmotion in castlebar. expensive but very quickly sorted out problem and within a month it was gone. worth looking into anyways http://www.footmotion.ie/. very sound in there and def know there stuff

Its almost impossible for me to go there, but thanks for the info, appreciate it

Lumen

AstraMonti wrote:

Well i overdid it at the first 3 months.. from december to feb that is, but after that i am taking it really handy, mainly just commuting and a few really not worth mentioning weekend spins.

AstraMonti wrote:

[The knee pain] occured after two days of a 150km flat spin. I rest it for a week and then stayed like that.

Are you saying that 300km over two days is "taking it handy"? Or that your knee pain started in Feb?

AstraMonti

Lumen wrote: »

Are you saying that 300km over two days is "taking it handy"? Or that your knee pain started in Feb?

Erm no confusion! I did a 150kms spin, and after two days of that the pain started. From the end of feb its just commuting and a few 40kms spins, nothing too serious though.

DirkVoodoo

Yeah more than likely it is either an overuse injury or poor bike setup. It's amazing when you think about how precise a proper bike fit should be for each individual, and yet most bikes are not setup properly at all.

CSS do a bike fitting, might be worth a look. I would also heed your doctor's advice and lay off the bike for a bit.

As usual, these things are pretty impossible to diagnose over the internet, but the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

BostonB

freddie_ wrote: »

...he way i sorted it out was by paying a visit to footmotion in castlebar. expensive but very quickly sorted out problem and within a month it was gone. worth looking into anyways http://www.footmotion.ie/. very sound in there and def know there stuff

There must be somewhere like that in Dublin too?

Lumen

BostonB wrote: »

There must be somewhere like that in Dublin too?

IrishFit in Dun Laoghaire.

thebouldwhacker

Hey Astra, while I know cycling + running are different beasts, post your question here too.

Impossable to know from a chat room but what you have sounds like runners knee, pain under the knee cap, sore going up stairs etc. As you may guess the term runners knee covers MANY pains so thats not very helpful..




Anyway, I had this from over training during the winter, rest, proper warm up and warm down, gradual increase in duration and intensity (did I mention rest) and problem sorted. Of course that was me.. every pain is different. Best of luck.

Jawgap

I'm just back in the saddle this week having spent the last six weeks taking buses and cars after an operation to clean out my knee - I'd go with the advice of the doc.

I was warned not to go near the bike for 6 weeks and when I hopped back on my legs were wrecked (somebody's nicked my cycling legs) but the knee felt brilliant - in fact it didn't "feel" anything, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I reckon a couple of weeks and I'll find my cycling legs again and it'll be onwards and upwards from there - in short fitness is easier to recover than joint damage.

.....and in the mean time there should be a jersey colour for people such as me that indicates non-participation in the "Great Race"!!!!

Jawgap

......

Forgot to mention that while off the bike I followed an exercise programme laid out by the physio and did loads of swimming.

lukester

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm just back in the saddle this week having spent the last six weeks taking buses and cars after an operation to clean out my knee.

What did they 'clean out'?

Jawgap

lukester wrote: »

What did they 'clean out'?

Whatever crap was floating around in there!!! The doc makes two incisions then flushes out the knee with saline - I suffer from a long-standing injury and I get it done every few years.

Pinarello

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Hey Astra, while I know cycling + running are different beasts, post your question here too.

Impossable to know from a chat room but what you have sounds like runners knee, pain under the knee cap, sore going up stairs etc. As you may guess the term runners knee covers MANY pains so thats not very helpful..




Anyway, I had this from over training during the winter, rest, proper warm up and warm down, gradual increase in duration and intensity (did I mention rest) and problem sorted. Of course that was me.. every pain is different. Best of luck.

What you have sounds like a condition Chrondomalicia Patella,or as already pointed out runners knee.I have had this previously and spent a whole year racing on it.Result,i had to have an operation the following year.So i'd make a point in going to see a really good specialist or sports doctor,your gp can only do so much for you...;)

mattym

Hi Pinarello, Sorry to hijack the post but i had the same knee surgery as yourself 8 months ago. It was an injury from running, but since i havent really got back running, still some pain there so i'm hoping rest will sort it out. Was your recovery quick from the surgery?

AstraMonti

Redwest wrote: »

I would recommend Aidan Woods on Pearse St
http://www.pearsestreetphysio.com
I had similar knee pain and it was due to a muscle imbalance on the quads I am working through a strength program now and it seems to be working.

Just to update this if anyone is interested or having similar problems. I went to Pearse Street Physio and met with Niamh Kissane. She took her time trying to identify what's wrong with my knee and made me do several exercises. What she found was that my knee is fine (well obviously now is sore and with an inflammation) but the other parts are making it hurt. The most surprising was when i did few squats while i was looking at the mirror. My knee was all over the place and i couldn't keep it straight. I need to work a lot more in stretching and do exercises to strengthen my back, torso and hamstrings.

I just found out what to do with the 15mins in the morning browsing the internet..

Turbulent Bill

AstraMonti wrote: »

Just to update this if anyone is interested or having similar problems. I went to Pearse Street Physio and met with Niamh Kissane. She took her time trying to identify what's wrong with my knee and made me do several exercises. What she found was that my knee is fine (well obviously now is sore and with an inflammation) but the other parts are making it hurt. The most surprising was when i did few squats while i was looking at the mirror. My knee was all over the place and i couldn't keep it straight. I need to work a lot more in stretching and do exercises to strengthen my back, torso and hamstrings.

I just found out what to do with the 15mins in the morning browsing the internet..

Slightly OT, but I have to recommend the Pearse St. Physio (was treated by Aidan) for sports injuries. After no results from other physios / doctors for a persistent back injury he diagnosed the problem quickly, right as rain now.

FrankGrimes

AstraMonti wrote: »

Just to update this if anyone is interested or having similar problems. I went to Pearse Street Physio and met with Niamh Kissane. She took her time trying to identify what's wrong with my knee and made me do several exercises. What she found was that my knee is fine (well obviously now is sore and with an inflammation) but the other parts are making it hurt. The most surprising was when i did few squats while i was looking at the mirror. My knee was all over the place and i couldn't keep it straight. I need to work a lot more in stretching and do exercises to strengthen my back, torso and hamstrings.

I just found out what to do with the 15mins in the morning browsing the internet..

Good to hear you have a lead and something to work on. I've got very bad internal rotation of the knee (which is what the one leg squat is intended to test) when both running and cycling but the pain I was getting right in the same spot you highlighted in your diagram has completely gone away since getting a proper bike fitting at IrishFit. I was previously hunched on the bike and it meant my knee was coming up too far which put a lot of strain on the knee at the top of the stroke when starting the downward push. Now that I'm higher on the saddle and further back my knee is more over the pedal spindle than in front of it and the knee doesn't come up so high so it doesn't take nearly as much strain on the knee to get a powerful downward push. Haven't had so much as a twitch with the knee since then.

I'm working on core stability and flexibility exercises to help with the internal knee rotation, but even with that sorted, I would probably still have the knee problem as the root cause of too much strain would not have been addressed.

This is why I have given up on physios that do not have the facilities to recreate the activity I am having the problem with - if they don't have a threadmill with video analysis or a turbo trainer to record the bike they don't have the full story, which is why I'm a convert to IrishFit as they can look at it all holistically and specific to the sporting activity that is causing the problem.

So, in addition to the exercises, I'd at least to a self-assessment of bike fit. If your knee is coming up so high it gets close to 90 degrees at the top, I'd play around with increasing saddle height and pushing the saddle back 5mm at a time.

AstraMonti

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Good to hear you have a lead and something to work on. I've got very bad internal rotation of the knee (which is what the one leg squat is intended to test) when both running and cycling but the pain I was getting right in the same spot you highlighted in your diagram has completely gone away since getting a proper bike fitting at IrishFit. I was previously hunched on the bike and it meant my knee was coming up too far which put a lot of strain on the knee at the top of the stroke when starting the downward push. Now that I'm higher on the saddle and further back my knee is more over the pedal spindle than in front of it and the knee doesn't come up so high so it doesn't take nearly as much strain on the knee to get a powerful downward push. Haven't had so much as a twitch with the knee since then.

I'm working on core stability and flexibility exercises to help with the internal knee rotation, but even with that sorted, I would probably still have the knee problem as the root cause of too much strain would not have been addressed.

This is why I have given up on physios that do not have the facilities to recreate the activity I am having the problem with - if they don't have a threadmill with video analysis or a turbo trainer to record the bike they don't have the full story, which is why I'm a convert to IrishFit as they can look at it all holistically and specific to the sporting activity that is causing the problem.

So, in addition to the exercises, I'd at least to a self-assessment of bike fit. If your knee is coming up so high it gets close to 90 degrees at the top, I'd play around with increasing saddle height and pushing the saddle back 5mm at a time.

I hear you I am actually booked for a bike fit today in IrishFit, really looking forward to it as especially with the new bike, i feel i am all over the place.

FrankGrimes

Good luck with it AstraMonti, hope you find Leo's advice as helpful as I have.

tomc

Just booked appointment for tomorrow at Pearse street, saddle fidget induced knee injury, there goes the ROK.....hopefully not the Etape....:mad:

DirkVoodoo

tomc wrote: »

Just booked appointment for tomorrow at Pearse street, saddle fidget induced knee injury, there goes the ROK.....hopefully not the Etape....:mad:

Ah pants! Is it really bad? Get well soon dude!

Murph100

Sh1te, too low or too high ?

tomc wrote: »

Just booked appointment for tomorrow at Pearse street, saddle fidget induced knee injury, there goes the ROK.....hopefully not the Etape....:mad:

AstraMonti

tomc wrote: »

Just booked appointment for tomorrow at Pearse street, saddle fidget induced knee injury, there goes the ROK.....hopefully not the Etape....:mad:

I will be there at 9:30

Ok back from the fitting. It definetely worth the money. Not from so much the result (which is great, i ll get to that too) but from the advices and all the information the guy was giving. I was there for almost two hours and i am still processing the information.

To the changes now: Moved the saddle 4(!) cms up, which made a huge difference on the angle on the knee and at the same time we moved the saddle 1.5 cm in front, which compensated the moving up. As the physio told me as well, he said that i have to work a lot on my hips and hamstrings and that would sort out the knee problem. Surprisingly my knee motion (if you are looking it from the front) is almost straight, which is strange because when i do the squats, my right knee is waaaay off.

I am really happy with it and honestly i can't recommend it enough. The guy is just great and extremely helpful.

scottreynolds

AstraMonti wrote: »

I will be there at 9:30

Ok back from the fitting. It definetely worth the mine. Not from so much the result (which is great, i ll get to that too) but from the advices and all the information the guy was giving. I was there for almost two hours and i am still processing the information.

To the changes now: Moved the saddle 4(!) cms up, which made a huge difference on the angle on the knee and at the same time we moved the saddle 1.5 cm in front, which compensated the moving up. As the physio told me as well, he said that i have to work a lot on my hips and hamstrings and that would sort out the knee problem. Surprisingly my knee motion (if you are looking it from the front) is almost straight, which is strange because when i do the squats, my right knee is waaaay off.

I am really happy with it and honestly i can't recommend it enough. The guy is just great and extremely helpful.

Thanks for the info... I'm pretty sure almost everyone really like the services they get there. Sean, the owner, is a sound guy. I bought some stuff there and they always have good advice.. Perhaps when I get my TT bie I'll get them to help me out I had a running gait analysis there and it was equally good

Gasco

I would like to second (or is it third) the reommendation for Irishfit. Recurring knee problems kept me off the bike for a year, an MRI and extensive physio got me back on it late last year, but the pain kept kept coming back. Went to see Leo during the week and he corrected a multitude of set up issues. His diagnosis of my overall body mechanics / weaknessess tied in with what i was told by my physio, and his recommedations to correct these will require an annoying, but necessary amount of work.
Though being told that one has an unstable pelvis and weak buttocks does not do a lot for the self - confidence.